A note on Rune of Protection changes

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Um capped defenses means just about all mez attacks do not get through.  So your capped defenses are in essence acting as a quasi mez shield.  Just like regular attacks sometimes something gets through 5-10% of the time that mezzes you but that's a rare occasion you can mitigate.  

 

Softcapped defense means you have a 5% chance to get hit against an even level mob, and when you do get hit, ALL effects lands, mez included.

 

Mez Protection means that if you do get hit, you are immune to the mez status effect. 100% immunity until it surpasses your Magnitude of protection.

 

Completely different animals.

[ForeverLaxx]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

This is kinda a strawman argument

No, it isn't. I'm not going to get in a debate here, but suffice it to say, being at the Defense Cap means you get hit by far fewer attacks, completely bypassing any mez that may have been attached to those attacks. Carry a couple breakfrees for those times where you get unlucky and it's like you have permanent mez protection at all times.

 

For some reason, the Devs have decided that Defense Cap + 200% recharge builds is acceptable (or at least, too ingrained to modify), but a non-perma power without tons of outside help or a butchered build is "too good".

 

I don't buy it.

[Arbegla]

8 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Unless you are like me and hate the respec process. I have used an absolute fortunes worth of unslotters to avoid respecs wherever possible. How I wish there were a way to respec a single power, or even pool, rather than the entire respec you have to go through now. Unslotters for powers is what we need!

 

While I do understand that the respec process is annoying, you do know that when City of Heroes was first released, Re-specification wasn't even included right? You picked what you picked, and if you didn't like it, you rerolled the entire character. Respecs weren't possible until Issue 2.

[scottocamp]

15 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

While I can't talk about the workflow of programming for the Dev's here, I can talk about commercial grade programming workflow, and even with the best code base in the world, you don't want to change too many things at all. Incremental changes are always best, as you can break something in new and creative ways. They were already touching the travel powers (which covers Mystic Flight) and the change to RoP is simply reducing a duration value. If there is proper coding standards, that is a pretty simple change.

 

Now, rebalancing the other powers, (keep in mind, two of the powers within the Sorcery Pool affect Enemies and Allys, but in different ways) is a lot more work, and was definitely not planned as part of this change. We're going to get a free-spec when this hits live, and we'll get another one when/if the Sorcery Pool gets looked at again. Temporarily making a Origin Pool (that on average only 5% of players take) less popular isn't a big deal.

 I hear what you are saying - but it sounds like the RoP change is pretty simple.  Why not just postpone that simple change until the other Sorcery powers can be improved?  The developers revamped the entire Teleportation Pool at one time - which in my opinion was a great success.  Why not take the same approach with the Sorcery Pool?

[CaptainLupis]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

While I do understand that the respec process is annoying, you do know that when City of Heroes was first released, Re-specification wasn't even included right? You picked what you picked, and if you didn't like it, you rerolled the entire character. Respecs weren't possible until Issue 2.

Nope, because CoH didn't come to the EU until issue 3.

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Softcapped defense means you have a 5% chance to get hit against an even level mob, and when you do get hit, ALL effects lands, mez included.

 

Mez Protection means that if you do get hit, you are immune to the mez status effect. 100% immunity until it surpasses your Magnitude of protection.

 

Completely different animals.

 

I did say quasi but that's why you see so many people build up defense first.  If 5 attacks do get through which most of it's random rolls so say regular attacks got through that means 95 attacks didn't which assuredly a bunch of that was mez attacks you avoided.  Yes on higher difficulties and fighting things like GMs and AVs defense is more towards the 10% of the time, it's still significant.  

[Arbegla]

10 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

I did say quasi but that's why you see so many people build up defense first.  If 5 attacks do get through which most of it's random rolls so say regular attacks got through that means 95 attacks didn't which assuredly a bunch of that was mez attacks you avoided.  Yes on higher difficulties and fighting things like GMs and AVs defense is more towards the 10% of the time, it's still significant.  

 

Oh I agree, but its still different animals. And pretending they are the same, it isn't fair to RoP. Because RoP is 1 power that provides immunity to an entire section of the game (in addition to granting significant damage resistance to ALL damage types) for its entire duration.

 

Softcapping your defense isn't possible via 1 power. It requires a specific set of powers and IO set combinations to achieve. Its MUCH more then just 1 power.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Arbegla

[Bionic_Flea]

18 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

For some reason, the Devs have decided that Defense Cap + 200% recharge builds is acceptable (or at least, too ingrained to modify), but a non-perma power without tons of outside help or a butchered build is "too good".

You assume facts not in evidence.

 

The devs have not stated those are OK.  They just haven't nerfed them . . . YET!  Which is why I want to know what they consider overpowered and am kinda worried that the only response was Jimmy stating avoiding an entire part of the game, or words to that affect.  But as others have pointed out all armor sets negate mez, force field and sonic negate mez, Perma-Domination negates mez, etc.  And that's not to mention all the other parts of the game that are negated by one thing or another (-kb IOs, softcap defense, and so forth).

 

And that is my problem.  It's not that they are changing Rune of Protection.  I only have it on a few characters and I don't think the proposed change will affect them much.  But I do have a problem with them changing a power because it's "overpowered" . . . because if ROP is overpowered . . . let the nerf wars begin!

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Bionic_Flea

[Arbegla]

16 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Nope, because CoH didn't come to the EU until issue 3.

 

Ok, that's fair and understable to a point, though RoP still wasn't available on the live servers before the shutdown, so its still a new enough thing to need to be worked out.

[Mezmera]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Oh I agree, but its still different animals. And pretending they are the same, it isn't fair to RoP. Because RoP is 1 power that provides immunity to an entire section of the game (in addition to granting significant damage resistance to ALL damage types) for its entire duration.

 

Softcapping your defense isn't possible via 1 power. It requires a specific set of powers and IO set combinations to achieve. Its MUCH more then just 1 power.

 

So does Melee Hybrid, Clarion, Barrier in a way, temp powers, Break frees and still RoP.  There's lots of things to mitigate your time mezzed.  Mez being what it is isn't really insurmountable in the game.  

 

Building for defense is smart to do also since it lets you avoid all damage instead of just resisting some of it but likely getting hit by all of it if you go the RoP route.  RoP is just an alternative to the normal already overpowered builds which @Bionic_Flea is alluding to.  

Edited March 31, 2021 by Mezmera

[Tad Cooper]

19 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

While I do understand that the respec process is annoying, you do know that when City of Heroes was first released, Re-specification wasn't even included right? You picked what you picked, and if you didn't like it, you rerolled the entire character. Respecs weren't possible until Issue 2.

 

If we're going to play the "available at launch" game, you realize that you couldn't keep mez protection going at the same time as other powers at launch, right? Armor toggles were exclusive to each other, and mez protection rooted you on at least earth and invuln. Probably the others too, I can't remember. It's only been 17 years... Anyway, Tankers spent a lot of time complaining that they couldn't do their job because of mez and/or not being able to move so that got changed real quick. Not sure why your so rootin' tootin' opposed to people in the present having the same complaint.

 

There's a have/have-not dichotomy between armor and non-armor sets, and removing one of the few options that let's people mitigate that somewhat (given that the power in question is basically the equivalent of a free break free and resistance inspiration every 10 minutes, 3 if you've got an ungodly amount of recharge. Unimpressive, to my eyes) reinforces the idea that only melee classes should matter. Hell, the Arcana people were still explaining how seriously fucked blasters were until the game died. So it took years and years and years for one set "squishies" to get their shit looked at. Frankly, I think the negative response to this change is at least somewhat based on that sour taste.

 

5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

You assume facts not in evidence.

 

The devs have not stated those are OK.  They just haven't nerfed them . . . YET!  Which is why I want to know what they consider overpowered and am kinda worried that the only response was Jimmy stating avoiding an entire part of the game, or words to that affect.  But as others have pointed out all armor sets negate mez, force field and sonic negate mez, Perma-Domination negates mez, etc.  And that's not to mention all the other parts of the game that are negated by one thing or another (-kb IOs, and so forth).

 

And that is my problem.  It's not that they are changing Rune of Protection.  I only have it on a few characters and I don't think the proposed change will affect them much.  But I do have a problem with them changing a power because it's "overpowered" . . . because of ROP is overpowered . . . let the nerf wars begin!

 

 

And then we have the more reasonable response that yes, this implies things are gonna get tighter all around for no reason. Let's do it! Let the nerfing begin! Let all the cosmic cat girls look at three minions and despair!

Edited March 31, 2021 by Tad Cooper

[CaptainLupis]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Ok, that's fair and understable to a point, though RoP still wasn't available on the live servers before the shutdown, so its still a new enough thing to need to be worked out.

You've lost me I'm afraid. What has RoP not making it to live got to do with there being no respecs before issue 2?

Edited March 31, 2021 by CaptainLupis

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

So does Melee Hybrid, Clarion, Barrier in a way, temp powers, Break frees and still RoP.  There's lots of things to mitigate your time mezzed.  Mez being what it is isn't really insurmountable in the game.  

 

Building for defense is smart to do also since it lets you avoid all damage instead of just resisting some of it but likely getting hit by all of it if you go the RoP route.  RoP is just an alternative to the normal already overpowered builds.  

 

Melee Hybrid, Clarion, and Barrier are all Incarnate powers thus, they aren't usable below level 45. Temp Powers are by definition Temporary. Break Frees also also temporary, and limited in use, you can only carry so many of them.

 

RoP on the other hand, is available as early as level 20, and does a lot to increase both your survival, and grants immunity to Mez. Its pretty clear it was a very powerful power, that needed to be adjusted.

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

And that is my problem.  It's not that they are changing Rune of Protection.  I only have it on a few characters and I don't think the proposed change will affect them much.  But I do have a problem with them changing a power because it's "overpowered" . . . because if ROP is overpowered . . . let the nerf wars begin!

I think this is the major concern at play here, but I think they're smart enough not to replicate what Jack tried to do early on and rebalance everything.

 

In many ways, I would consider trying to balance this game or alter how IO builds work outside of extreme outliers a fool's errand.

Edited March 31, 2021 by ScarySai

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

You've lost me I'm afraid. What has RoP not making it to live got to do with there being no respecs before issue 2?

 

RoP not making it to live means that if you wanted to use it, you had to respec into it on test. And/or reroll a new character and pick it up then. If RoP did make it onto live, but you wanted it on a level 50, you had to respec into it.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

I think this is the major concern at play here, but I think they're smart enough not to replicate what Jack tried to do early on and rebalance everything.

 

In many ways, I would consider trying to balance this game or alter how IO builds work outside of extreme outliers a fool's game.

 

I think the Devs already have a level of 'Balance' in mind, and I do think they need to make that public knowledge. Once you know where the line is, we'll be able to adjust accordingly.

 

Softcapped defense and 200% recharge is nice, but its not making you immune to an entire section of the game.

[CaptainLupis]

2 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

RoP not making it to live means that if you wanted to use it, you had to respec into it on test. And/or reroll a new character and pick it up then. If RoP did make it onto live, but you wanted it on a level 50, you had to respec into it.

Ok. I'm not really seeing how that relates to what's going on here, but yes that would have been the case on live.

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

Ok. I'm not really seeing how that relates to what's going on here, but yes that would have been the case on live.

 

We're getting a free-respec with this change. You don't like the power, you can respec out of it. That's how it relates to what is going on here.

[CaptainLupis]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

We're getting a free-respec with this change. You don't like the power, you can respec out of it. That's how it relates to what is going on here.

I feel like we have just gone full circle. Yes I am fully aware of that. If you are saying I would have respecced into it on live that is unlikely. I may have taken it on new characters, but I probably wouldn't have used a respec to get it on existing ones.

[Coyotedancer]

Hmm... Maybe this is too obvious and has already been mentioned somewhere (I admit I haven't paid perfect attention to every single post on the issue so far-), but if it's the combination of mez protection and broad resistance that makes RoP look so vastly over-powered, at least on paper, why not address that bit directly? 

 

Since a lot of us in that mighty 5% who take and use the power seem to do it much more for the mezzy bits than the resistance, how about just leaving the duration and recharge as-is and remove the resistance component completely? It seems like that would solve the "better than Armor T9" issues and any resistance-stacking on melee types that might be worrying the dev crew, while still leaving anyone who uses it to keep from becoming mushroom bait fine using it in that role.   

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[scottocamp]

19 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Softcapping your defense isn't possible via 1 power. It requires a specific set of powers and IO set combinations to achieve. Its MUCH more then just 1 power.

 

I only use RoP on two characters - an Illusion/Time Controller and a Time/Fire Blast Defender.  I am afforded the luxury of splurging on the 3 powers needed to get RoP on those two characters because Farsight and Power Boost provide such an enormous amount of defense to everything (nearly 27% and nearly 31% respectively).  Toss in Clarion and I get over 41% defense to everything out of just Farsight on my Defender.  So you can get pretty close to softcapping defense without a huge amount of investment.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Hmm... Maybe this is too obvious and has already been mentioned sowmehere (I admit I haven't paid perfect attention to every single post on the issue so far-), but if it's the combination of mez protection and broad resistance that makes RoP look so vastly over-powered, at least on paper, why not address that bit directly? 

 

Since a lot of us in that mighty 5% who take and use the power seem to do it much more for the mezzy bits than the resistance, how about just leaving the duration and recharge as-is and remove the resistance component completely? It seems like that would solve the "better than Armor T9" issues and any resistance-stacking on melee types that might be worrying the dev crew, while still leaving anyone who uses it to keep from becoming mushroom bait fine using it in that role.   

 

Because while the combination of Mez Protection and Resistance is very nice, the Mez Protection is the major offender, not the resistance. The fact it also gives Resistance is just icing on the cake.

 

Getting full Mez Protection, in a clickie every 3 to 10 minutes, for 90 seconds at level 20 on ANY AT is very very powerful.

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, scottocamp said:

 

I only use RoP on two characters - an Illusion/Time Controller and a Time/Fire Blast Defender.  I am afforded the luxury of splurging on the 3 powers needed to get RoP on those two characters because Farsight and Power Boost provide such an enormous amount of defense to everything (nearly 27% and nearly 31% respectively).  Toss in Clarion and I get over 41% defense to everything out of just Farsight on my Defender.  So you can get pretty close to softcapping defense without a huge amount of investment.

 

Except you're using two powers (or three, with Clarion), and you're not quite there. There is a HUGE difference between 40% defense, and 45% defense. (literally twice as many attacks land on you)

Edited March 31, 2021 by Arbegla

[Saikochoro]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Hmm... Maybe this is too obvious and has already been mentioned sowmehere (I admit I haven't paid perfect attention to every single post on the issue so far-), but if it's the combination of mez protection and broad resistance that makes RoP look so vastly over-powered, at least on paper, why not address that bit directly? 

 

Since a lot of us in that mighty 5% who take and use the power seem to do it much more for the mezzy bits than the resistance, how about just leaving the duration and recharge as-is and remove the resistance component completely? It seems like that would solve the "better than Armor T9" issues and any resistance-stacking on melee types that might be worrying the dev crew, while still leaving anyone who uses it to keep from becoming mushroom bait fine using it in that role.   

Because there are people, such as myself, that do use it for the resistance every bit as much as the mez, even on squishies.  This solution would be even worse than what they are doing in my opinion.  The fact that it has both attributes is a huge reason why I have picked RoP thus far. 

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Since a lot of us in that mighty 5% who take and use the power seem to do it much more for the mezzy bits than the resistance, how about just leaving the duration and recharge as-is and remove the resistance component completely? 

 

I have two characters with Rune, a SR stalker and a dom that benefit greatly and solely from the added resistance.  This is getting thick, all attributes in Rune are attractive each in their own right.  Resistance is a BIG draw for me to the power especially on something where I have my defenses already settled.