Impact: A Super Strength idea.

[SkyeSharpe]

So, SS has AoE Problems (tm). Foot Stomp aside, it really doesn't do much unless you're fighting a single target, or you're like me and overinvest in Hand Clap for the memes. And it's also a really old, dusty set that could use a little life injected into it in any case. Not that I'm biased - my super-strength/invuln Brute says so. I've seen a suggestion here or there about moving powers around or changing powers entirely, but I have my own idea; one which could maybe solve the problem while retaining a good feeling of "SUPER STRENGTH" with heavy hits and thunderous impacts.

 

That being: "Impact" - An effect like Rad-Melee's Contamination. I'm thinking a dead simple idea: Jab, Punch, and Haymaker have a chance to inflict a special "Impact" status on enemies they hit. If those powers hit an enemy who's already afflicted with "Impact", they have a chance to instead create an "Impact Burst", a small AoE that does a some light Smashing damage and causes knockdown. Or maybe more damage with only a chance for KD. The concept here being that Super Strong punches hit so hard that the shockwaves from each hit hurt enemies nearby. If it suits the balance-gods, you can take the secondary effects off of Jab, Punch, and Haymaker to make room for Impact.

 

That's it, that's the idea. Some tepid chance-for-AoE damage on their most boring normal attacks to give a greater feeling of big-smashy hits, and give more AoE control and damage beyond Foot Stomp.

[Braal]

I wholeheartedly support this as a lover of Super Strength.

[VinceBlood]

I'm all about it.  SS is strong, but it's fallen behind over the years.  It's also one of the most numbingly-boring sets to play, IMO.  A little extra flair to it would breathe new life, while improving its core gameplay loop.

[RunoKnows]

I think it would be great to see a change like this hit Super Strength. It feels like this classic set has seen a lot of changes over the years, but if there's one thing it kind of does well, it's smashing stuff... Except for the fact that there are like, two powers that feel like they have a truly superheroic level of *OOMPH* to them (Footstomp, Knockout Blow, and arguably Haymaker).

 

A passive ability with the chance to trigger an inherent effect like what you're describing would go a long way towards making the set feel both "modern", AND making sure it fits the aesthetic and theme that most people choose it for, without drastically altering the set's design or drifting away from what makes it iconic. Seriously, what comic book, movie, or even video game character with super strength isn't shown going absolutely ham and knocking out crowds of enemies with single swings?

 

If this is something that the dev team feels is doable, I'm all for it. On the off-chance that it is too difficult/risky or even impossible to code, maybe a sort of similar effect could be added to certain SS powers -- like adding a short line effect to Punch or making Haymaker a somewhat broad but low-reach cone. But honestly, Impact sounds like a solid idea that would make the set feel much more like it was given some love in 2021 instead of being stuck in 2004.

[Biff Pow]

The easiest way to give Super Strength more AoE is make Hurl a Ranged AoE, since it feels like that big rock should hit more than one guy anyway.

[Yoolie]

I'm all for this, it would make Super Strength feel like a modern set, they've all got some kind of gimmick. Even if it didn't do extra damage at all, but was a close AoE moderately strong Knockdown effect as shockwaves knock enemies off their feet.

 

6 minutes ago, Supertanker said:

The easiest way to give Super Strength more AoE is make Hurl a Ranged AoE, since it feels like that big rock should hit more than one guy anyway.

 

Could see that in addition. Make it a line AoE.

[VinceBlood]

17 minutes ago, Supertanker said:

The easiest way to give Super Strength more AoE is make Hurl a Ranged AoE, since it feels like that big rock should hit more than one guy anyway.

 

Hurl would need to be a stronger power overall for that to make it more useful.  It looks fun, but Hurl is mediocre at best and more of a "pick off the runner" or "knock down the flyer" power.  That also doesn't solve the issue of SS needing more oomph at lower levels, especially in comparison to other melee sets.

[arcane]

I don’t understand how SS has an AoE problem at all. Raged Foot Stomp puts its AoE power firmly ahead of many other sets.

 

That said I’m not opposed to an incremental buff of this type because you are really going to have to sweeten the deal to get me to play with the Rage crash.

Edited March 23, 2021 by arcane

[Parabola]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t understand how SS has an AoE problem at all. Raged Foot Stomp puts its AoE power firmly ahead of many other sets.

32 or 38 levels is a long time to wait. And one aoe (no matter how good) is still one aoe, it can't chain with itself. In a world where dark melee has had shadow maul buffed and another aoe added I think we can hope for extra aoe of some sort in SS. Stone melee needs it more though it has to be said.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, parabola said:

32 or 38 levels is a long time to wait. And one aoe (no matter how good) is still one aoe, it can't chain with itself. In a world where dark melee has had shadow maul buffed and another aoe added I think we can hope for extra aoe of some sort in SS. Stone melee needs it more though it has to be said.

Post edited. Not expressing opposition, just questioning the premise expressed in the first sentence.

[Andreah]

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

I don’t understand how SS has an AoE problem at all. Raged Foot Stomp puts its AoE power firmly ahead of many other sets.

 

That said I’m not opposed to an incremental buff of this type because you are really going to have to sweeten the deal to get me to play with the Rage crash.

The problem is that SS ends up being all about how fast you can recycle footstomp.

 

I would not mind footstomp being nerfed a bit, if that was the price for making the other powers worth using.

 

I'd also like to see Rage no longer stack on itself, and also not have a crash if refreshed before it expires. This alone would give some room to buff the other powers.

 

I would also like to see the other powers changed in a way that makes it more tactical on a team. Create conditions that help teammates in some way. Handclap could do something more useful than disorient, for instance. Or let the single target attacks put a stacking vulnerability of some sort on the foes. Like very small aoe or cone knockdowns. Damage the one target hit, knock that one target down, and then also possibly any standing next to it. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Super Strength already has the whole Rage up/down mini-game, let's not add another combo system to another powerset that doesn't need it.

 

Add a KB to KD IO and some damage procs to Handclap and now you've got two AoEs. Problem solved.

[VinceBlood]

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Super Strength already has the whole Rage up/down mini-game, let's not add another combo system to another powerset that doesn't need it.

 

Add a KB to KD IO and some damage procs to Handclap and now you've got two AoEs. Problem solved.

 

Three things, here.

1.  We shouldn't rely on the invention system to be a way to shoot down ideas in the suggestion forum.  Yes, what you said is an option, but devoting an entire power pick and 2-5 slots to making an arguably low-use power into something moderately useful is neither a viable idea, or what's being suggested here.  It doesn't solve the problem or contribute to the original idea.

2.  This isn't a combo system.  As far as I can tell, this like Radiation Melee (as outlined in the original post) where this effect will trigger on its own without any extra input from the player.  The playstyle wouldn't change.  The core gameplay loop wouldn't change, you'd still be doing the same basic rotations, but now with some added AoE to bring SS in line with things like Dark or Rad.

3. Rage's "mini-game" comes with an unavoidable downside and a gameplay loop hit.

[MTeague]

I acknowledge there's a difference between "what feels thematic" and "what would bring a performance boost to the set".

But rather than adding AoE splash damage, I'd rather see Impact provide something like the extra damage gravity controllers get with grav distortion / propel.  

That is, additional single-target damage to the affected mob.

 

If I punch enemy number 1, I just .... have trouble taking seriously the idea that that punch affected someone 3 feet away from him. 

I mean, I get it, comic books, we don't need no stinkin' reality, etc. 

 

But I also don't consider it such a bad thing to have some melee sets that are more Single Target focused vs AE focused.

Even if that goes against the "what is most efficient" meta.

[BLVD]

As a lover of Stone Melee, I would love to see a similar mechanic added to Fault (unless Tremor gets a faster animation time). The knockdown and stun is nice, but the lack of ANY damage makes it feel way behind other sets it should be competing with (EM, most notably). I think the same idea can apply to Hand Clap and Ice Patch as well. There was a day this kind of mitigation for tankers was really important, but with the current state of the game it just feels like a lack of damage that you'd find in other sets. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by tan702

[RunoKnows]

7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Super Strength already has the whole Rage up/down mini-game, let's not add another combo system to another powerset that doesn't need it.

 

Add a KB to KD IO and some damage procs to Handclap and now you've got two AoEs. Problem solved.

That's sort of like saying, "Knockout Blow on its own isn't enough to put a decent Hold on bosses and EBs, so just put a Lockdown proc in there." And keep in mind Super Strength having a lack of high-magnitude holds isn't a problem, but a lack of decent AoE (especially when leveling) can be, IMO. Ultimately, this doesn't solve the problem; actually, it isn't even a workaround, as it completely ignores the problem at hand.

Hand Clap is available at level 6, deals no damage to begin with, would require a truckload of IOs to make the damage anywhere even close to noticeable (assuming both damage effects proc at once), of which you can only slot two at most by way of the Explosive Strike KD set and the Perfect Zinger taunt set. On the flip side, at least that leaves a third slot open for the Sudden Acceleration unique, which is mandatory as the power would be absolutely awful as an AoE assuming you don't want to toss away an entire crowd of bad guys so you don't make things needlessly annoying for 7 other people... or more if it's a league...

 

 

You're also the only person to mention a combo system at all; as it was described, the suggestion at hand has nothing to do with combos and is (IMO) a much simpler and more elegant solution. Presumably it wouldn't even have to be implemented in the form of a combo system anyway, given that the game already has precedence for new and/or updated powers with similar mechanics -- like Radiation Melee, as Vince noted above. The actual mechanic as outlined might be more appealing if you take a moment to really read the original post.

[KnightWilliams]

Am I enjoying Super Strength? Yes. 

Would I enjoy Super Strength more if it had a little more going for it? Absolutely. I get that "punch one guy real hard" is like a hallmark of super-strong characters, but there's gotta be ways to put some brand of mechanical variety into it, and I think the AoE bit you mention here totally works. 

Single-target until level 32 is okay for solo leveling, but I don't want to *have* to rely on Pool Powers or spamming Taunt/hoping my Aura keeps bad guys from hitting my friends. Any AoE at all would be lovely, especially since some sets thrive on that stuff at lower levels anyhow.

[SkyeSharpe]

7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Super Strength already has the whole Rage up/down mini-game, let's not add another combo system to another powerset that doesn't need it.

 

Add a KB to KD IO and some damage procs to Handclap and now you've got two AoEs. Problem solved.

 

Like I said, overinvesting in Hand Clap for the memes is something I do. It just doesn't solve the major problem. I love my Hand Clap for the soft control and space-filler attack it provides, but it doesn't help with AoE damage in any significant capacity. Also I'm not asking for a combo system, I'm basically asking for SS's lamest moves to have "chance for AoE damage", in addition to/instead of what they have now (whatever works better for overall balance.)

 

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

I acknowledge there's a difference between "what feels thematic" and "what would bring a performance boost to the set".

But rather than adding AoE splash damage, I'd rather see Impact provide something like the extra damage gravity controllers get with grav distortion / propel.  

That is, additional single-target damage to the affected mob.

 

If I punch enemy number 1, I just .... have trouble taking seriously the idea that that punch affected someone 3 feet away from him. 

I mean, I get it, comic books, we don't need no stinkin' reality, etc. 

 

But I also don't consider it such a bad thing to have some melee sets that are more Single Target focused vs AE focused.

Even if that goes against the "what is most efficient" meta.

 

I have no problem at all with there being ST and AoE focused sets - in fact I really like the balance and gameplay aspect of them existing. I just don't agree that being so strong you can crack pavement, clap your hands hard enough to knock people off their feet, and throw boulders the side of your entire body *doesn't* translate into being an AoE-friendly set with explosive hits of force. The animations show these bursts of impact, and it makes less sense to me that those explosions aren't translating to anything but damage to the guy I'm hitting. Shockwaves are a thing for any sufficiently strong hit, and hitting something hard enough would create one around the point of impact - hence my idea.

[KnightWilliams]

17 hours ago, Yoolie said:

Could see that in addition. Make [Hurl] a line AoE.

I actually love this idea. Just sweeping people off their feet with a giant dang boulder.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, RunoKnows said:

That's sort of like saying, "Knockout Blow on its own isn't enough to put a decent Hold on bosses and EBs, so just put a Lockdown proc in there." And keep in mind Super Strength having a lack of high-magnitude holds isn't a problem, but a lack of decent AoE (especially when leveling) can be, IMO. Ultimately, this doesn't solve the problem; actually, it isn't even a workaround, as it completely ignores the problem at hand.

True.

 

That's kind of a problem with a lot of attacks that have holds and stuns. They don't affect bosses. I understand that MMO devs don't want people just holding all of the bosses, but in most cases players don't want to hold minions because they can just kill them, so it's difficult to find a solution to this problem. However, from a player perspective, adding a Lockdown proc is really all you can do to address this problem unless the devs address it.

 

1 hour ago, RunoKnows said:

Hand Clap is available at level 6, deals no damage to begin with, would require a truckload of IOs to make the damage anywhere even close to noticeable (assuming both damage effects proc at once), of which you can only slot two at most by way of the Explosive Strike KD set and the Perfect Zinger taunt set. On the flip side, at least that leaves a third slot open for the Sudden Acceleration unique, which is mandatory as the power would be absolutely awful as an AoE assuming you don't want to toss away an entire crowd of bad guys so you don't make things needlessly annoying for 7 other people... or more if it's a league...

Also true. I definitely think that the devs should change Hand Clap to KD instead of KB and add a bunch of damage to it.

 

1 hour ago, RunoKnows said:

You're also the only person to mention a combo system at all; as it was described, the suggestion at hand has nothing to do with combos and is (IMO) a much simpler and more elegant solution.

By combo system I was referring to Impact. I get that it's not really a combo system. This was just vague and inaccurate wording on my part. My fault.

 

[Captain Citadel]

7 hours ago, MTeague said:

I acknowledge there's a difference between "what feels thematic" and "what would bring a performance boost to the set".

But rather than adding AoE splash damage, I'd rather see Impact provide something like the extra damage gravity controllers get with grav distortion / propel.  

That is, additional single-target damage to the affected mob.

 

If I punch enemy number 1, I just .... have trouble taking seriously the idea that that punch affected someone 3 feet away from him. 

I mean, I get it, comic books, we don't need no stinkin' reality, etc. 

 

But I also don't consider it such a bad thing to have some melee sets that are more Single Target focused vs AE focused.

Even if that goes against the "what is most efficient" meta.

A while back I proposed an alternative version of Super Strength that had -Res effects as its special gimmick, without Rage. It was mostly in response to not liking the removal of Bruising, at least in a thematic "team support" sense, and also hating how SS is built around perma-Rage, with terrible damage output if you choose not to take it. Not taking Build Up in other melee sets is nowhere near as big of a detriment because there's not a ton of uptime.

Maybe this proposal could be revisited as a special gimmick for the existing Super Strength set? I don't know what the exact debuff numbers would look like, but more or less this would tweak Super Strength to resemble something like a theoretical "Sonic Melee" set but without a Sonic-oriented theme. This would represent the overwhelming power of a character with Super Strength.

Street Justice and Martial Arts deal the same flavor of Smashing damage, but they represent "normal" melee attacks. Super Strength should be, well...super, right? So applying a minor -Res debuff for flavor would make it feel more powerful. Thematically, the justification for the -Res effect would be that the character with Super Strength is delivering such punishing blows that the target's armor is buckling under the strain. Impact could represent landing an attack to a vital area, with additional strikes to Impacted targets building a -Res debuff as that vital area is subjected to further earth-shattering strikes.

I think one of the other CoH servers has an AoE effect applied to SS, similar in function to the concept @SkyeSharpe is proposing. I haven't tested it for myself, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. Super Strength does need something. The only question is what.

[Biff Pow]

Honestly, I think a better idea is to just create a new "Smash Melee" powerset to avoid upsetting people with a Super Strength rework. Like how Willpower was basically just Regen 2.0.

[Captain Citadel]

2 minutes ago, Supertanker said:

Honestly, I think a better idea is to just create a new "Smash Melee" powerset to avoid upsetting people with a Super Strength rework. Like how Willpower was basically just Regen 2.0.

I don't know if I'd call Willpower an elegant solution to Regen's problems, though. Existing Regen characters basically had to reroll in order to take advantage of a set that wasn't hampered by fossilized design mistakes. I mean, Willpower's here now. No sense in getting rid of it and trying to graft its advantages into Regen, obviously. But I would say we should maybe avoid repeating that chain of events and figure out a way to fix Super Strength instead of effectively discarding it in favor of a newer and better version of a very similar concept.

Frankly I'd say Street Justice is arguably an example of this exact kind of "fix" but one that may have missed the mark because it's built around a combo-based system, whereas Super Strength is much simpler to use because you can just fall into a rhythm of hitting whichever button in the attack chain has come off cooldown.

[MTeague]

27 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I don't know if I'd call Willpower an elegant solution to Regen's problems, though. Existing Regen characters basically had to reroll in order to take advantage of a set that wasn't hampered by fossilized design mistakes.

 

And then there are those of us, who you'd probably say have some Stockholm Syndrome going on, who genuinely prefer Regeneration to Willpower.

[Captain Citadel]

3 minutes ago, MTeague said:

And then there are those of us, who you'd probably say have some Stockholm Syndrome going on, who genuinely prefer Regeneration to Willpower.

I mean...if you do then so do I, lol. I'm in no position to judge. I should be using Street Justice but I just prefer Super Strength, even in spite of the gripes I have with the set.