VEAT: Night Widow and Bane specific suggestions

[KaizenSoze]

After putting in even more time into VEATs. A few more suggestions specific to Night Widows and Banes.

 

Replace their single target placate with a better version of Concealment: Misdirection. Depending on how it's implemented, this could be the venom nade for NW and Banes. Of course, it would have to preclude Venom nade for the banes. Misdirection could be the replacement for NW's level 32 power. which honestly sucks for a t9 power.

 

Also, give them a weak taunt aura. Nothing that would interfere with tanker or brute taunting. Would make soloing a lot easier.

 

I think these two changes would make them unique compared to Fortunatas and Crabs.

 

Our previous sadonecrobeastality...

 

[Zeraphia]

I'm going to be honest with you, these are just not the changes IMO, that I'd want to see. While they're fine and I wouldn't be sad that they were implemented, the way I see it is that on the DPS numbers, both ATs and even their specialties are absolutely great. Not overpowered, but very good. The issue that doesn't show up in the number-crunching is that on many other ATs be it Blaster, true Stalkers, etc. is that they can burst for much higher damage and more consistent damage than either HEAT/VEAT can. So while a NW could actually have the DPS to keep up with many Stalker variants, what's missing from these numbers is that there's a much larger spike in damage from an AS crit, and then the re-hiding you can do with their ATOs. 

 

Honestly, a watered down version of the Stalker ATOs would be very helpful. As to what those would be, I'm not sure. But what these VEATs really need IMO isn't something that up's their DPS, rather delivers larger bursts to their longer CD powers to down enemies with less HP faster. 

 

An example would be coming across a +1 boss. Sure, the NW can down it decently, but much slower albeit and a lot less safely than a Claws Stalker can due to the virtue of AS, and a larger scaling for damage so that the boss lives only a few seconds whereas the NW will still regularly take 10+ seconds to truly down the bosses. This creates a huge gap in performance that isn't seen on a pylon test. 

 

What the VEATs need IMO is great consistency and burst damage capability. Powers that hit hard, maybe give up some on the sustain, and more on the burst. 

 

EDIT: also to add with my experience with these ATs, they are absolute endurance nightmares. They're basically team-oriented Super Reflexes Stalkers (B&NW) while having extremely fast animating attacks with considerable endurance costs and they also have a far more limited burst potential than Stalkers who may from their secondary get far more help than VEATs for endurance management. I think this should be sincerely addressed especially because VEATs are very centered around toggle usage. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Zeraphia

[KaizenSoze]

You might want to read the linked forum post.  The VEAT inherent is lacking, to say the least. Once, you have accolades and the right IOs it's not a problem, but it's painful leveling from scratch. But the inherent is not providing a unique benefit in my opinion.

 

My suggestion is new and not covered in that thread. Maybe they are not a great suggestions, but it does give them a unique flavor.  I wanted to avoid re-hashing all the old discussion points.  Hence, my beating a dead horse joke.

 

As for damage, Forts and Crabs are fine. Forts have massive burst damage potential.  Crabberminds at least are DPS monsters, just not burst monsters.

 

Night widows are superior to all mace Banes. Both fall far noticeably behind behind Forts and Crabs.

 

To give you an idea of the disparity between Forts and NW. There is a testing thread in the scrapper forum, where the second fastest clear time is a Fort build, just under 5 mins. Where a NW build took 7 mins, which is not horrible, but much slower. And Banes are generally weaker than NWs.

 

 

Here's a whole thread were I tried to come up with a pure mace build, to avoid that horrible DPS eating redraw. I was able to solo at the same difficulty as a NW, but my god is was so much more effort.  Also, I would not call Bane attacks fast animating, it's one of their issues. Yes, though NWs are claw blenders that drink end.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Replace their single target placate with a better version of Concealment: Misdirection. Depending on how it's implemented, this could be the venom nade for NW and Banes. Of course, it would have to preclude Venom nade for the banes.

You can make VEATs' Placate AoE like Misdirection, but making it mutually exclusive with Venom Grenade ensures my Bane will never take it.

 

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Also, give them a weak taunt aura. Nothing that would interfere with tanker or brute taunting. Would make soloing a lot easier.

VEATs are not sturdy enough to survive having a taunt aura on teams.

[Razor Cure]

8 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Forts have massive burst damage potential.

Really? With their single BIG damage attack, the nuke? Which trades damage for the slow? And Forts dont even get the +rech power.

In no way at all do Forts have huge burst damage. Or you may as well say that every corr and fender can do massive bursts, since they have a nuke. I wouldnt call a 'once every 30-45 secs (at BEST) power giving said AT 'massive burst damage.'

 

11 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Night widows are superior to all mace Banes. Both fall far noticeably behind behind Forts and Crabs.

ASsuming you are basing that on actual numbers, which is fine. I think giving Banes a proper AoE (crowd control is awesome, but its no PBAoe) like WHirling Mace (which bane spider bosses use!) would help a lot. Also making the activation on Surveillance WAY quicker.

1 hour ago, Zeraphia said:

Honestly, a watered down version of the Stalker ATOs would be very helpful.

Agreed. The 1st set on Veat ATOs is just so meh. A fear power, when most will have a stack of DoT powers? Yeah, pass.

[KaizenSoze]

39 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You can make VEATs' Placate AoE like Misdirection, but making it mutually exclusive with Venom Grenade ensures my Bane will never take it.

 

VEATs are not sturdy enough to survive having a taunt aura on teams.

This I very much disagree on. I have tanked 4x8 DA "radio" missions, using AOE to keep aggro with my Fort.

 

If I can solo 4x8 anything in PI and DA radios, then I can survive having a taunt aura.

 

I have tanked lower level TFs. But, yes, not an ITF, too much constant -defense.

 

A fully built out crab has close to 2000 hp with perma-serum, 50% resists in several categories. Widow scaling resists make them very sturdy, you have to get comfortable with running at reduced hps. This took me awhile, kept hits green insps out of reflex.

 

Can VEATs tank Incarnate trials, probably not. But to say they cannot tank on teams. Just isn't true. 

[Haijinx]

Veats should get 500% max damage instead of 400%

 

The END boost was before inherent stamina I think.  It could stand being updated.  

 

Maybe some other tweaks, nothing as drastic as a lot of the ideas in this thread probably.  

 

That one ATO needs help, but lots of ATs have that issue.  At least they do have one good one.

 

 

[DZKFire]

VEATs don't really need a lot of help, and I say this with my Widow(3 fully IOd builds) having 100+ vet levels along with a Huntsman at 38.

 

A few of my suggestions would be:

 

Get rid of the weapon swapping. Some people say it's not a problem but that's not my experience. My Huntsman switches to bare hands -> mace -> gun on a very frequent basis, along with my Melee Fortunata build switching in claws constantly

 

Very slight buff to ranged Fortunata damage. Currently, so many people rate it as one of the "worst" performing EAT builds not counting the somewhat meme-y ranged mace Banes. Coincidentally, it's my favorite build. I would *slightly* increase psi-scream, TK Blast. Psi-nado possibly, I use it because it does mediocre aoe damage with some CC, but it's damage is lackluster across all psi blast sets imo (same with Psi-Scream)

 

Slight tweaks in NW and Bane so they aren't just Stalkers part 2 with buffs

 

Possibly add a minor taunt aura to Crab spiders. I don't have one, but they can be *super* tanky with the right build. I have a theory mids build but I'm off-put by the forced spider arms

 

Maybe have it so most Crab builds don't rely on uncontrollable pets/taking gun powers for competitive damage. Not sure, I don't have a Crab Spider because i loathe the spider arms 😛

[Turric]

I would not be adverse to some minor taunt power, like a punch voke thing, on any VEAT. As to their durability, my crabspider and huntsman can both reliably tank. My night widow is the one that could use the taunt mechanic since mobs run from her all the time. It is super annoying.

 

 

And a big hell yes to the redraw thing. Also, especially for widows, please allow us to select alternative claw types! Soldiers of Arachnos get different types of assault rifles but widows do not get choices.

[KaizenSoze]

This could work just as well for taunting. Especially, since it's optional.

 

 

[Doomrider]

Bane ranged attacks. Why do they even exist? They are so bad, with a slight exception to Poisonous Ray. 
Them all having a 2 sec animation makes them feel really bad on top of their base damage being undeservedly low.

NW and Banes could maybe use a sliding base crit chance. Maybe 5% at base and 1.5% for each team mate after, similar to Stalkers but at a reduced value. (Stalkers get 10% base, 3% per teammate IIRC)

The redraw thing sucks but I remember reading that trying to fix that was going to be a huge task specifically for VEATS with how their powers are essentially modified versions of the enemy powers or something like that.

[KaizenSoze]

19 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Bane ranged attacks. Why do they even exist? They are so bad, with a slight exception to Poisonous Ray. 
Them all having a 2 sec animation makes them feel really bad on top of their base damage being undeservedly low.

NW and Banes could maybe use a sliding base crit chance. Maybe 5% at base and 1.5% for each team mate after, similar to Stalkers but at a reduced value. (Stalkers get 10% base, 3% per teammate IIRC)

The redraw thing sucks but I remember reading that trying to fix that was going to be a huge task specifically for VEATS with how their powers are essentially modified versions of the enemy powers or something like that.

Yes, bane ranged attacks really suck. Even Poisonous ray isn't great unless paired with venom grenade's -40 toxic resists. The rest of venom nade resist debuffs are -20.

 

On top of that, the most of the animations are 2 secs. You literal set your feet and fire, the result plink! little damage. Except PR.

 

That thread I linked to goes over crits, re-hide timers, redraw, dead horses, etc..

Edited April 8, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[KaizenSoze]

Another placate shower thought.

 

Blaster, Martial Combat: Burst of Speed, which can be used three times quickly. Then it has a long recharge.

 

If placate could be used three times quickly, plus some other changes like full crits. That would give good single target burst damage.

 

I like the, Misdirection, idea better though.

[tidge]

On 4/8/2021 at 2:26 AM, Turric said:

I would not be adverse to some minor taunt power, like a punch voke thing, on any VEAT. As to their durability, my crabspider and huntsman can both reliably tank. My night widow is the one that could use the taunt mechanic since mobs run from her all the time. It is super annoying.

 

My Widow also has enemies scattering in 2π (even more if the mobs can fly!), but I would not want a Taunt aura. Personally, I'm not sure such a thing would actually keep enemies from scattering anyway. If a better Taunt is requested, then make Confront be a targeted AoE instead of the single-target Taunt. My Widows all dip into the Presence pool (to get Unrelenting) and Provoke is a trivial choice for me, as even with the ToHit check, 99% of the time I am trying to take aggro I want aggro from more than one enemy. The other 1% of the time something has gone SERIOUSLY wrong and I'd prefer the auto-hit Confront to interest Lord Recluse while my teammates are rezzing.

 

I do agree that the VEAT inherent seems peculiarly weak.

 

[KaizenSoze]

One more Night Widow specific shower suggestion.

 

Since, I apparently suck at using Eviscerate and often skip it. I know about the jump trick, but never remember to use it.

 

Move Eviscerate to level 32 and make as big as Bane's crowd control. That would make it worth taking IMO.