Rebuilding rage.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Please post comparative damage per animation times for SS no rage, stone, ice, rad, broadsword, from t1 to t9.

 

As this was already done in another thread, I'd bet dollars to donuts it's not what you think it is. Hint: there's only 1 power that dramatically underperforms.

 

The fix the devs tried with no crash single stack only was beautiful. But the double rage glitch stackers complained loudly.

I think in raw damage they underperform and in DPA, but some have quick recharges so the DPS is similar.  So it's like death by 1000% papercuts.  Something about that doesn't scream super strength.

[SwitchFade]

this is the thread with relevant discussion.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

5 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

I think in raw damage they underperform and in DPA, but some have quick recharges so the DPS is similar.  So it's like death by 1000% papercuts.  Something about that doesn't scream super strength.

The only power in SS that has lower dpamimation than the other sets is jab.

 

With no Rage running, SS is on par with other sets. With 1 stack of rage, I believe it has higher dpanimation than most. There is, and always should be, a balance penalty to that kind of buff.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

The only power in SS that has lower dpamimation than the other sets is jab.

 

With no Rage running, SS is on par with other sets. With 1 stack of rage, I believe it has higher dpanimation than most. There is, and always should be, a balance penalty to that kind of buff.

not true also Punch, Hurl and Haymaker is pretty much tied for last as far as T3s go.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

The only power in SS that has lower dpamimation than the other sets is jab.

 

With no Rage running, SS is on par with other sets. With 1 stack of rage, I believe it has higher dpanimation than most. There is, and always should be, a balance penalty to that kind of buff.

and so what you are saying is that there is no justification for such a strong Rage buff?  

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

Well Archery, Fire Blast, etc. have access to perma Soul Drain in addition to Aim...so yeah they kind of do.  

 

Also Martial Arts has Eagle's Claw which gives a damage bonus, and Storm Kick with +def.  Wow a set that doesn't debuff itself.  And like someone else said sets like War Mace, Martial Arts, etc. don't suck w/o their dmg boosters.   

 

All of this points to the terrible design of the current state of Rage.  Rage has nothing to do with Super Strength as a concept, the crash is the antithesis of Super Strength, and it is just bad design for the set and for a power.  The current Rage was a lazy quick fix for the set.  Which is sad because of the iconic nature of SS in the Super Hero genre.  

 

Edit

Don't forget perma Soul Drain on Dark Melee and double and triple stacked Follow Up in Claws. 

 

And what is the average buff and uptime of said buff (Soul Drain + Aim)?  I tend to not try to be disingenuous when making comparisons but taking into account outside powers will get you a lot of shady areas since having access to AoE powers not balanced around the presence of Rage (or double stacked) has always felt unfair in Rage's favor and Soul Drain requiring many targets to get a high bonus was its balancing factor.

 

As for War Mace and Martial Arts not sucking without damage boosters, that's kind of the fucking point.  If those sets did suck without Rage, that would make SS unfairly more powerful.  If they made Rage non-perma and just a regular BU, then SS would be unfairly weak.  I KNOW you understand this simple logic but you're trying to twist things to make people arguing against you wrong while completely ignoring the fact you're twisting words, definitions, logic and arguments harder than a pro-wrestling league rival plot.

 

Falling back on Rage not working with your concept of SS....I DO NOT CARE!  I don't fucking care.  Storm Summoning doesn't conform to my concept of summoning storms and THAT'S FUCKING FINE! Learn to separate your dream concepts and *conform* to the tools a game gives you.

 

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

The set would still be bad from a fun-factor perspective (I don't care personally if every power could one-shot an AV, frankly, a power that encourages alt-tabbing is abysmal), but in that case, "balance" could probably be achieved, yeah.  But then Rage would have to be nerfed even harder.  So you'd be okay with that, right?  Granted, I would.  Personally.  Just buff the rest of the set and let me skip Rage (in theory, anyway...frankly, I don't think any power in any set should just be dismissed as a skip power, but most sets have them).  But that's far less reasonable than just making Rage not suck.

 

Then get a 2nd monitor.

 

This game isn't twitch reflex competitive play.  It's slow and deliberate.  But I believe the point of the argument about turning Rage into a BU clone and rebalancing the whole set is that doing so makes the set just a clone of other powersets.  If you want that, go play Martial Arts or Street Justice. 

 

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

If it's the only set that has to take a penalty, then good balance should indicate it'd be above them.  You're all for 0 damage for every TW attack that doesn't have Momentum applied, I suppose?

 

Why does SS, and SS alone, have to pay to be "middle"?

 

Personally speaking, I think missing a TW attack should make you lose momentum as a balancing point for the set but the set has already received some lickings and it's still a high performer.  Your contention seems to be tied up in envy that SS isn't above TW?  If not, being balanced should be the goal, not being the best....which is the arguing point you don't seem to understand.

 

And no, having a penalty to help make you balanced doesn't give you a free ticket to be the best.  Jeeze.

 

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

And since this came in while I was writing my last post... the point of Super Strength is that these aren't supposed to be considered tremendous feats of strength. They're just how strong you are naturally, so that you lifting a car is like a normal person lifting a toy. That's the argument being made for why the crash doesn't fit the theme.

 

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

no they are not because they are super strong, it is what they do.  And their feats are not so great seeing as how it's a middle of the pack set.

 

So you are the type of RPers that like to godmode and be ultra powerful?  I also bet you're the type that would want to skip all the ikky RP talking/conversations and get to rolling the combat die.

 

As for naturally being strong, YOU ARE!!  You can hurl boulders, uppercut foes into the sky, clap your hands and break the sound barrier or stomp your foot and upheave a room to the ceiling....you just don't get all the D33ps you're looking for.  The fact you can't even see that makes me chuckle.  Come on, guys...

[SwitchFade]

15 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

not true also Punch, Hurl and Haymaker is pretty much tied for last as far as T3s go.

Please post dpanimation comparing those to other powers in other sets.

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

And what is the average buff and uptime of said buff (Soul Drain + Aim)?  I tend to not try to be disingenuous when making comparisons but taking into account outside powers will get you a lot of shady areas since having access to AoE powers not balanced around the presence of Rage (or double stacked) has always felt unfair in Rage's favor and Soul Drain requiring many targets to get a high bonus was its balancing factor.

 

As for War Mace and Martial Arts not sucking without damage boosters, that's kind of the fucking point.  If those sets did suck without Rage, that would make SS unfairly more powerful.  If they made Rage non-perma and just a regular BU, then SS would be unfairly weak.  I KNOW you understand this simple logic but you're trying to twist things to make people arguing against you wrong while completely ignoring the fact you're twisting words, definitions, logic and arguments harder than a pro-wrestling league rival plot.

 

Falling back on Rage not working with your concept of SS....I DO NOT CARE!  I don't fucking care.  Storm Summoning doesn't conform to my concept of summoning storms and THAT'S FUCKING FINE! Learn to separate your dream concepts and *conform* to the tools a game gives you.

 

 

Then get a 2nd monitor.

 

This game isn't twitch reflex competitive play.  It's slow and deliberate.  But I believe the point of the argument about turning Rage into a BU clone and rebalancing the whole set is that doing so makes the set just a clone of other powersets.  If you want that, go play Martial Arts or Street Justice. 

 

 

Personally speaking, I think missing a TW attack should make you lose momentum as a balancing point for the set but the set has already received some lickings and it's still a high performer.  Your contention seems to be tied up in envy that SS isn't above TW?  If not, being balanced should be the goal, not being the best....which is the arguing point you don't seem to understand.

 

And no, having a penalty to help make you balanced doesn't give you a free ticket to be the best.  Jeeze.

 

 

 

So you are the type of RPers that like to godmode and be ultra powerful?  I also bet you're the type that would want to skip all the ikky RP talking/conversations and get to rolling the combat die.

 

As for naturally being strong, YOU ARE!!  You can hurl boulders, uppercut foes into the sky, clap your hands and break the sound barrier or stomp your foot and upheave a room to the ceiling....you just don't get all the D33ps you're looking for.  The fact you can't even see that makes me chuckle.  Come on, guys...

Lol, me RP?  I'll tell you my play style...I play pretty much everything at +4/8 and mostly run TFs with Inspirations turned off.  I often play with enemies buffed and players debuffed.  Sometimes we even turn off enhancements.  We also run death-has-consequences TFs where if you die you either quit or get kicked.  

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

Lol, me RP?  I'll tell you my play style...I play pretty much everything at +4/8 and mostly run TFs with Inspirations turned off.  I often play with enemies buffed and players debuffed.  Sometimes we even turn off enhancements.  We also run death-has-consequences TFs where if you die you either quit or get kicked.  

Then I have no idea why you cling to the moniker "Super" in the name Super Strength.  It's literally just words that then have to fit in a game where a person without "super" strength but rather "trained and abnormal" strength (see any other physical set) has to be balanced to function *at least* similarly.

 

That said, I think the suggestion @Vanden pointed to seem like a good idea.  A damage proc type effect would, at least, be unique with the only other power that does something like that coming from Plant Manipulation and Fiery Aura.  Only thing that miffs me about that is the extra damage isn't affected by damage buffs.  

[FUBARczar]

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

Then I have no idea why you cling to the moniker "Super" in the name Super Strength.  It's literally just words that then have to fit in a game where a person without "super" strength but rather "trained and abnormal" strength (see any other physical set) has to be balanced to function *at least* similarly.

 

That said, I think the suggestion @Vanden pointed to seem like a good idea.  A damage proc type effect would, at least, be unique with the only other power that does something like that coming from Plant Manipulation and Fiery Aura.  Only thing that miffs me about that is the extra damage isn't affected by damage buffs.  

#1 is that Rage is of poor design.  The original form got people addicted to "crack", causing people to rage about keeping their double stack.  And then to "fix" Rage a lazy crash was slapped onto to the end without giving the power and set proper consideration.  But the fix for the broken power was broken and avoidable so they made it unresistable.  So they went from bad to still bad to really bad. 

 

#2 The set suffers because of the broken power.  The broken power Rage isn't available until lvl 28 on Tanks so while leveling up to 28 the powers are not good.   Rage's so called balance also does not take into to consideration it's affect on powers in Defensive sets, Power and Epic pools   Rage allows for broken slotting such as not slotting for any accuracy and only putting in procs.  There is all sorts of stupidness in and around Rage.  In a way Rage is an Exploit in the game and should be addressed.

 

#3 Also words have these things called meaning and Rage has nothing to do with Super Strength.  Sorry that I think for good game design a game should stick to it's own themes.  Yes Jab and Punch have similar DPS compared to some other sets because of lower recharge times.  But that isn't Super Strength, super speed maybe.  So as a part of that game design the powers should relate to the theme and it has nothing to do with RP.   MA feels kinda like what one would expect.  StJ feels way more like Super Strength than Super Strength.  I also think they should get rid of Fire Swords and Ice Swords just because they are kinda lame design wise as well.

 

#4 For those that do RP good for them, and for them the power is uncharacteristic to the theme. 

 

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

#1 is that Rage is of poor design.  The original form got people addicted to "crack", causing people to rage about keeping their double stack.  And then to "fix" Rage a lazy crash was slapped onto to the end without giving the power and set proper consideration.  But the fix for the broken power was broken and avoidable so they made it unresistable.  So they went from bad to still bad to really bad. 

 

#2 The set suffers because of the broken power.  The broken power Rage isn't available until lvl 28 on Tanks so while leveling up to 28 the powers are not good.   Rage's so called balance also does not take into to consideration it's affect on powers in Defensive sets, Power and Epic pools   Rage allows for broken slotting such as not slotting for any accuracy and only putting in procs.  There is all sorts of stupidness in and around Rage.  In a way Rage is an Exploit in the game and should be addressed.

 

#3 Also words have these things called meaning and Rage has nothing to do with Super Strength.  Sorry that I think for good game design a game should stick to it's own themes.  Yes Jab and Punch have similar DPS compared to some other sets because of lower recharge times.  But that isn't Super Strength, super speed maybe.  So as a part of that game design the powers should relate to the theme and it has nothing to do with RP.   MA feels kinda like what one would expect.  StJ feels way more like Super Strength than Super Strength.  I also think they should get rid of Fire Swords and Ice Swords just because they are kinda lame design wise as well.

 

#4 For those that do RP good for them, and for them the power is uncharacteristic to the theme. 

 

 

 

 

There was always a Rage crash

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

#1 is that Rage is of poor design.  The original form got people addicted to "crack", causing people to rage about keeping their double stack.  And then to "fix" Rage a lazy crash was slapped onto to the end without giving the power and set proper consideration.  But the fix for the broken power was broken and avoidable so they made it unresistable.  So they went from bad to still bad to really bad. 

 

#2 The set suffers because of the broken power.  The broken power Rage isn't available until lvl 28 on Tanks so while leveling up to 28 the powers are not good.   Rage's so called balance also does not take into to consideration it's affect on powers in Defensive sets, Power and Epic pools   Rage allows for broken slotting such as not slotting for any accuracy and only putting in procs.  There is all sorts of stupidness in and around Rage.  In a way Rage is an Exploit in the game and should be addressed.

 

#3 Also words have these things called meaning and Rage has nothing to do with Super Strength.  Sorry that I think for good game design a game should stick to it's own themes.  Yes Jab and Punch have similar DPS compared to some other sets because of lower recharge times.  But that isn't Super Strength, super speed maybe.  So as a part of that game design the powers should relate to the theme and it has nothing to do with RP.   MA feels kinda like what one would expect.  StJ feels way more like Super Strength than Super Strength.  I also think they should get rid of Fire Swords and Ice Swords just because they are kinda lame design wise as well.

 

#4 For those that do RP good for them, and for them the power is uncharacteristic to the theme. 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a certain expectation of what dark powers are/look like/function.  But the game defines dark powers differently. That's how game rules/limitations work. It's called Homecoming, not Homebrew. You can't just make your own pet power set, you have to work with the tools available. If you don't like how the powers are defined, that's just something you're going to have to live with and pushing forward the argument that "words have meanings" ignores that groups create those meanings and the group that created the meanings here define those terms different from comics. It's not wholly different but it's apparently different enough for someone to have to explain the difference to you.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Fine, one set has to be number 1 and one hast to be last, and if SS is in the middle all is well right? 

I still don’t understand “where’s the crime?” when an acknowledgment like this is made.
 

Guess there’s those lower levels, but then how many sets are late bloomers? Feels like plenty of em. 
 

Then there’s those roleplayers, but I don’t totally get what they’re going through that’s so hard. My imagination usually handles that kind of stuff, not my power names and descriptions.

Edited June 21, 2021 by arcane

[Hew]

How about we put back the changes that were made last year, and instead of screaming at the top of their lungs DONT WANT, we try and do constructive examination of the changes, and accept _double stacked rage is not an option_, and move on from there.

 

People say weak attacks elsewhere in the set? Lets adjust. People say it doesn't feel smashy enough? Move from there as well.

 

The arguments in this thread are just beating a bunch of dead horses where nobody is willing to give an inch. Time to move on, be constructive, and look into what could have been done with last years build, rather than beat the other horse that "its not double stacked rage".

 

A lot of work was done by PH. There was testing done. The response by a very narrow scope of people presenting the greatest vitriol was, unfortunately, the death of that. Maybe a second go with what was done, with a bit more civility, might net us a SS 2.0 that people dig, much like EnM.

 

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Hew said:

The response by a very narrow scope of people presenting the greatest vitriol was, unfortunately, the death of that.

 

We really don't know what, exactly, made Powerhouse pull the plug on those changes. I know there were a lot of people upset that they couldn't just leave Rage on auto any more because it would stop them from bypassing the crash. It seemed backwards to me that they apparently didn't mind the periodic 10 seconds of no damage, but having to spend less than 10 seconds manually clicking Rage less often than they'd get the crash was a dealbreaker for them. Still, it's not like their point (or their feelings) were invalid.

 

It's something I kept in mind when I was coming up with my Rage proposal I linked earlier in this thread; rather than alter the mechanics of the crash, I put tools in the set to mitigate it.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Vanden

[Hew]

12 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

We really don't know what, exactly, made Powerhouse pull the plug on those changes. I know there were a lot of people upset that they couldn't just leave Rage on auto any more because it would stop them from bypassing the crash. It seemed backwards to me that they apparently didn't mind the periodic 10 seconds of no damage, but having to spend less than 10 seconds manually clicking Rage less often than they'd get the crash was a dealbreaker for them. Still, it's not like their point (or their feelings) were invalid.

 

It's something I kept in mind when I was coming up with my Rage proposal I linked earlier in this thread; rather than alter the mechanics of the crash, I put tools in the set to mitigate it.

That is the kind of feedback that got overwhelmed in the original post. For me, I was sufficiently happy with the always-on, lesser benefit over the click-version, but that was frowned upon as well.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I still don’t understand “where’s the crime?” when an acknowledgment like this is made.
 

Guess there’s those lower levels, but then how many sets are late bloomers? Feels like plenty of em. 
 

Then there’s those roleplayers, but I don’t totally get what they’re going through that’s so hard. My imagination usually handles that kind of stuff, not my power names and descriptions.

look at the greater context.  The answer is yes it is fine for any set to be a decent performer.  What's more is that is not the only measurement.  Look at the set and how achieves its performance.  Super Strength does that with mostly poor performing powers and then adds the biggest buff of any melee set.  In fact, that buff was "too" powerful so they burdened one power in the set with a stupid temporary crash/debuff that is the antithesis of the theme of the set.  

 

So mostly what people are arguing for is to make the set good at all levels.  Like from 1-28 before you get the OP buff to compensate for the lackluster set (Except KoB and later Foot Stomp).  They want the set to function well in the current game.  They want the most popular and iconic set of this genre to be more playable to a wider number of players and characters.  Some want the set to make sense in theme and name.  Some want to broken exploitable power of "Rage" to not be exploitable.  Some don't want the "must have" dmg buff in the set to debuff them, and not just a little but a lot.  Especially leveling up that -def debuff takes them into the minus.  

 

So why keep the power the way it is?

[FUBARczar]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

There was always a Rage crash

There was a cost of endurance yes that came at the end, but that is not a crash as it you are now sooooooo weak that you can't do damage until you count to twn and are soo weak that your defense debuffs more than many most characters even have to begin with (especially while lvling up, or have a resist set, etc.).  

 

So the is a large difference between having a cost of endurance at the end compared to the current debuff.  Is there not?

 

And why should it stay as it is?  Just because it's the way it is and we shouldn't change things?  Does the set perform well at all levels?  And so on...

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

They want the most popular and iconic set of this genre to be more playable to a wider number of players and characters.

 

[...]

 

So why keep the power the way it is?

 

Because the way it is has already made the set one of the most popular in the game.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Because the way it is has already made the set one of the most popular in the game.

the way it is, is not what makes it the most popular, it's the novelty.  But delude yourself all want. 

[Hew]

16 minutes ago, Vanden said:

28 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

They want the most popular and iconic set of this genre to be more playable to a wider number of players and characters.

 

[...]

 

So why keep the power the way it is?

 

Because the way it is has already made the set one of the most popular in the game.

 

And people "hated" the TW revamp, but eventually came to accept it as a net positive, especially for people not on the bleeding edge of millions of inf on set io builds.

edit: They also didnt really like the EnM remake either... but thats awesome upgrade in my opinion, and some others as well.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Hew

[Haijinx]

35 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

There was a cost of endurance yes that came at the end, but that is not a crash as it you are now sooooooo weak that you can't do damage until you count to twn and are soo weak that your defense debuffs more than many most characters even have to begin with (especially while lvling up, or have a resist set, etc.).  

 

So the is a large difference between having a cost of endurance at the end compared to the current debuff.  Is there not?

 

And why should it stay as it is?  Just because it's the way it is and we shouldn't change things?  Does the set perform well at all levels?  And so on...

The damage reduction existed on live.

 

My WP/SS tanker I started the day WP came out had the 10 seconds of no damage during the crash.  

 

That was maybe 2 weeks after that update was released.  

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Hew said:

 

And people "hated" the TW revamp, but eventually came to accept it as a net positive, especially for people not on the bleeding edge of millions of inf on set io builds.

edit: They also didnt really like the EnM remake either... but thats awesome upgrade in my opinion, and some others as well.

lol who ever didn't like the new Energy Melee needs to have their heads examined and their opinions should be disregarded for ever more.  😜  IMO the did a good job on that.  They replaced a trash power in Stun (*cough Hand Crap) and replaced it with a really good one.  They threaded the needle on getting the set back into fighting shape.  If only that could be done with other power sets too...

 

I don't hate the revamp of TW, and I have to admit that it was OP.  We ran 4 TW/Bio on a 4man +4/8 MoITF with no Inspirations in 14 mins.  lol  Way faster than any other four scrappers, or blasters, or Brutes or Corruptors.  We also did a 2man of the same in 24 mins.  Haha  In a way I am glad TW was reined in because now I can enjoy other sets, like the new Energy Melee!!!  

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

The damage reduction existed on live.

 

My WP/SS tanker I started the day WP came out had the 10 seconds of no damage during the crash.  

 

That was maybe 2 weeks after that update was released.  

Yes we all know the crash existed on live.  And WP came out with Issue 11 so many things had changed since the game's release by then.  

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

Yes we all know the crash existed on live.  And WP came out with Issue 11 so many things had changed since the game's release by then.  

I mentioned that since I know firsthand the crash was essentially like now way back then.  I think the actual crash at that stage predates that though.