Please revert the Rage change.

[Captain Powerhouse]

This is a tangent but sooner or later SS will be ported to Scrappers, it wont be a carbon copy though, for a couple reasons.

 

First, as it was noted, tanker sets were originally meant to hit slower and harder (at least relative to other powers for their AT.) For the most part, this means they get powers like Seismic Smash, Total Focus and Knockout Blow.

 

Scrappers have over the years received a few similar powers with Kin Melee's Concentrated Strike and Street Justice Crushing Uppercut, but both these powers are actually suffering big penalties on the Scrapper side. Street Justice only crits for the base damage (that is way bellow what the recharge dictates unless you have a high combo level) and Concentrated Strike's "crit" simply means "auto-recharge."

 

So, any port of Super Str (or Energy or Stone) will either have slightly lower recharge versions of these powers that do somewhat less scale damage (due to modifiers they will still do more damage than the tanker versions) or their critcals will be a special trick instead of damage.

 

The other issue is Rage, scrapper damage buff modifiers are much higher than tankers or brutes, and rage, even with one stack, would be extremely strong. So it's likely that they would not get Rage as is, or at all.

[MunkiLord]

This makes me happy. 

[Kimuji]

5 hours ago, Rylas said:

Yes, that's absurd. But not for the reasoning you're strawmanning.

It's absurd because "melee" sets and Blaster "manipulation" sets have completely different intended functions. And more obviously, "melee" sets and "control" sets. Which is a completely different concept from proliferating a melee power set to other melee ATs. And the only reason it wasn't done for SS to Scrappers in the past would be because of balance issues. Not to avoid the "destruction of the game" as you're speculating.

 

Now, if you want to argue that SS numbers might need to be adjusted when ported over to Scrappers, I think that's a discussion worth having. But your argument as it stands is a terrible one.

I'm afraid I'm not strawmannig that much just look how this topic went. The title is "Please revert the Rage change", from that we went to a completely crash less Rage not just removing the defense crash, removing everything, and now we're talking proliferation... It's the very definition of a cascade reaction. And there are enough threads on this section of the forum to show that such demands will surface sooner or later with the same argument "you don't have to play it, don't ruin other people's fun". And that is completely ignoring that such demands also ruin some people's fun by greatly altering the game's identity.

I'm enjoying the game as it is, and I suppose they do as well because they wouldn't be here otherwise. The fact that all melee sets weren't available to all melee ATs never prevented them from having fun. Not proliferating some sets to other ATs will not remove anything from the fun they're already having. On the other hand it will make the game more bland for me and some other players, it will weaken ATs identities, in other words it will diminish our fun. We're talking hypothetical fun some would get vs the very real loss some others will feel because the game has been changed. I'm sorry but I'm not the one being selfish here, I'm not taking anything from anyone (ie I'm not asking to revert some proliferations), that's the way the game currently is they're not losing anything if some set aren't going to be proliferated. It's quite the contrary actually, they are asking for something that I enjoy to be removed so they can have MORE fun.

There's the same pattern on the EM thread, we were talking about how to fix EM and then we saw some people jump in "oh yeah and once EM is cool again please give it Scrappers". Seriously? This is pure hijacking.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Kimuji

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator

[Rylas]

34 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

I'm afraid I'm not strawmannig that much just look how this topic went. The title is "Please revert the Rage change", from that we went to a completely crash less Rage not just removing the defense crash, removing everything, and now we're talking proliferation... It's the very definition of a cascade reaction.

I'd say it's more an example of evolution of problem solving and the evolution of the game itself which was taking place before homecoming. The -Def in the crash was problematic as it punished some power sets more than others. The currently discussed solution isn't really a problem either in terms of game balance. Cashless single stacked Rage? Wheres the problem with that? How is this destroying the game?

 

34 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

I'm enjoying the game as it is, and I suppose they do as well because they wouldn't be here otherwise. The fact that all melee sets weren't available to all melee ATs never prevented them from having fun. Not proliferating some sets to other ATs will not remove anything from the fun they're already having. On the other hand it will make the game more bland for me and some other players, it will weaken ATs identities, in other words it will diminish our fun. We're talking hypothetical fun some would get vs the very real loss some others will feel because the game has been changed. I'm sorry but I'm not the one being selfish here, I'm not taking anything from anyone (ie I'm not asking to revert some proliferations), that's the way the game currently is they're not losing anything if some set aren't going to be proliferated. It's quite the contrary actually, they are asking for something that I enjoy to be removed so they can have MORE fun.

There's the same pattern on the EM thread, we were talking about how to fix EM and then we saw some people jump in "oh yeah and once EM is cool again please give it Scrappers". Seriously? This is pure hijacking.

Proliferation if melee sets to other melee ATs isn't going to weaken any ATs identities. People are still making Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers and having fun with them. And those "lines" have always been blurred in this game considering the Tank, Mage, DPS formula has never been part of this game. 

 

The only person who's going to ruin your fun is you in this situation. Someone else having access to SS does nothing to your ability to play the set and enjoy it. Only your attitude can rob you of that. 

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Vindicator said:

Build Up in place of Rage.  Crit as normal.  ?

Rage is the set-defining power for SS (Footstomp notwithstanding). Is it really SS if it doesn't have Rage?

[Kimuji]

31 minutes ago, Rylas said:

I'd say it's more an example of evolution of problem solving and the evolution of the game itself which was taking place before homecoming. The -Def in the crash was problematic as it punished some power sets more than others. The currently discussed solution isn't really a problem either in terms of game balance. Cashless single stacked Rage? Wheres the problem with that? How is this destroying the game?

 

Proliferation if melee sets to other melee ATs isn't going to weaken any ATs identities. People are still making Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers and having fun with them. And those "lines" have always been blurred in this game considering the Tank, Mage, DPS formula has never been part of this game. 

 

The only person who's going to ruin your fun is you in this situation. Someone else having access to SS does nothing to your ability to play the set and enjoy it. Only your attitude can rob you of that. 

 

That sort argument is easily reversed: only your attitude can rob you of enjoying SS in its current form. We could close most of the suggestions on this forum with that argument.

If when I create a new character and check the available powersets I realize that they're all available for all the ATs, yes, it is an obvious layer of distinctive flavor between ATs that has been removed. It weakens the game's personality. I'm not taking away that myself, it's something that has been changed in the game, it's not just in my head. It is an aspect of the game that has been removed. ATs are more than just dmg/def/res modifiers. Devs didn't only restrict certain sets to specific ATs for balance sake, there was also theme and identity reasons behind it. And some happen to like it.

And you are right the majority of the powersets have been proliferated between ATs, but can't we at least keep a couple of them exclusive? Is that really too big of a concession? To me the concessions going in the other direction have already made several times: a lot of former exclusive sets have been made available to other ATs. Why making just one or two is so unacceptable?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Kimuji

[MunkiLord]

9 minutes ago, macskull said:

Rage is the set-defining power for SS (Footstomp notwithstanding). Is it really SS if it doesn't have Rage?

It wouldn't be my preferred version, but I'd accept it if that is how it ended up. Really I'm much more excited about the possibility of Stone Melee on Scrappers.

[Leogunner]

9 minutes ago, macskull said:

Rage is the set-defining power for SS (Footstomp notwithstanding). Is it really SS if it doesn't have Rage?

Perhaps that's why I've never played Super Strength on anything.  It's just a badly designed set constantly quibbled over by comic lore nuts and min/maxers number crunching the biggest numbers.  The only good thing about the set, IMO, is KO Blow for the aesthetic Popeye uppercut.  The rest is bland filler or an overpowered set-defining buff.  Even Footstomp is literally just a copy-paste of other similar powers from Ice and Earth but with less flavor.

[Rylas]

2 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

That sort argument is easily reversed: only your attitude can rob you of enjoying SS in its current form. We could close most of the suggestions on this forum with that argument.

Except, I've never claimed not proliferating it has robbed me of any fun. And not proliferating it wouldn't. But the question of whether or not it can/should be is more of a question for game balance. And as I've stated, as long as the proliferation doesn't create a situation of balance concerns, I don't see any reason why it can't be. I've left how I feel about it out of the equation.

2 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

If when I create a new character and check the available powersets I realize that they're all available for all the ATs, yes, it is an obvious layer of distinctive flavor between ATs that has been removed.

Unfortunately for your continued strawman of "all ATs," what was asked for isn't to make SS available to all ATs. Just to one more Melee AT that already shares pretty much all the other Melee sets with all the other Melee ATs. It's not unprecedented. And AT flavor has very little to do with the sets, and way more to do with damage and buff multipliers.

2 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

It weakens the game's personality. I'm not taking away that myself, it's something that has been changed in the game, it's not just in my head. It is an aspect of the game that has been removed. Again devs didn't only restrict certain sets to specific ATs for balance sake, there was also theme and identity reasons behind it. And some happen to like it.

Theme and identity reasons that those same devs clearly reconsidered and found no longer relevant. It happens. Things change. Things evolve. That's the way of all things that don't stagnate and disappear. I understand if you don't like it, and you have every right not to on a personal level. But basing things off of likes/dislikes alone isn't really a great basis for decision making. It's your opinion that it would ruin the game, but that's not a fact.

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Perhaps that's why I've never played Super Strength on anything.  It's just a badly designed set constantly quibbled over by comic lore nuts and min/maxers number crunching the biggest numbers.  The only good thing about the set, IMO, is KO Blow for the aesthetic Popeye uppercut.  The rest is bland filler or an overpowered set-defining buff.  Even Footstomp is literally just a copy-paste of other similar powers from Ice and Earth but with less flavor.

I assume you're referring to Tremor and Frozen Aura in which case I can assure you Footstomp is a copy-paste of neither of those. All three of those powers have different stats.

Edited September 1, 2019 by macskull

[Kimuji]

1 minute ago, Rylas said:

Unfortunately for your continued strawman of "all ATs," what was asked for isn't to make SS available to all ATs. Just to one more Melee AT that already shares pretty much all the other Melee sets with all the other Melee ATs. It's not unprecedented.

Give me some credit here, I never meant that you wanted to give SS to defenders. I meant available to all melee ATs. And it's not just one more AT, if you're giving it to Scrappers then there is no reason to deny Stalkers the possibility to have it as well.

Quote

And AT flavor has very little to do with the sets, and way more to do with damage and buff multipliers.

I strongly disagree with that, ATs are much more than numbers. That's what make CoH's system richer.

Quote

Theme and identity reasons that those same devs clearly reconsidered and found no longer relevant. It happens. Things change. Things evolve. That's the way of all things that don't stagnate and disappear. I understand if you don't like it, and you have every right not to on a personal level. But basing things off of likes/dislikes alone isn't really a great basis for decision making. It's your opinion that it would ruin the game, but that's not a fact.

Just like "Rage's crash ruins SS", it's an opinion not a fact.

[Rylas]

6 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Give me some credit here, I never meant that you wanted to give SS to defenders. I meant available to all melee ATs. And it's not just one more AT, if you're giving it to Scrappers then there is no reason to deny Stalkers the possibility to have it as well.

Of course not. But just like every other set that Stalkers get, it won't have all the same powers and would be adjusted for balance.

6 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

I strongly disagree with that, ATs are much more than numbers. That's what make CoH's system richer.

As far as it goes between all the melee ATs (Stalkers being an exception), it really is just a matter of the multipliers.

6 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Just like "Rage's crash ruins SS", it's an opinion not a fact.

Correct. What wouldn't be opinion is the way the crash affects Defense based sets more harshly than Resistance based sets. Or that the difference in punishment would appear entirely arbitrary.

[Kimuji]

Yes and that's why the removal of the -def as long as the player doesn't stack Rage (and gets the -def if rage is stacked) was an ok solution, but we went much further than this.

[Rylas]

1 minute ago, Kimuji said:

Yes and that's why the removal of the -def as long as the player doesn't stack Rage (and gets the -def if rage is stacked) was an ok solution, but we went much further than this.

True, but I'm not sure how much of an issue that really is. The thing about SS is that it was all built around having Rage as a perma power. Since it's smashing damage is highly resisted by late game, it would be an incredibly low performing power set without it. I'm sure you're aware, but I only mention because it's not unreasonable to then ask; Should a set that requires a perma power to perform on the same level as other sets be required to have any form of punishment for said power? It's a question that could certainly lead to multiple answers and opinions. True. But considering how other sets perform at this point the suggestion of single instance Rage not having a crash doesn't lead to balance issues. It wouldn't even take SS to the top of the performance chart.

 

Does it change the power? To a degree. Does that mean a slippery slope has been created? Hardly.

[Haijinx]

See, I don't buy the Smashing is heavily resisted thus Double Stacked Rage argument.

 

Smashing is one of the most common Melee damage types.  And none but SS gets Rage at all.  

 

I doubt that whether Smashing is resisted figures into the balance at all.  

 

 

[MunkiLord]

2 hours ago, Kimuji said:

 if you're giving it to Scrappers then there is no reason to deny Stalkers the possibility to have it as well.

Agreed. Stalkers should also get Titan Weapons too as far as I'm concerned.

[Vitruvius]

i have an ss/fire, spines/fire, and rad/fire... all brutes

 

preferred the rad/fire until i realized i'm just being greedy about the damage buff... 1 rage is plenty...

 

yeah, the defense debuff can be deadly in certain situations, so i carry purples... playing a brute in pve, i pretty much only carry purples anyway... what else do you need?

 

and with /ah being accessible almost anywhere, and insp vendors on every corner, its very easy to stay stocked

 

now my ss/fire is by favorite by far... i don't see a need for a change... feel like there are a lot of melee powersets that could use more lovin than ss at this point

[Megajoule]

Heck, I'd be glad to do away with Rage simply because one of my characters with SS doesn't "rage".  That's just one reason (avoiding the crash is another) I've gimped myself avoided taking the power on him.

[Kimuji]

7 minutes ago, Vitruvius said:

now my ss/fire is by favorite by far... i don't see a need for a change... feel like there are a lot of melee powersets that could use more lovin than ss at this point

Like EM *subliminal idea*

[kelly Rocket]

1 hour ago, Megajoule said:

Heck, I'd be glad to do away with Rage simply because one of my characters with SS doesn't "rage".  That's just one reason (avoiding the crash is another) I've gimped myself avoided taking the power on him.

It's just a name... If it was called "Longer weaker Build-Up" would you be skipping it?

 

I like to RP and theme is important to me, but I don't care what the powers are named. I'll fluff it to be whatever I want.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, kelly Rocket said:

It's just a name... If it was called "Longer weaker Build-Up" would you be skipping it?

 

I like to RP and theme is important to me, but I don't care what the powers are named. I'll fluff it to be whatever I want.

how is it weaker than Build-up?

 

Its more like "All the time Build-up"

[kelly Rocket]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

how is it weaker than Build-up?

 

Its more like "All the time Build-up"

Ah, so it is. I was thinking of Blaster Build-Up where they get a 100% damage boost (As compared to Brutes who only get 80%).

[Lazarillo]

On 9/1/2019 at 1:43 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

This is a tangent but sooner or later SS will be ported to Scrappers, it wont be a carbon copy though, for a couple reasons.

I feel teased.  Does anyone else feel teased?

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator