Mastermind changes in beta

[tidge]

heh. I thought I was being diplomatic by offering to do away with the Level 6 Upgrade (because, well... it make some sense for the T1 hench, but less so T2 and T3) and add some sort of recharge intensive pet:

• Recharge intensive pets take the MM enhancements that otherwise go to henchmen
• The game already has recharge intensive pet powers
• The game already has animations for P2W summons (that happen to be toggles)
• A 'lil buffer pet would help when the henchmen start to suffer from level shifts.

My favorite MM is Robotics. I already skip Repair, I don't put any slots in Equip or Upgrade, my 3 henchmen have to hold onto the diverse aura enhancements, and I only take two of the three direct attacks to grab aggro, get some set bonuses and for some soft controls. It's just that I feel like aside from my own choices on the (rather poor) primary attacks... I honestly don't have much variety in my Primary powers.

 

Two extra powers would be neat. But my compromise (just replace the level 6 power) would at least free me up so that I could consider 5-slotting on of my henchmen powers with a single set.

 

It would also be neat to be able to multi-slot my Gang War as something other than a Mule power for the Aura Enhancements.

[PsychoThruster]

31 minutes ago, tidge said:

...It's just that I feel like aside from my own choices on the (rather poor) primary attacks... I honestly don't have much variety in my Primary powers...

 

That's exactly why I'd like to see equip and upgrade altered to ST powers that contain three kits for each pet. It makes an integral part of the AT(upgrading pets) a dynamic and active process for the player instead of just a "tax" as some people put it. I think that's the real issue that needs addressing. Then maybe looking over the level 18 power choices *coughserumcough*. 

 

I think an additional pet, especially one designed around softening the level disparity(something I think could probably be done away with outright) is just another passive power that offers little engagement from the perspective of the player. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maxzero]

8 hours ago, PsychoThruster said:

 

That's exactly why I'd like to see equip and upgrade altered to ST powers that contain three kits for each pet. It makes an integral part of the AT(upgrading pets) a dynamic and active process for the player instead of just a "tax" as some people put it. I think that's the real issue that needs addressing. Then maybe looking over the level 18 power choices *coughserumcough*. 

 

I think an additional pet, especially one designed around softening the level disparity(something I think could probably be done away with outright) is just another passive power that offers little engagement from the perspective of the player. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know why pets have level shifts anymore anyway.

 

Can't be for balance since in Incarnate content they are negated entirely and MMs don't become outrageous so I don't see how having level 50 t1s and t2 in and ITF or STF is somehow different.

[Jacktar]

Hi, to change the topic but stay with the OP’s thread title I would like to mention the changes to travel powers on beta that seem to have radically changed our favourite Mm power pick “Group Fly”!

I say seem, because the beta changes are all about travel speeds, but having rolled a new alt Mm and levelled up enough to get 6 pets and the requisite other fly pool powers to take GP and then played a few hours with it, GP really seems to work much different to live?

Now I can toggle on GP and travel from one corner of IP and PI to the opposite corner of zone non-stop and have all my pets travelling at my side so we all arrive at destination together!

Am seeing no (or virtually noticable) end usage whilst GPing.

My pets are not dropping out of the group or getting lost on journey.

I have all other travel powers except inherent Swift toggled off and GP three slotted with Fly IO’s.

It feels fantastic, and because this was a new alt and I had not switched off chat bubbles it frightened the bejeesus out of me when my pets talk appeared all round me in mid flight. OMG they are stalking me lol.

Yes it is slower than the other travel powers now but I prefer company on journey rather than speed when transiting solo.

Anyways, just a heads up and would be really interested if any of you guys have had the same improvements on beta?

 

[Crysis]

On 3/14/2021 at 10:15 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

 You didn't read my arguments. At all. You didn't respond to anything I actually said. 

 

I repeat. 

 

And on a personal note, you're lazy. Like seriously lazy. You don't do your homework, you make massively incorrect generalized statements, you have absolutely no vision of game balance or what makes classes fun and different, and you don't engage in detailed discussions and act like it's beneath you to read a bunch of shit designed to actually explain things to you. 

 

Please do not ever reply to me again. This is not the first time you've responded to me on these forums and you've pushed conversation to the point of pissing me off because you have no critical thinking skills and a massive dunning kruger complex. You make false statements and then ignore refutations while continuing to participate in discussion as if you have anything worthwhile to say and I am sick of talking to you. Respond to anyone else, I don't care. Please do not ever quote me, directly respond to me, or even acknowledge my existence from this point forward. 

I enjoyed reading your stuff until you resorted to personal attacks.  

[Crysis]

On 3/15/2021 at 10:34 PM, Coyote said:

 

I don't KB2KD on the first two tiers, because each has a single Knockback power with just a 30% chance and about a 12 second cycle time. That's like 1.5 mobs tossed per minute per robot, or 8 overall tosses for the entire squad. In a minute. Not worth caring about, IMO. Now, the AssBot gets the Overwhelming Force, which also adds KD to attacks that don't normally have it like Incendiary Swarm Missiles, so overall I don't feel that Robots are really hurting due to having to slot KB2KD converters.

I tend to slot likewise for same reasons but I still wish this game just had a simple “Allow Knockback?” toggle in the Tailor powers customization screen or something.  When solo, I tend to like it.  When teaming, not so much.  Would be nice to not have to slot in/unslot the KB2KD procs all the time but at least that’s a workaround.

[Coyote]

5 hours ago, Maxzero said:

I don't know why pets have level shifts anymore anyway.

 

Can't be for balance since in Incarnate content they are negated entirely and MMs don't become outrageous so I don't see how having level 50 t1s and t2 in and ITF or STF is somehow different.

 

Well, it was because going from one pet to two would double their damage, and it wasn't reasonable to double your damage just like that. So dropping the pets a level made them about 90% as accurate and 90% of the damage, so each pet was about 80% ofs the DPS, and now two pets were 1.6x the DPS of the first one. It seemed reasonable at that point, but that was when fighting at +2 was the top difficulty level soloing, and fighting +4s on teams was still pretty rare.

 

Nowadays, MMs need reconsideration on how their pets can be useful when they're 5-6 levels below the mobs, but without jumping their damage so much as they would if pets didn't have a level shift. I really don't have a good and workable suggestion, since I want to avoid suggesting solutions for 50+ that won't help MMs in a 40+ newspaper team that's at high difficulty.

 

So: how to keep the pet damage from ramping up much too quickly, while removing the level shift? Maybe lower the damage of the first two tiers and raise the damage of the MM personal attacks? Since now the MM's share of the damage is higher at lower levels, going from 1 Tier 1 to 2 Tier 1s at the same level wouldn't be as big of a jump... then the Tier 1s remain more useful at the high end, but MMs don't become OP in the mid-levels where they get multiple pets before the difficulty sliders really get pushed up.

[Arbegla]

Well, the biggest issue with the pets is the purple patch right? So remove the level shifts, but reduce the internal pet modifiers to compensate. Instead of 1.0 scale melee damage, and .8 ranged, gives different scales based on rank (so the T1s get .8 scale melee, .6 range, the T2s get .9 scale melee, .7 scale ranged, and the T3 gets the full 1.0 scale melee, and .8 range)

 

That way you're compensating for having more of the pets, without getting hit with the purple patch as hard.

 

Granted, that means creating a new scale modifier just for the MM pets, but it might not be too difficult to do.

[Coyote]

Hm. There are two discussions here:

1) MM changes on Beta, and what we think about them

2) Solutions to the REAL MM problems of -2 pets against +3 mobs, and a constant DoT-style damage output in a high-level game of burst AoE DPS.

 

I wager that #1 is almost an irrelevant discussion as those changes are too straightforward, simple, and beneficial, to not end up going in about like they are on Beta.

And that #2 is a discussion that is forthcoming. Clearly the MM changes are kind of "low-hanging fruit" to make some quick duct tape fixes, but I will be shocked if there isn't some real discussion initiated by the Dev team, regarding how to solve the MM issues long-term.

[TheSpiritFox]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

Hm. There are two discussions here:

1) MM changes on Beta, and what we think about them

2) Solutions to the REAL MM problems of -2 pets against +3 mobs, and a constant DoT-style damage output in a high-level game of burst AoE DPS.

 

I wager that #1 is almost an irrelevant discussion as those changes are too straightforward, simple, and beneficial, to not end up going in about like they are on Beta.

And that #2 is a discussion that is forthcoming. Clearly the MM changes are kind of "low-hanging fruit" to make some quick duct tape fixes, but I will be shocked if there isn't some real discussion initiated by the Dev team, regarding how to solve the MM issues long-term.

Quote

• Note: This were some quick low hanging changes to help Masterminds out a bit, we are currently investigating further improvements to Masterminds for the future

 

From the patch notes, this is only a first pass. 

[PsychoThruster]

It is my hope that future improvements to the AT involve differentiating the formula a bit. Robotics for instance could be a very interesting single pet class with various offensive and defensive systems to select from that utilize a resource like "CPU" and instead of getting more pets as you level, you get chip upgrades that increase "CPU". 

 

Or mercenaries getting a 3/3/3 pet scheme where each group is an LT with leadership and two t1 henchmen. Combined perhaps with my earlier proposed equip alterations. 

 

That's just me personally though. As someone who never experienced live I don't have a lot of attachment to the existing paradigm and am probably more welcoming to experimental changes. 

[tidge]

I have no strong opinion on the Beta changes for MMs. My participation in the subsequent divergence was mostly motivated by:

• I like playing MMs (solo) as I find there are different sorts of challenges in game play.
• I dislike building MMs as I feel like they are subject to more build constraints than other ATs

I am very sympathetic to the purple patch/level shift issues... but I don't play my MMs though such content.

 

My personal interest is in content below level 50, and I think there are handful of (small, subtle) changes that could be made to make the class more fun. The Homecoming team should be congratulated on the changes they have already made on behalf of MMs.

[Maxzero]

5 hours ago, Coyote said:

Hm. There are two discussions here:

1) MM changes on Beta, and what we think about them

2) Solutions to the REAL MM problems of -2 pets against +3 mobs, and a constant DoT-style damage output in a high-level game of burst AoE DPS.

 

I wager that #1 is almost an irrelevant discussion as those changes are too straightforward, simple, and beneficial, to not end up going in about like they are on Beta.

And that #2 is a discussion that is forthcoming. Clearly the MM changes are kind of "low-hanging fruit" to make some quick duct tape fixes, but I will be shocked if there isn't some real discussion initiated by the Dev team, regarding how to solve the MM issues long-term.

 

My main issue with #2 is when the devs make blanket statements to the effect: "we won't make pet upgrade powers auto." 

 

To me pet upgrades are a key influencer in regards to many MMs issues in the current meta: The lack of mobility, pet fragility, pet setup times, pet CC prot, pet primary diversification, etc. By making them at least partially untouchable it limits options.

 

So yeah I was a little disappointed in the devs statement.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Maxzero

[Crysis]

10 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

Well, it was because going from one pet to two would double their damage, and it wasn't reasonable to double your damage just like that. So dropping the pets a level made them about 90% as accurate and 90% of the damage, so each pet was about 80% ofs the DPS, and now two pets were 1.6x the DPS of the first one. It seemed reasonable at that point, but that was when fighting at +2 was the top difficulty level soloing, and fighting +4s on teams was still pretty rare.

 

Nowadays, MMs need reconsideration on how their pets can be useful when they're 5-6 levels below the mobs, but without jumping their damage so much as they would if pets didn't have a level shift. I really don't have a good and workable suggestion, since I want to avoid suggesting solutions for 50+ that won't help MMs in a 40+ newspaper team that's at high difficulty.

 

So: how to keep the pet damage from ramping up much too quickly, while removing the level shift? Maybe lower the damage of the first two tiers and raise the damage of the MM personal attacks? Since now the MM's share of the damage is higher at lower levels, going from 1 Tier 1 to 2 Tier 1s at the same level wouldn't be as big of a jump... then the Tier 1s remain more useful at the high end, but MMs don't become OP in the mid-levels where they get multiple pets before the difficulty sliders really get pushed up.

Likely would never happen but what if applying the Upgrade gave a 1 minute temp level shift to the henchmen, sort of like the Level Shift inspirations?

[PsychoThruster]

Maybe getting rid of level shifts, and replacing supremacy with something else would be an approach worth considering. Perhaps a bar filling mechanic like fury, slower to build, but once full allows a special coordinated attack from all henchmen. Like all mercs throwing frag grenades at a target location. Or make it a better but temporary equip power. Let me give my commando a badass minigun for instance.

[DSorrow]

I think negative level shifts are the biggest handicap for MMs playing at higher difficulties. Just looking at how the purple patch affects damage output and ignoring the impact of level difference on hit chance completely:

• Going from two -1 T1s to three -2 T2s is a damage output downgrade at +3. Two pets at -1 [-4 vs enemies] deal 0.48 x base DPS each for 0.96 total while three pets at -2 [-5] deal 0.30 x base DPS each for 0.90 total. Essentially, being able to choose to only summon two of your T1 pets at -1 would yield a ~7% increase in damage output.
• Going from two -1 T1s to three -2 T2s is a significant downgrade at +4. Two pets at -1 [-5] deal 0.30 x base DPS each for 0.60 total while three pets at -2 [-6] deal 0.15 x base DPS each for 0.45 total. Being able to choose to only summon two of these at -1 would give them ~33% increased damage output.

Obviously this simplifies things a bit because not all T1s summons contain three copies of the same henchman and it is ignoring the effects of having fewer henchies on bodyguard. Then again, at -6 your pets have a ridiculously low base hit chance of 0.2 which just compounds the issue of significantly reduced base damage, especially when your pets don't benefit from things such as Kismet +Acc or +Acc set bonuses.

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

I think negative level shifts are the biggest handicap for MMs playing at higher difficulties. Just looking at how the purple patch affects damage output and ignoring the impact of level difference on hit chance completely:

• Going from two -1 T1s to three -2 T2s is a damage output downgrade at +3. Two pets at -1 [-4 vs enemies] deal 0.48 x base DPS each for 0.96 total while three pets at -2 [-5] deal 0.30 x base DPS each for 0.90 total. Essentially, being able to choose to only summon two of your T1 pets at -1 would yield a ~7% increase in damage output.
• Going from two -1 T1s to three -2 T2s is a significant downgrade at +4. Two pets at -1 [-5] deal 0.30 x base DPS each for 0.60 total while three pets at -2 [-6] deal 0.15 x base DPS each for 0.45 total. Being able to choose to only summon two of these at -1 would give them ~33% increased damage output.

Obviously this simplifies things a bit because not all T1s summons contain three copies of the same henchman and it is ignoring the effects of having fewer henchies on bodyguard. Then again, at -6 your pets have a ridiculously low base hit chance of 0.2 which just compounds the issue of significantly reduced base damage, especially when your pets don't benefit from things such as Kismet +Acc or +Acc set bonuses.

 

This is exactly my feeling about the major MM problem at high level.

And then I add in that MM damage is highly oriented towards DoT-like effect... even single attacks from henchmen come fast enough and do low enough damage that they're more like chunky DoTs than like single-target attacks. So... DoT damage at high level in a teaming environment that's overloaded with Judgments and nukes means that their contribution to team damage is rather limited. This is a harder issue to solve, though... I think there may be more straightforward solutions to the level shift problem.

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I think negative level shifts are the biggest handicap for MMs playing at higher difficulties. Just looking at how the purple patch affects damage output and ignoring the impact of level difference on hit chance completely:

• Going from two -1 T1s to three -2 T2s is a damage output downgrade at +3. Two pets at -1 [-4 vs enemies] deal 0.48 x base DPS each for 0.96 total while three pets at -2 [-5] deal 0.30 x base DPS each for 0.90 total. Essentially, being able to choose to only summon two of your T1 pets at -1 would yield a ~7% increase in damage output.
• Going from two -1 T1s to three -2 T2s is a significant downgrade at +4. Two pets at -1 [-5] deal 0.30 x base DPS each for 0.60 total while three pets at -2 [-6] deal 0.15 x base DPS each for 0.45 total. Being able to choose to only summon two of these at -1 would give them ~33% increased damage output.

Obviously this simplifies things a bit because not all T1s summons contain three copies of the same henchman and it is ignoring the effects of having fewer henchies on bodyguard. Then again, at -6 your pets have a ridiculously low base hit chance of 0.2 which just compounds the issue of significantly reduced base damage, especially when your pets don't benefit from things such as Kismet +Acc or +Acc set bonuses.

 

29 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

This is exactly my feeling about the major MM problem at high level.

And then I add in that MM damage is highly oriented towards DoT-like effect... even single attacks from henchmen come fast enough and do low enough damage that they're more like chunky DoTs than like single-target attacks. So... DoT damage at high level in a teaming environment that's overloaded with Judgments and nukes means that their contribution to team damage is rather limited. This is a harder issue to solve, though... I think there may be more straightforward solutions to the level shift problem.

 

I haven't played MM's much at high/max level content (think I only have 1 at level 50 and haven't done much with her), but I think this is one of the biggest issues I would like to see addressed with MM's.

 

The beta changes are a nice way to handle resummoning pets, so I appreciate what the devs did in that regard.

 

But this is one of the more pressing issues with the AT I've been referring to. Our pets are our damage, but it feels like we face a pretty harsh penalty to try and play at the upper levels of content, especially once level shifts occur. I don't understand the mechanics and such the way some of you do to make proper suggestions, so I have no real idea on how to fix the issue. I just hope that something can be done and hopefully will be looked at in the future, that will also keep the AT balanced for lower level content.

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:31 AM, Coyote said:

Nowadays, MMs need reconsideration on how their pets can be useful when they're 5-6 levels below the mobs...

Do they really though?

 

Look, some AT's are great at soloing and others not so much. So is there anything wrong with the idea that not all AT's are suitable for +4/x8 content?

 

Ok, so MM's can't put out great damage during an Incarnate Trial. Doesn't their secondary powerset still function? Can't they buff/debuff/heal/whatever their league members?

 

Is there really anything wrong with AT's being different and some AT's being better or worse at some content than other ATs?

[WindDemon21]

9 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, so MM's can't put out great damage during an Incarnate Trial. Doesn't their secondary powerset still function? Can't they buff/debuff/heal/whatever their league members?

Buff sure, debuff, they're hit twice for some really dumb reason by being at an even lower value than that of troller/corruptors. So now your pets are next to useless, and your debuffs aren't even noticed.

[WindDemon21]

On 3/18/2021 at 8:31 AM, Coyote said:

Nowadays, MMs need reconsideration on how their pets can be useful when they're 5-6 levels below the mobs, but without jumping their damage so much as they would if pets didn't have a level shift. I really don't have a good and workable suggestion, since I want to avoid suggesting solutions for 50+ that won't help MMs in a 40+ newspaper team that's at high difficulty.

So something like the unchangeable fact that you can't reduce the recharge on your pets attacks and that you can't control when they actually use them such as aoes and controls? IE, the problem that is literally not possibly to address with coh's ai coding, and is really one of the main issues with masterminds that automatically makes them have issues that other ATs simply don't have to deal with?

[PsychoThruster]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

So something like the unchangeable fact that you can't reduce the recharge on your pets attacks and that you can't control when they actually use them such as aoes and controls? IE, the problem that is literally not possibly to address with coh's ai coding, and is really one of the main issues with masterminds that automatically makes them have issues that other ATs simply don't have to deal with?

 

Actually you could work around all of this by redesigning the AT primaries significantly. You have your summon powers, and then every other power is an "order" that gives the pet a temporary power and triggers it's use. The recharge of those attacks becomes the recharge of the "order" that grants it. Each order has a distinct effect depending on the pet tier it targeted. Mechanically this already exists, it's how the ninjas lvl 18 power works. 

 

The issue is mostly I think how far the developers are willing to go and how much the community is willing to tolerate when it comes to changing the power sets. 

 

Personally I would embrace an extreme departure from the norm that completely changes how the AT functions currently.

[Arbegla]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

Buff sure, debuff, they're hit twice for some really dumb reason by being at an even lower value than that of troller/corruptors. So now your pets are next to useless, and your debuffs aren't even noticed.

 

Three times actually, as MMs secondaries cost 25% more endurance when compared to other buff/debuff sets, for less value.

 

For example:

 

Web Grenade is 9.75 endurance Base on a MM

 

but for Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors, its 7.8 Endurance Bas

 

Acid Mortar is 16.25 Endurance on a MM, 13 on other ATs for example

 

[Maxzero]

13 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Do they really though?

 

Look, some AT's are great at soloing and others not so much. So is there anything wrong with the idea that not all AT's are suitable for +4/x8 content?

 

Ok, so MM's can't put out great damage during an Incarnate Trial. Doesn't their secondary powerset still function? Can't they buff/debuff/heal/whatever their league members?

 

Is there really anything wrong with AT's being different and some AT's being better or worse at some content than other ATs?

 

Actually pets are much better in Incarnate content. They are get level shifts to counter the level drops so all your pets are equal to your level.

 

Which as I said earlier makes you wonder for the need for negative shifts for pets at all. If they are not needed in Incarnate content why are they needed in other high level content?

Edited March 20, 2021 by Maxzero

[Maxzero]

2 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

Three times actually, as MMs secondaries cost 25% more endurance when compared to other buff/debuff sets, for less value.

 

For example:

 

Web Grenade is 9.75 endurance Base on a MM

 

but for Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors, its 7.8 Endurance Bas

 

Acid Mortar is 16.25 Endurance on a MM, 13 on other ATs for example

 

 

Its strange how later primary MM sets (Demons, Nature) had better MMs attack to encourage a more active playstyle then proceeded to punish said playstyle with higher end costs.