Resolved: Move LGTF Minimum Level Requirement Back Up to 45+

[Mr. Vee]

It kills me that I'm losing something fun to do from 35-45 just because some folks are worried that someone might fail a tf. Especially when half the threads on the forums are about how easy the game is and there are plenty wanting more tf content too. This is a terrible 'resolution'.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Mr. Vee

[Bionic_Flea]

Flea agree with Vee!

[Apparition]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Vee said:

It kills me that I'm losing something fun to do from 35-45 just because some folks are worried that someone might fail a tf. Especially when half the threads on the forums are about how easy the game is and there are plenty wanting more tf content too. This is a terrible 'resolution'.

 

 

There's an extreme difference between risking failure, and a trap that gives you no chance at all.

[TemporalVileTerror]

While that much is true and fair, I think it's also fair to remind everyone that a precedent has been set about a vocal outcry from certain individuals regarding gating people out of content related to the Rikti War Zone.
Kind of puts a damper on the theoretical altruism of it, yeah?

 

Frankly, I too think it sucks that the impending solution to the problem is presently what I've tested on Beta.  Other options exist.  I get that the Devs have limited time and resources to address it in a more robust and meaningful way . . . but it still leaves a damned bitter taste in my mouth to see it tackled quite like this.

[Razor Cure]

23 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

impending solution to the problem is presently what I've tested on Beta

What was/is the solution on Beta?

[GraspingVileTerror]

45 to 54 Weakened Hamidon, while players 44 and lower are completely locked out.

[Razor Cure]

I..really cant see that as a problem. The TF should never have allowed people UNDER 45 to join, in my opinion. End game content at all.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Except that this isn't w.o.w.  

It's City of Heroes!

The Never-Ending Game.

[Razor Cure]

It doesnt end simply because we keep maknig alts and doing the same content. It isnt 'not ending' because the 50+ content keeps being added (for obvious reasons). The LGTF was written as 50 content. So why the problem keeping it that way?

Honest question..IF the LG was never ever changed to 35+, would you be calling for it to become 35+? Would anyone? (of course some would). May as well argue we need 35+ Kahns, or RSF. They both make as much, that is, none at all, sense.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Level gating is what doesn't make sense.  The level system in place here is a throwback to an era when game design for MMOs didn't get iterated upon very much.  But City of Heroes was a trailblazer in a lot of ways, particularly for features such as Sidekicking and Exemplaring.  It's only natural for those progressive trends to continue here on Homecoming, as Devs become wiser and learn from both positive and negative examples within their own projects, and beyond.  Changes that support greater accessibility and player self-determination are always excellent changes.  It's the very foundation that City of Heroes was built on, after all.

[Mr. Vee]

We've done just fine with it 35+ for 2 years. I'd be happy to run LRSF/Kahn etc on a 35, sure, but I know what kind of responses that'd get in the suggestions forum. ITF over and over from 35-45 gets boring as hell. LG relieved that some. 

[Razor Cure]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Vee said:

We've done just fine with it 35+ for 2 years. I'd be happy to run LRSF/Kahn etc on a 35, sure, but I know what kind of responses that'd get in the suggestions forum. ITF over and over from 35-45 gets boring as hell. LG relieved that some. 

Yeah, cause from 35 to 50..WHAT else is there, but to coast with a lowbie on LadyGrey? I cant think of any other way to hit 50.

 

 

[Apparition]

Game progression is not gatekeeping.  It's been the cornerstone of MMOGs since EverQuest in 1999, and is too fundamental to how City of Heroes works and has worked for seventeen years to fundamentally alter.

[GraspingVileTerror]

My point is that LEVELS do not need to be the only form of GAME PROGRESSION.

[Lykkio]

1 hour ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

My point is that LEVELS do not need to be the only form of GAME PROGRESSION.

They are quite evidently not the only form of game progression.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Do you mean specific to City of Heroes, @Lykkio?  Because, if so, then let's take a deeper look.

Badges represent a form of progression, allowing players to earn tiers of Badges or Accolades, or have content unlocked such as missions or other reward structures.

Story Arcs can operate in a similar way, offering a structured approach of progression with their own layers and rewards that are outside of Experience gain.

Inf or other in-game currencies can also work, allowing access to content and Powers that are otherwise nominally behind level gates.

 

Any and all of these could be applied on a wider scale, specifically to the likes of Task Forces and Mission content, giving players the personal agency to determine when and how they would like to play.

 

What I am asking for is the natural progression of where City of Heroes game design has already been going.

[Mr. Vee]

11 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Yeah, cause from 35 to 50..WHAT else is there, but to coast with a lowbie on LadyGrey? I cant think of any other way to hit 50.

 

 

Some of us only like to TF, not farm or run PI radios or solo arc stuff. Lady grey was an option other than ITF that gave good exp and that you could actually fill quickly. And who's to say we're all coasting just because we're lowbies? I've been on several with lowbies where I was the one letting the hostages loose and tp'ing folks around. This is taking away an option. It's fine that you don't play that way and so don't care, but I do, and I do.

[Apparition]

13 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

My point is that LEVELS do not need to be the only form of GAME PROGRESSION.

 

No, and they are not the only form of game progression.  However, they are one of the forms of game progression and an important one.  Also, the belief that City of Heroes is naturally progressing towards a largely level less experience with “personal agency” doesn’t jive with the facts that Paragon Studios added another form of endgame in 2010 and locked it all behind level 50 and, according to the various AMAs, planned to continue expanding with level 50 only content for years and years.

 

I am sorry, but what you have been describing for the past two years is not City of Heroes.  It’s some other game.  It may be an interesting and even good game, but myself and a whole bunch of others signed up to Homecoming to play City of Heroes.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Apparition

[Alchemystic]

For something marked resolved, it sure doesn't feel like it

[Greycat]

16 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Level gating is what doesn't make sense.  The level system in place here is a throwback to an era when game design for MMOs didn't get iterated upon very much.  But City of Heroes was a trailblazer in a lot of ways, particularly for features such as Sidekicking and Exemplaring.  It's only natural for those progressive trends to continue here on Homecoming, as Devs become wiser and learn from both positive and negative examples within their own projects, and beyond.  Changes that support greater accessibility and player self-determination are always excellent changes.  It's the very foundation that City of Heroes was built on, after all.

 

Grabbing this post.

 

Yes, level gating does make sense in some instances. Frankly, those events that are "levelless" show why it doesn't really work - and shouldn't be applied overall as a solution or alternative to gating. Take a group of lowbies into - say - a KR Rikti invasion. They'll have trouble - even without having enough to trigger the higher tier spawns. They don't have the powers to deal with it. Drop a 50 in there SKing them? They still don't have the powers to deal with it. Their powers may *hit* for more - but they will still have issues (or the 50 will be doing most of the work.)

 

Yes, the way SKing and exemping work in COH is unique, and one of the great things about the game. But it doesn't *fix* this.

 

Think about the rest of the content that's gated. Would you take a group of lvl 10s that can handle Posi 1 just fine and drop them directly into an ITF? Or a MLTF? Even a Manticore? Of course not, they'd just be slaughtered. "Greater accessibility" at that point just translates into "greater frustration and dissatisfaction."

 

It works the other way around, too. Take a group of incarnated 50s and have them at full strength running a Posi. Even with those enemies being "levelless," there's not going to be a challenge there - other than people wanting to run it solo for a few fast merits, you'd see calls for "better scaling" or "Incarnate-level Vahz," which ... is another form of gating, in a way, because the low levels the TF's designed for now would not see those.

 

And yes, some things *have* had their level restrictions removed. "Great for teaming," maybe, but it doesn't help someone wandering in on their own. If a level 20 goes into the RWZ on their own, not part of a team, not looking for a raid - what are they going to do? Anything they face outside - even if it was levelless - would, again, slaughter them. What would they do against a pack of Malta - especially a hazard-zone-size pack?

 

So, while no, levels are not the "only form of progression" (for instance, with many of my characters the important (to me) progression is completely intangible, as it's the evolution of their backstory and history, not a number,) in most cases it's the only one the game can reasonably use to keep players from running into content they can't finish, that would be frustrating and, frankly, is too difficult for even the most advanced, slotted out character at that level to reasonably accomplish. In other words, yes, it is good for the game - used properly.

[golstat2003]

21 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

My point is that LEVELS do not need to be the only form of GAME PROGRESSION.

 

Great, some one can do that in ANOTHER game.

 

It's not realistic to think something like that can come to this game. I don't think such a change would be worth the time, and it would cause all sorts of issues folks have already outlined.

Edited May 29, 2021 by golstat2003

[Razor Cure]

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

Yes, level gating does make sense in some instances.

Greycat just said it PERFECTLY.

That is exactly why not everything should be doable by everyone. If it could..where does it end? Level 2 lowbies in Atlas starting incarnate trails?

 

There are PLENTY of other TFs to do, from 35+ onwards, in the case of people who only wanna do task forces.

 

 

[Mr. Vee]

Yes, there are plenty of TFs in that range. Of those most are terrible (shards, sutter), lousy exp (numina, treespec), tough to fill regularly (a.sewer, mistral, freakspec) or all of the above. LG is good, doesn't take long, and is generally pretty easy to get folks to agree to. In that range I generally end up running ITF, Morty, LG, Manti (which I'm already tired of from the 30-35 days), and then add market crash to the mix at 40.

But my personal preferences aside, I don't see any reason that taking it back to 35 is the only way to fix this. There have been several solutions suggested up thread. It seems like the main reason is "it was 45 on live." Well that's just another in the long list of things that sucked on live compared to HC. And as long as we're doing the slippery slope fallacy with level 2 incarnate trials why don't we just roll back the recipe bucketing because a newb might pay 20 million for a miracle unique - it wasn't that way on live after all 🤪

[Grouchybeast]

9 hours ago, Mr. Vee said:

But my personal preferences aside, I don't see any reason that taking it back to 35 is the only way to fix this. There have been several solutions suggested up thread. It seems like the main reason is "it was 45 on live." 

The LGTF is the culmination of the whole RWZ story arc.  I know the narrative timelines of CoX are all over the place, and that got much worse towards the end of the game's life, but the least we can do to help players navigate through is not to make it worse.  The LGTF should definitely not be lower level than the arcs that lead into it.

[Razor Cure]

16 hours ago, Mr. Vee said:

Of those most are terrible (shards, sutter), lousy exp (numina, treespec), tough to fill regularly (a.sewer, mistral, freakspec) or all of the above. LG is good, doesn't take long, and is generally pretty easy to get folks to agree to. In that range I generally end up running ITF, Morty, LG, Manti (which I'm already tired of from the 30-35 days), and then add market crash to the mix at 40.

 

35+ TFs.

Numi/Mistral

4 Respecs (both sides)

ITF

Sutter/Morty Kal

Kahn/Cuda

RSF/STF

4 Shard TFs

Sewers

Woodsman

Lady Grey

 That is a lot. Lady Grey is one tf among alll those.

 

7 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

The LGTF should definitely not be lower level than the arcs that lead into it.

 Right?

 

Just to hijack the topic..How about the fact blue side has SIX  more tfs, in those level ranges? And RSF requires a huge story arc to be done? Sure, side switching and everything, but still.