Do you use Elude?

[Papaschtroumpf]

I started my DB/SR scrapper a long time ago but only went back to her recently.

I think I lifted the build from these forums although I don't remember which thread.

 

The build has Elude well slotted but I don't fell like it's very useful, although it is currently not slotted because I am lvl 38.

What I hate about it is that it detoggles you, so not only do you have no endurance but you're "naked"

would the Atlas Medaillion create a "reserve" of End or would it get drained too?

 

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Edited March 10, 2021 by Papaschtroumpf

[SwitchFade]

No.

[Thrax]

Almost never.  I for sure wouldn't slot it.  It is a good place to throw a proc though if you have an extra power choice and need the spot.

 

[hejtmane]

I have not used elude since the days of perma elude worthless power like most tier 9s are

[tidge]

No.

[Papaschtroumpf]

As I said in the OP, this is a build I think I got off the forum and liked at the time, but I just restarted playing this character and have forgotten some of its specificities.

Elude is 4-slotted with LoTGs. 7.5% global of course, but them focus on defense and recharge, which would imply it is intended to be used

There 4 other defense powers 4-slotted with LoTGs, not surprising for a defense-based build trying to achieve positional softcap (fully IO'd all 3 positional defenses are above 50%), but even Combat Jumping is 4-slotted even though it only adds a 3% margin above the softcap.

My natural inclination would have been to use the default slots in CJ and Elude for a +7.5% global recharge and leave it at that

 

The 4 LoTGs bonus is +9% accuracy, so I think this particular build was going after high accuracy bonus (+90% bonus total)

Did that person hate to miss or dos Dual Blades come with an accuracy handicap? I vaguely remember possibly missing more at low levels, but it's been a while

 

TBH I'm not 100% sure where I would put the found slots, the build has been quite good, but I like to understand why people did things a certain way when I borrow a build (and often tweak it to suit my preferences)

[Bill Z Bubba]

As a fellow junky of LotGs, I'm guessing that yes, they were going for the ACC bonuses but that much is overkill. Add me to the group that states elude is a useless pick unless you fight a LOT of rularuu regularly or just need a throwaway - get out of a mess - panic button where you can slot a single LotG +recharge. Personally, I get far more use out of single slotted hover and afterburner than I ever would from elude.

[tidge]

This is just my opinion, but I have always thought 4-slotting a defensive power with four LotG to be overkill:

• Accuracy Bonuses come along from other places (like Very Rare sets)
• Enhancement Diversification is a thing, such that the 'extra' Defense is usually quite diminished relative to using the slot somewhere else

If there is some other benefit that you really want (lower Endurance cost, faster Recharge) then I suggest either Boosting the Shield Wall pieces, or franken-slotting (and using fewer slots)

 

Obviously: builds for niche content may want/need those specific accuracy bonuses, but I think there are other ways to get Accuracy (or +ToHit)

[Papaschtroumpf]

Funny enough, Elude lasts so long I keep forgetting to watch for it blinking, then get fully detoggled and die. Most of the time it's because I  moved on to the next group forgetting I was still under its effects 🙂

I don't have that problem with Lightform on my PB, it's both perma and shorter duration.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, tidge said:

This is just my opinion, but I have always thought 4-slotting a defensive power with four LotG to be overkill:

• Accuracy Bonuses come along from other places (like Very Rare sets)

Raises a good question: How much +ACC should one shoot for if they're usually fighting +4s? (He asks, sheepishly, having looked at how much his current build is pushing....)

Edited March 10, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[tidge]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Raises a good question: How much +ACC should one shoot for if they're usually fighting +4s? (He asks, sheepishly having looked at how much his current build is pushing....)

I really like this question, as I've been on a kick of playing low-level TFs with +4 (on 8-man PUGs).

 

Without doing any math, for me the "breaking point" is usually when I see the AoE power that I was so proud of franken-slotting is missing more than half of the targets.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

I really like this question, as I've been on a kick of playing low-level TFs with +4 (on 8-man PUGs).

 

Without doing any math, for me the "breaking point" is usually when I see the AoE power that I was so proud of franken-slotting is missing more than half of the targets.

Currently Mids is showing Followup with 190% ACC and most attacks at 176%. No base tohit buff to stack on that until followup lands and stacks and then it just gets silly.

 

So I was hoping for a hard number at 50 but unless someone beats me to it, I'll go bust out the equations and charts and see what I see to stay at the tohit cap against +4 bosses.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Another thought on slotting 4 LotGs instead of 3 is when you're concerned about the end cost of toggles.

 

Slotting def/end - def/end/rec - def - def+globalrec you end up with +57.53% (ED reduced) to def, +47.7% to end. +21.6% to rec but that's irrelevant.

 

For a scrapper, this takes, say, focused fighting from base 13.88% defense and .24/sec end cost to 21.86 defense and .17/sec end cost.

 

If you three slot it:

def/end - def - def+globalrec = 21.39 defense and .2/sec end cost

def/end - def/end/rec - def+globalrec = 20.01 defense and .17/sec end cost

 

True that the loss of def is pretty negligible on the 1st 3-slot option but it's always been worth it to me for the extra endred and the +acc that comes with it.

 

[Troo]

174%

[Bill Z Bubba]

52 minutes ago, Troo said:

174%

= acc needed with no tohit buff for +4 boss 95% chance to hit?

 

If so, you're a good dude and my slotting appears awesome! Accidentally, of course.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

174%

Oh man Troo, it's really only 173.666462% 🤪

 

On mine I set Mids to a base to hit of 39% (i.e. what it is vs +4 mobs)  Then played around until I got to slightly over 95% with Follow Up showing in Mids.  That includes iirc, a Kismet +6% and 4 Global +15% accuracy from Purple sets in my attacks.  Most of the other powers has enough slotted accuracy that with the above boosts (+60% accuracy and +6% To Hit) I had somewhere between 90 and 95% final chance in Mids.  Which in turn if FU landed that pushed all my final hit chances over 95%.  If my logs (or I otherwise see a whiff fest occurring) I'll turn on Tactics which alleviates the issue unless I get seriously debuffed somehow despite softcap defenses.  If it's serious debuff I either break off or use Yellows.  Can't recall ever using Geas for this reason but that accolade also includes a +10% To Hit buff.

 

Only my Focused Fighting used 4 slots --> 3 LotG and a Kismet.  The rest (2 toggles, 3 passives, weave and maneuvers) were 3 slotted either LotG or Shield Wall.  CJ was its own thing and I don't recall what or how it was slotted beyond being fairly certain it had 1 of 5 LotG def/increased recharge in it. (Sucks being without a functioning computer)

 

No Elude.  Haven't had Elude on the first build for a long, long time.  Not even as a mule.  I have, at least in Mids when I had internet and a functional computer, experimented around with unusual builds some of which probably used Elude.

 

You can't even really use it vs Rularuu to make them miss.  Their insane To Hit is +100% on top of their base 50% means you need about +100% defense just to get back to where you were before.  Elude fully enhanced, afaik, is about +70 to 75%.  Leaving you needing another 25 to 30% defense from other sources to remain softcapped.  Reasonably doable yes but not without more buffs.  

 

Edit:  and the Rularuu if bosses and +4's you really need the soft cap as their accuracy will make it painful if you aren't close to flooring them (1.4 × 1.3 = 1.82 x final defense value).  Your health and scaling resistance will be stressed by Rularuu at or above 35+% final hit chances. (Assumes you've used Elude and therefore 15 to 20 shy of the cap)

 

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Too much math ...

[Papaschtroumpf]

If you don't use Elude, its endurance cost is a moot point 🙂 I get your point about other powers.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Papaschtroumpf

[Papaschtroumpf]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

174%

Are you referring to the number showing up in the info pane when hovering over a power? across from the End Cost number?

 

Without the LoTGs (emptied the slots in Mids), without Blinding Feint, the lowest accuracy I see there is 153%, with some powers as high as 181%

With Blinding Feint (which I try to use constantly) the 153% jumps to 174%, add in the Nerve incarnate and I get to 211%, put the LoTGs back in and it's 242%

 

So I think my acc bonus being cut from +90% to +45 is till OK?

 

Not sure what I might do with my new found slots. At least 3 of them off Elude, but also 3 of them off Combat Jump I think. Maybe 3-slot Reactive Defense everywhere for less End use a little bit of Def and minor some extra HP?

 

 

[Papaschtroumpf]

1 hour ago, Papaschtroumpf said:

If you don't use Elude, its endurance cost is a moot point 🙂 I get your point about other powers.

and several of the other powers are Auto

[Troo]

I am sooo sorry. I meant to come back to this and confess I totally made that number up. After all, 54% of statistics are made up on the spot.

 

@Bill Z Bubba @Doomguide2005 @Papaschtroumpf

 

That said, it actually feels about right and around what I shoot for.

[Papaschtroumpf]

LOL you got me

[Doomguide2005]

12 hours ago, Papaschtroumpf said:

Funny enough, Elude lasts so long I keep forgetting to watch for it blinking, then get fully detoggled and die. Most of the time it's because I  moved on to the next group forgetting I was still under its effects 🙂

I don't have that problem with Lightform on my PB, it's both perma and shorter duration.

 

I used to use Geas of the Kind Ones and Eye of the Magus (Archmage) to deal with the Elude crash.  This was far enough back that real numbers and combat attributes were not a thing yet ... .  So knowing what I know now I would click Archmage when Elude starts flashing (you just boosted def and resistance by +30%) followed by clicking Geas (recovery +1000% and +10 to hit as well as -10% def).  The big boost to recovery means your endurance will rise very rapidly once the crash debuff ends and Archmage will keep your defense relatively high until you retoggle -> 30 (magus) + 8 (passives) + 2×3 (def uniques) - 10 (geas debuff) = ~34% so pop a luck to hit the soft cap and keep fighting and getting your toggles back up.

[ninja surprise]

I'll usually take Elude and put a single EndMod in it. I'll use it on the rare occasions that a Sapper gets a lucky hit or I otherwise completely forget to watch my Endurance and run out and toggle-drop. With one click I'm soft-capped again and gaining endurance and back to Scrappin'... easier than running around like a friggin squishie trying to click blues and get the toggles back on.

[tidge]

On 3/10/2021 at 6:52 PM, Papaschtroumpf said:

Not sure what I might do with my new found slots. At least 3 of them off Elude, but also 3 of them off Combat Jump I think. Maybe 3-slot Reactive Defense everywhere for less End use a little bit of Def and minor some extra HP?

 

Reactive Defenses is the only Defense set that I go out of my way to 6-slot. I just cannot defend against the Endurance Discount and the +Recharge. The next closest defense set that I consider multi-sloting is Shield Wall (because of boosting), but that is usually 'broken' by adding LotG +Recharge pieces.

 

I didn't open your specific build, so I don't know what you did with Build Up, but I see a lot of builds that appear to ignore this power. Personally, I always try to 6-Slot it with the Gaussian's set (for the set bonuses) , but I have a couple of very tight builds where the equivalent power choice only has the Gaussian's %proc and a common Recharge piece. Typically this is a long-recharge power which will always be at the 90% ceiling for trigger the %proc no matter how much Recharge you cram into it.