Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, GM Lines said:

It would be good to have testers keep hurling themselves at odd objects to see if anything behaves strangely.

One of my favorite pass times!

[CaptainLupis]

16 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

A Crash Course in Collison Detection!

 

Objects Speed Phase allows travel through:

Enemy targets

NPC targets

Friendly targets

Moving vehicles

Atlas Park Blimp

Paragon City Tram/Rail Car

 

Objects Speed Phase does not allow travel through:

Traffic Lights, Benches, Newspaper Stands, Light Poles, Bus Stops, cars, trees, fences (wooden and metal), ladders, dumpsters, fountains, information kiosks, rocks, bushes/shrubs, 

 

 

Edit: Created list for reference from testing.

Can you run through cardboard boxes? I have lost count of how many times my Incarnate level heroes, who have defeated gods, monsters, aliens and giant robots, have been brought to a grinding halt by an empty cardboard box...

[Troo]

I heard there might be easter eggs in the train, blimp and flyers.

 

Oops that's not feedback. My bad.

 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Troo

[QuiJon]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Firstly, Fly with Afterburner was fast, yes, but it required a huge investment - 3 power picks and several enhancement slots - to truly maximize. That's way too much for a travel power, and that's why you can now achieve the same thing with one just one power pick and minimal extra slotting.

I was only looking on live which caps run speed at 92.5 percent but gives numbers of each individual buff to speed elements. And I am not a good numbers guy, but the best i can figure is that at a permanent speed cap of 120 mph all the speeder needs to achieve that cap is to have 2 invention IOs+5 in SS and 1 in swift. To my best estimate SS boosts 50.11 which 50.11x94.8=97.6mph granted by SS plus 14.32 for base movement speed plus 7.14 for swift with 1 invention IO in it. That would total 119.07mph with nothing but 1 power choice, 1 extra slot and 2 inherent powers. So yes flight can hit 87mph now with minimal slotting but in speed of travel doing so i am not going to be 18-32 MPH behind flights easily achievable top speed all the time instead of the maybe 8mph i was behind them normally picking the multiple powers and maybe adding 1-2 extra slots. 

 

Now it might seem like that is a favor in giving us that cap raise and easier ability to hit it. But for me over all travel powers are about theme of my character and how well i get around on them.  I was willing to make that investment in afterburner for one reason only, between the speed boost and the nature of fly compared to SS or SJ i was still reaching my locations in a acceptable time frame as the other travel powers do. Essentially i was not making a team wait for me because i was flying. And this was the main issue with fly back in the day. And it was the reason why we got afterburner to begin with was to close that gap in travel speeds so they all worked closer together. 

 

So all i am saying is that i think the cooldown on afterburner should be left at the 10 seconds if it must have one, or at least double the duration of it to 1 minute. At least at 1 minute people can likely get the speed boosts for long enough to cross most zones but maybe the shard. Buti fail to see why i should be punished for taking flight by simply making what as you say is a somewhat passive experience (in that i can reach an altitude and then just hit the run lock) take even longer and leave teams waiting even longer at the destination for fliers to show up. For the main travel powers all that should be looking at is that they should all work mostly equal to get you where you want to go. Travel is not game play and one should not work to get you anywhere any faster then the others, or at least not in a major way.  Which is why i say if AB was perma on a toggle, at my top speed a SS would still be moving 18mph faster then me. When before with AB they were only moving like 8 mph faster then me and already beating me to a door. I kind of feel in the dynamic that is SS advantage enough over fliers and jumpers. 

[QuiJon]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

At Level 50, with no enhancements or set bonus on Beta right now, my character has:

Base = 19.33 MPH running speed (Base 14.32 MPH + 5.01 MPH Swift).

Base + Sprint = 33.65 MPH (Sprint adds 7.16 MPH)

Base + Sprint + Super Speed OR Speed of Sound = 83.76 MPH (Both SS and SoS adds 50.11 MPH)

 

Putting 1 Level 50 Generic Run Speed IO in to Swift, Sprint, and SS gets me to 110.17 MPH.

 

It is almost too easy to hit the speed cap using Super Speed this way - and this is without factoring in set bonuses. 

 

Also, @Bopper made a spreadsheet that breaks down flight speed here:

 

Edit furthermore: You can also test these changes on the beta shard as well.

That is about what i cam out with on live as well. Right now live caps run speed at 92.5 percent. Meaning that even with all the investment required to cap fly speed currently, you really cant get closer then being 5mph slower then what is essentially no investment on a speedster. The new system might make it much easier to reach fly cap, which i am fine with. However essentially with the increase in run cap a speedster now achieves 120mph all the time with 1 run IO in swift, sprint, and 2 run IOs +5s in SS. So basicly the investment of 1 power choice and 1 additional slot when you figure swift and sprint and inherent. So now every flier will always be atleast 18 mph behind a speedster and on longer trips part of the way up to 32 mph behind. So these changes put us right back to being the slow asses we were when the game launched before they added AB to begin with. 

[Captain Citadel]

Could we perhaps get permanent access to the Afterburner toggle if we have taken Hover, Fly, and EM? That way there's some incentive to invest in the Flight pool to get the most out of it.

Even with permanently capped flight speed, characters using flight as their preferred mode of travel are going to be slower than the jumpers and speedsters. And now Super Jump has been buffed to the point where they can reach all the same places as flyers and teleporters.

I don't see the harm in making the speed gap between Flight and Speed/Leaping narrower without outright removing the advantages of the latter two pools. Just because Fly is faster in Beta than Fly + Afterburner on Live doesn't mean these changes to Flight should be held beyond all criticism.

[Glacier Peak]

13 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

That is about what i cam out with on live as well. Right now live caps run speed at 92.5 percent. Meaning that even with all the investment required to cap fly speed currently, you really cant get closer then being 5mph slower then what is essentially no investment on a speedster. The new system might make it much easier to reach fly cap, which i am fine with. However essentially with the increase in run cap a speedster now achieves 120mph all the time with 1 run IO in swift, sprint, and 2 run IOs +5s in SS. So basicly the investment of 1 power choice and 1 additional slot when you figure swift and sprint and inherent. So now every flier will always be atleast 18 mph behind a speedster and on longer trips part of the way up to 32 mph behind. So these changes put us right back to being the slow asses we were when the game launched before they added AB to begin with. 

The numbers I provided were from the Beta server. And your analysis of travel power parities are in line with what I have seen described by our HC team (though I strongly disagree with your conclusion, as myself and others have stated many times in this thread). SS is fastest, followed by SJ, the Fly. In the middle (or fastest) you have Teleport. They all come with different levels of investment to reach their maximum potential, but the powers themselves have inherent benefits and trade offs. Super Speed is the fastest in a straight line, SJ can come out on top (literally) if there is vertically in your direction of travel, Fly may even beat both of them if the destination is located at the top of a building. Teleport can do all the things with enough slotting and point and click action. 

 

The speed caps for all travel powers have increased (Jump height remains the same, albeit double jump makes this moot). So how you came to conclude that these changes "brought us right back to being slow", I am at a loss.

 

Edit:

 

Further cost/benefit analysis on travel powers:

 

Super Speed has the highest cap (reached easily with minimum investment). It's trade off as a travel power is that it cannot travel vertically (short of the jump boost you get after 4 seconds of travel).

Super Jump allows for very fast horizontal and vertical travel, but slower than SS and it's verticality is limited to Double Jump's 30 second timer (though hitting a zone ceiling can be achieved with proper positioning).

Fly is third in terms of speed cap, but again, as a power it allows a player maximum freedom of movement. You can literally go anywhere with fly - the trade off is it not as fast as SS or SJ. UNLESS you activate the 30 second Afterburner ability, which then gives a player a faster than Super Jump speed cap level of movement.

Teleport is the fastest in my opinion and in terms of distance traveled over time, but it requires a player actively engage in the movement by clicking the location of the next jaunt. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[TygerDarkstorm]

8 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Could we perhaps get permanent access to the Afterburner toggle if we have taken Hover, Fly, and EM? That way there's some incentive to invest in the Flight pool to get the most out of it.

Even with permanently capped flight speed, characters using flight as their preferred mode of travel are going to be slower than the jumpers and speedsters. And now Super Jump has been buffed to the point where they can reach all the same places as flyers and teleporters.

I don't see the harm in making the speed gap between Flight and Speed/Leaping narrower without outright removing the advantages of the latter two pools. Just because Fly is faster in Beta than Fly + Afterburner on Live doesn't mean these changes to Flight should be held beyond all criticism.

I don't understand how this is still being missed. If you have chosen Fly as your travel power, then you automatically get the Afterburner toggle anyway. It shows up on the pop up bar same as jaunt for Speed of Sound or whatever.

[QuiJon]

4 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

The numbers I provided were from the Beta server. And your analysis of travel power parities are in line with what I have seen described by our HC team (though I strongly disagree with your conclusion, as myself and others have stated many times in this thread). SS is fastest, followed by SJ, the Fly. In the middle (or fastest) you have Teleport. They all come with different levels of investment to reach their maximum potential, but the powers themselves have inherent benefits and trade offs. Super Speed is the fastest in a straight line, SJ can come out on top (literally) if there is vertically in your direction of travel, Fly may even beat both of them if the destination is located at the top of a building. Teleport can do all the things with enough slotting and point and click action. 

 

The speed caps for all travel powers have increased (Jump height remains the same, albeit double jump makes this moot). So how you came to conclude that these changes "brought us right back to being slow", I am at a loss.

Well this is where we disagree then. First off i am not sure i have ever had a door at the top of a building, accept maybe grandville and lets face it, SS have easy to get jet packs and such for those places anyway. But 99 percent of the doors in this game are at easily reachable locations in the maps it is just a matter of going from point a to b. 

 

On live currently, even with AB running and hitting maybe 84-85mph i am routinely beat to doors by runners and jumpers. Just right now not by alot. Run speed is capped at 92.5 mph i am not sure on jump speed or how it is measured in its leaping mechanic. But they do beat fly still right now for sure even with AB running. The raise in speed caps takes making a huge investment in flight to keep up and lose, into a smaller investment in flight to not keep up and lose by ALOT more. 

 

I can handle saying "oh well your 5 or 10 mph slower because you can just hit auto run" or whatever. It at least leaves a bit of flavor to the travel pools, but no i dont think that a 20-32 mph difference is fair. You are getting to the point where people will pick a travel power based on how it works vs what they want to use. 

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I don't understand how this is still being missed. If you have chosen Fly as your travel power, then you automatically get the Afterburner toggle anyway. It shows up on the pop up bar same as jaunt for Speed of Sound or whatever.

They object to it having a cooldown.

[Captain Citadel]

2 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

I don't understand how this is still being missed. If you have chosen Fly as your travel power, then you automatically get the Afterburner toggle anyway. It shows up on the pop up bar same as jaunt for Speed of Sound or whatever.

I'm not missing that fact. But the new Afterburner will not be a permanent toggle, and the net result of all these changes has effectively widened the speed gap to where it was before Afterburner was initially created to mitigate it. I'm suggesting a compromise for it to be permanently toggleable if we have Hover, Fly, and Evasive Maneuvers in our builds. Speed and Leaping are going to be even faster than Flight than they already are without requiring a deep investment in their pools. It seems fair to me that people who do choose to invest in Flight should be able to narrow that gap even a little bit.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, QuiJon said:

Well this is where we disagree then. First off i am not sure i have ever had a door at the top of a building, accept maybe grandville and lets face it, SS have easy to get jet packs and such for those places anyway. But 99 percent of the doors in this game are at easily reachable locations in the maps it is just a matter of going from point a to b. 

 

On live currently, even with AB running and hitting maybe 84-85mph i am routinely beat to doors by runners and jumpers. Just right now not by alot. Run speed is capped at 92.5 mph i am not sure on jump speed or how it is measured in its leaping mechanic. But they do beat fly still right now for sure even with AB running. The raise in speed caps takes making a huge investment in flight to keep up and lose, into a smaller investment in flight to not keep up and lose by ALOT more. 

 

I can handle saying "oh well your 5 or 10 mph slower because you can just hit auto run" or whatever. It at least leaves a bit of flavor to the travel pools, but no i dont think that a 20-32 mph difference is fair. You are getting to the point where people will pick a travel power based on how it works vs what they want to use. 

Example hero side of vertically located mission: Mission 7 (the finale) to the Graveyard Shift Story Arc provides players the option to enter the mission either through the ground floor or through the rooftop access. Yes, you can take the stairs.

Example red side of vertically located mission: well, probably half of all contact missions I would say...

Example gold side... you get the picture?

 

But I agree with your first point - all mission entrances are accessible.

 

As for your selection of travel power on Live, that is your discretion so I don't see a point in arguing one way or another. You can choose to take a power or not, boost set bonuses or not, get beat to the door or not, care about how fast you get to a mission or not... but your incorrect that it takes a huge investment to make the Flight changes on beta occur. It is not hard, you must see this if you got on the beta server and tested this. 

 

And finally, you are right to assume that people will pick a travel power based on their preference. They may think about how the power works, they may compare and contrast the benefits versus the costs, they may even make a handy table to explain to folks who aren't willing or able to go to the beta server to test out the proposed changes to see how great these changes really are, but still provide their input on those changes...

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

4 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I'm not missing that fact. But the new Afterburner will not be a permanent toggle, and the net result of all these changes has effectively widened the speed gap to where it was before Afterburner was initially created to mitigate it. I'm suggesting a compromise for it to be permanently toggleable if we have Hover, Fly, and Evasive Maneuvers in our builds. Speed and Leaping are going to be even faster than Flight than they already are without requiring a deep investment in their pools. It seems fair to me that people who do choose to invest in Flight should be able to narrow that gap even a little bit.

Double jump has a cooldown too. Fly has numerous advantages over the other two and is the "easy" travel power option. Plus, I've seen it proven over and over in this thread that the new beta changes to flight have it as being faster than flight as it is on live. Not all of the travel powers should be equalized and I completely understand where it is the devs are coming from on the matter and why they did things the way they did. Fly allows you to stay in 3D space and out of danger permanently--Super Jump, even with Double Jump, does not allow you to do so.

[QuiJon]

15 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Super Speed has the highest cap (reached easily with minimum investment). It's trade off as a travel power is that it cannot travel vertically (short of the jump boost you get after 4 seconds of travel).

A limitation that was always easily overcome by taking CJ, or getting free jump packs, or cheap jet packs. Face it the "vertical" limitations of SS were negated long ago this new mechanic just even further makes this "limitation" moot. 

17 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Super Jump allows for very fast horizontal and vertical travel, but slower than SS and it's verticality is limited to Double Jump's 30 second timer (though hitting a zone ceiling can be achieved with proper positioning).

It is slower then SS and still even against Fly+AB currently on our servers normally would rank you second to the door behind speedsters on any given team. It has more then enough vertical to be useful on its own and over come most any limitations of maps and more then enough speed to beat fly+ab to a door. And on beta its speed has also been increased with ours so it likely will stay second no matter what. 

 

Speed and leaping are getting perma buffs to their abilities and some utilities built in to make them even easier. Afterburner was provided to fliers because fly was considered to slow in comparison to the other travel powers. I do agree the investment to get the benefit was to high and love the more trim lined means to achieving the cap. However in raising the caps, and making it just as easy for speedsters and jumpers to reach their caps on a perma level, leaving afterburner as a click instead of the toggle it was is as a result pushing fly back down from what it originally gained when afterburner was added. Essentially your giving us afterburner for free (sort of) but making the existance of it moot by boosting everyone else back to the levels they used to exceed fly by before AB was added. Its a net nerf to fly.

[Glacier Peak]

34 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I'm not missing that fact. But the new Afterburner will not be a permanent toggle, and the net result of all these changes has effectively widened the speed gap to where it was before Afterburner was initially created to mitigate it. I'm suggesting a compromise for it to be permanently toggleable if we have Hover, Fly, and Evasive Maneuvers in our builds. Speed and Leaping are going to be even faster than Flight than they already are without requiring a deep investment in their pools. It seems fair to me that people who do choose to invest in Flight should be able to narrow that gap even a little bit.

Looking at travel power speed caps, let me lay out the numbers:

 

On Live (MPH):

Running: 92.50

Leaping: 78.18 (92.50 using Take-off in conjunction with Mighty Leap)

Flying: 87.95

Teleport: ???

 

On Beta (MPH):

Running: 120.24

Leaping: 101.80 (110.39 using Take-off in conjunction with Mighty Leap)

Flying: 102.27 (using Afterburner)

Teleport: ???

 

As you can see, each travel power increased its speed cap with these proposed changes. If anyone has distance over time numbers for teleport, I would appreciate them.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Glacier Peak
Leaping speed was incorrectly stated

[Captain Citadel]

4 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Plus, I've seen it proven over and over in this thread that the new beta changes to flight have it as being faster than flight as it is on live.

"It's faster in Beta than it is on Live, so you have no room to complain" is kind of a moot point when the other travel pools are being upgraded to the point where they will have a greater speed advantage than they do now.

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

A limitation that was always easily overcome by taking CJ, or getting free jump packs, or cheap jet packs. Face it the "vertical" limitations of SS were negated long ago this new mechanic just even further makes this "limitation" moot. 

It is slower then SS and still even against Fly+AB currently on our servers normally would rank you second to the door behind speedsters on any given team. It has more then enough vertical to be useful on its own and over come most any limitations of maps and more then enough speed to beat fly+ab to a door. And on beta its speed has also been increased with ours so it likely will stay second no matter what. 

 

Speed and leaping are getting perma buffs to their abilities and some utilities built in to make them even easier. Afterburner was provided to fliers because fly was considered to slow in comparison to the other travel powers. I do agree the investment to get the benefit was to high and love the more trim lined means to achieving the cap. However in raising the caps, and making it just as easy for speedsters and jumpers to reach their caps on a perma level, leaving afterburner as a click instead of the toggle it was is as a result pushing fly back down from what it originally gained when afterburner was added. Essentially your giving us afterburner for free (sort of) but making the existance of it moot by boosting everyone else back to the levels they used to exceed fly by before AB was added. Its a net nerf to fly.

Please, please, please just get on the beta server and test out your hypothesis. Run a mission using Super Speed, try a task force with a couple team mates and see how Fly with Afterburner works, try out Double Jump when moving across the Shadow Shard. You will most certainly change your beliefs/assumptions/opinions after trying out the changes.

[QuiJon]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

This is laughable hyperbole.

No, it depends on what you choose to look at as important. I want to be able to create a character and a theme and not have to design that character around avoiding a terrible choice of travel powers. So for example, to me, it would make most sense to make a magically endowed character use fly as a travel power vs speed or jumping. However if fly is horrible compared to speed or jumping and lags to far behind then i and others would most likely either have to live with being punished to get the theme or break the theme and take something more useful. And this happened ALL THE TIME back on live before afterburner was added. I could be on teams of 8 all day and be lucky if i saw one other flier because it was considered to slow.

 

Suddenly afterburner gets added and i am on teams these days all the time with fliers. The skies are lousy with them because even though it might have taken a bigger investment, you could balance your desire to fly with being atleast a respectable 3rd place in speed. So if the goal is to not leave people waiting around just for you to get to the door, and you raise flights cap but raise the caps of speed and jumping even more and make it easy for those caps to be hit, then over all its a nerf when you are comparing travel times. Sure it is a buff to flight but flight is now slower compared to jumping and speed overall. 

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

"It's faster in Beta than it is on Live, so you have no room to complain" is kind of a moot point when the other travel pools are being upgraded to the point where they will have a greater speed advantage than they do now.

Again, the difference in when you will arrive at your mission is a matter of seconds. You’re complaining about a non issue.

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 minute ago, Captain Citadel said:

"It's faster in Beta than it is on Live, so you have no room to complain" is kind of a moot point when the other travel pools are being upgraded to the point where they will have a greater speed advantage than they do now.

You chose that one line and pulled it out of context of my entire post. @Glacier Peak even posted a comparison just above that shows the further details. Furthermore, the main point of my post that you chose to skip over is that flying is by far the easiest and safest travel power to use, even with the changes to the other travel powers being made in beta. Fly should be slower than the other powers for those reasons, short of being able to use AB to give it short bursts that boost it.

[Wavicle]

Just now, QuiJon said:

No, it depends on what you choose to look at as important. I want to be able to create a character and a theme and not have to design that character around avoiding a terrible choice of travel powers. So for example, to me, it would make most sense to make a magically endowed character use fly as a travel power vs speed or jumping. However if fly is horrible compared to speed or jumping and lags to far behind then i and others would most likely either have to live with being punished to get the theme or break the theme and take something more useful. And this happened ALL THE TIME back on live before afterburner was added. I could be on teams of 8 all day and be lucky if i saw one other flier because it was considered to slow.

 

Suddenly afterburner gets added and i am on teams these days all the time with fliers. The skies are lousy with them because even though it might have taken a bigger investment, you could balance your desire to fly with being atleast a respectable 3rd place in speed. So if the goal is to not leave people waiting around just for you to get to the door, and you raise flights cap but raise the caps of speed and jumping even more and make it easy for those caps to be hit, then over all its a nerf when you are comparing travel times. Sure it is a buff to flight but flight is now slower compared to jumping and speed overall. 

Fly is not horrible and the suggestion that it is is laughable hyperbole.

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

No, it depends on what you choose to look at as important.

Okay, this seems to me like an internal bias that prevents objective observation. I could just as easily choose to believe I live in the Matrix or that I am made of jelly beans. The point of this beta feedback thread is to provide the HC team with analysis based on actual testing. **Focused feedback**

 

Here is the link to General Feedback for the proposed changes from Issue 27, Page 2:

 

[QuiJon]

6 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Looking at travel power speed caps, let me lay out the numbers:

 

On Live (MPH):

Running: 92.50

Leaping: 92.50

Flying: 87.95

Teleport: ???

 

On Beta (MPH):

Running: 120.24

Leaping: 101.80 (110.39 using Take-off in conjunction with Mighty Leap)

Flying: 102.27 (using Afterburner)

Teleport: ???

 

As you can see, each travel power increased its speed cap with these proposed changes. If anyone has distance over time numbers for teleport, I would appreciate them.

Your fox newsing the numbers. Look at the beta, the speed caps for both leaping and jumping are full time caps that can be reached with as little investment as the caps for flight. The flight cap is only achievable if using afterburner, which is not ALWAYS going to be available. The real flight cap is 87.5 mph. SO if AB only last 30 seconds that means you can travel .9 miles before it turns off for 1 minute. .9 miles is less then halt the distance to cross IP or Talos island. So while your AB turns off, speedsters and leapers get to keep their cap bonuses.

 

On current live 87.5 requires alot of investment but leaves you 5-6mph behind the speedsters and leapers, still 3rd but not by alot. Now if you wanted to say that AB was still a toggle, still self effecting only, and capped you at 102 and maybe give leaping another 5 percent speed cap, that would be much closer to a equal boost to all travel powers that kept them in closer relation to how they now work but increased travel speed over all for everyone. 

 

But it isnt a fair comparison to say that the investment and net results are fair when one power will lose roughly 15mph for one third of the time you are in the air. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

No, it depends on what you choose to look at as important. I want to be able to create a character and a theme and not have to design that character around avoiding a terrible choice of travel powers. So for example, to me, it would make most sense to make a magically endowed character use fly as a travel power vs speed or jumping. However if fly is horrible compared to speed or jumping and lags to far behind then i and others would most likely either have to live with being punished to get the theme or break the theme and take something more useful. And this happened ALL THE TIME back on live before afterburner was added. I could be on teams of 8 all day and be lucky if i saw one other flier because it was considered to slow.

 

Suddenly afterburner gets added and i am on teams these days all the time with fliers. The skies are lousy with them because even though it might have taken a bigger investment, you could balance your desire to fly with being atleast a respectable 3rd place in speed. So if the goal is to not leave people waiting around just for you to get to the door, and you raise flights cap but raise the caps of speed and jumping even more and make it easy for those caps to be hit, then over all its a nerf when you are comparing travel times. Sure it is a buff to flight but flight is now slower compared to jumping and speed overall. 

First: Fly should be slower than SS and SJ; it has a pretty big advantage over those two. 

 

Second: I still don't understand these arguments. The same amount of powerpicks in fly as you made before allows you to fly even faster than on live currently (meaning you'll still be just a few seconds behind someone using SS or SJ, even with their beta changes), and as an added bonus, you get Afterburner as a free power that will help boost your cap speed even further for 30 seconds!

 

As @Wavicle said, you lot arguing against these changes are doing so over a matter of a few seconds. A few seconds should not be that big of a deal. And it's frustrating seeing SJ's new double jump feature being brought up as if it doesn't have limitations similar to the new afterburner.

[Captain Citadel]

1 minute ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

You chose that one line and pulled it out of context of my entire post. @Glacier Peak even posted a comparison just above that shows the further details. Furthermore, the main point of my post that you chose to skip over is that flying is by far the easiest and safest travel power to use, even with the changes to the other travel powers being made in beta. Fly should be slower than the other powers for those reasons, short of being able to use AB to give it short bursts that boost it.

Even while AB is in effect, Flight will be even slower than Speed and Jumping than it already is right now on Live. Stop talking down to me like I'm some kind of slow-witted child just because I'm not jumping for joy over the flight speed cap being flatly higher on Beta than it is now. Everyone's travel speed caps are going up. Relative to the other buffed travel pools, Flight will now lag further behind than it did before the original version of Afterburner was created. That's the part that I'm complaining about. All the travel pools are getting buffs, and the net result of those buffs is that Flight will be relatively slower than it is on Live.

That's why I suggested a compromise: Allow the Beta version of Afterburner to be toggled on indefinitely if a player has slotted Hover, Fly, and Evasive Maneuvers together. Much like how the Fighting pool gains increased effectiveness for investing more deeply into it.

Those players who have only invested in Super Speed or Super Jump without reaching further into the Speed or Leaping pools would still be faster than players who have only selected Fly. Those same players will still be faster than a flyer who has taken Hover, Fly, and Evasive Maneuvers and who is theoretically flying with perma-Afterburner, because the new flight speed cap is still lower than the run speed cap by a significant margin. Speed will still be the fastest travel power, it just wouldn't be as much faster than Flight than it is now.