Regen 3.0?

[Koopak]

1 hour ago, JJDrakken said:

Literally port over Sentinel's Regen Set to Melees. I feel that would solve a helluva a lot of issues for Currently abused Regen Melee set.

Please dear gods in the dev studio let this never happen. I don't think I will ever articulate how much i hate that idea, i would be fine with literally nearly anything else but not this.

[JJDrakken]

1 minute ago, Koopak said:

Please dear gods in the dev studio let this never happen. I don't think I will ever articulate how much i hate that idea, i would be fine with literally nearly anything else but not this.

 

So you don't want Instant Regeneration as a Toggle or Dismiss Pain as a Passive, thus constant increase of HP?

[Koopak]

23 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

 

So you don't want Instant Regeneration as a Toggle or Dismiss Pain as a Passive, thus constant increase of HP?

Absolutely not for several reasons. Ill assume they are scaled up for melees for these.

Firstly, Dismiss Pain due to being a passive is MASSIVELY weaker, and if we were to take the values of Dull Pain and just make it a passive we don't gain anything, we actually LOSE a healing tool. As it is, it is very easy to perma Dull Pain, to the point you do not need hasten and can be accomplished with minimal slotting. Additionally its +hp is so significant that most builds i do for anything other than Brute hit the HP cap with no +healing slotted in Dull Pain, even though I'm not intentionally building for +hp sets.

Secondly, Instant Regeneration cannot be scaled to Instant Healing, it has to be weaker both due to it being a toggle and because due to it being absorb it boosts the build's Effective HP when Instant Healing does not. This GREATLY complicates balancing the power on top of the much more minor fact that i don't like Absorb as a solution for Regen aesthetically, but that's a minor quibble. As it is Instant Regeneration would be much weaker and gives up the ability to be much stronger for a period of time allowing you to make meaningful choices in a fight. Additionally as it is absorb it is not effected by max hp buffs which means you get less out of Dismiss Pain and Instant Regeneration together, there is no synergy while Dull Pain and Instant Healing have direct synergy.

Thirdly, The only way to hit HP cap which effects the regeneration of all other powers as previously stated is to use Second Wind, which while a valiant attempt to make Revive more appealing, suffers from being a bit of a false choice between being more durable by permaing it, or being available to get back up. If this was more of an active decision than it is it would be more appealing.

**EDIT**

Additionally i forgot to include that the only problem the set has that is solved by the Sentinal version is taking Alpha strikes, a problem easily compensated for by proactive use of other defensive cooldowns. Sentinal version just takes it without having to think or prepare. The Alpha issue is by far the smallest of Regen's problems, such as they are.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Koopak

[BrandX]

21 hours ago, Murcielago said:

Because revive powers go against what scrappers need. If your secondary has a revive, it means its a crappy secondary. Ironic because I have a /dark brute and a /regen stalker. 

 

But it fits the theme/concept, when people say "I want this set for the theme/concept"  So, one can go WP if the idea is abilities needing to be passive.  Or abilities need to be less clickie.  The click aspect is just a meta fact, it isn't a character having to stop and go "Let me think on this for a second to heal"

 

One doesn't do that for the toggles do they?  "Hold on, need to think for a second to keep my toughness up" 😛

[JJDrakken]

6 hours ago, Koopak said:

Please dear gods in the dev studio let this never happen. I don't think I will ever articulate how much i hate that idea, i would be fine with literally nearly anything else but not this.

 

Sentinel Base Regen after Recipes: 658.67%  Scrappers: 627.33

 

Now Scrapper doesn't have Instant Healing on or has turned on Dull Pain.  So when you turn those on: 1622.31. Which is for a limited time.  Overall they could port it and spice up the regen a little bit in Instant Healing and Intergration some. You don't have to deal with Dull Pain clicking/management. 

 

I still feel Sentinel's regen ported over to Melee's would be far better option.

[Koopak]

53 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

 

Sentinel Base Regen after Recipes: 658.67%  Scrappers: 627.33

 

Now Scrapper doesn't have Instant Healing on or has turned on Dull Pain.  So when you turn those on: 1622.31. Which is for a limited time.  Overall they could port it and spice up the regen a little bit in Instant Healing and Intergration some. You don't have to deal with Dull Pain clicking/management. 

 

I still feel Sentinel's regen ported over to Melee's would be far better option.

 

First, I dont trust those numbers, no offense.

 

Second doing flat number comparisons is a bad idea since as different ATs the values wouldnt match when ported.

 

Thirdly 31% regen is barely more than a numinas, I won't lose any sleep and you wont be appreciably more durable. And again this doesnt address ANY of regens issues except the minor Alpha one.

 

Lastly, Instant Healing's duration ensures its pretty rare that itll be down when you need it. More often deaths are caused by not using it when its available than because it wasnt. I was there when IH was a toggle and I actually prefer the click now because ita an active choice on when I need it. Which is not even most fights on +4x8

 

And again instant regen is an absorb not effected by current max hp and Dismiss Pain cannot reach the sentinal, much less a scrappers hp cap. Infact sentinal regen still is expected to maintain Dull Pain, its just called Last Wind.

 

Now yer welcome to continue to disagree, opinions are opinions, bit i really do hate this suggestion because it does not solve the problems I see with the set while undermining the things I like about it.

 

P.S. If ya need numbers ill abliage after iv had time, IRL is a pain lately.

[JJDrakken]

Those numbers are from Mids, so your saying they are lying? 😛

[Koopak]

18 minutes ago, JJDrakken said:

Those numbers are from Mids, so your saying they are lying? 😛

 

Course not, I'm saying i don't trust their applicability without looking at a built atm, particularly as they are inherently not 1 to 1 as regen is based on reducing the time it takes to go from 1hp to full, which means your hp/s is vastly different between the two ATs. That said none of my points are affected by it one way or the other.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Koopak

[Brutal Justice]

Just give me current regen on a tank and I’ll be happy

[hejtmane]

Let's just go back to i2-i3 days of broken make IH a toggle again 😜

Edited July 17, 2021 by hejtmane

[Koopak]

As an aside, the more i experiment with Second Wind in particular the more i hate it. The requirement to be low health to get a real benefit from it means you have to be super risky with it to get optimal use, which while i in theory should love, the pay off just isn't worth it. At best it works as your priority heal that you use instead of reconstruction when its available to get a little durability boost. The actual raw +HP given isn't worth the risk because its not enough to vastly boost you hp total even when nearly dead, and the additional hp/s gained from the +hp is similarly unimpressive.

This is made MUCH worse by the fact that Instant Regeneration has no max hp scaling the way Instant Healing does. Seriously i actually think Sentinals got boned with their regen and i don't understand why its always pointed to as a positive. The only thing its got going for it is you can, with optimal slotting get something like 2500 absorb+hp with a perfect Second Wind, which would translate to something like 3k on a Scrapper ideally. But realistically closed to ~2200 for sent and like ~2600 scrapper. At best this lessons the "regen cant take alpha strikes" issue which iv yapped on plenty about how thats really a tiny issue compared to the rest of the problems the set has as its solved by poping a fast cooldown.

[StrikerFox]

What if IH is a toggle and it's recharge cut in half to an enhanceable, recharge time of 325s? 

Players wanting it as a toggle (Togglers) can use it as a toggle. Die and would need to wait 60ish secs - 325 secs (Depending on the build) to recharge and reactivate.

Players not wanting it as a toggle (Clickers) can use it, click it off at anytime, and then wait for IH to recharge for the next activation.

Reason for the recharge time change is because toggle powers recharge begins after the toggle is shut off. While click powers like Hasten and Dull Pain's recharge timers begin at the moment of activation. Changing IH to a toggle would greatly increase IH's downtime if it's recharge remains at 650s.

It would be an upgrade for the togglers and clickers. Togglers for obvious reasons. Clickers, it's seldom we need IH for the full 90s duration. Having control to deactivate IH to have it come up sooner for another fight, is an upgrade imo.

End cost would be an enhanceable 0.12 e/s. It seems really low but it's IH's current base end cost divided by it's duration of 90s. 

In the end, the changes I would like to see for Regen are:

1. Instant Heal toggle 
2. More regen debuff resistance
3. Endurance debuff resistance
4. Scaling +regen buff. Increases as HP drops

[TheHit]

how does anyone get on to play ,,the utube dude is like talking broken english

 

[TombTyrant]

There's a pretty solid walkthrough up forum my dude. Click the section that says Getting Started.

[Koopak]

17 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

What if IH is a toggle and it's recharge cut in half to an enhanceable, recharge time of 325s? 

Players wanting it as a toggle (Togglers) can use it as a toggle. Die and would need to wait 60ish secs - 325 secs (Depending on the build) to recharge and reactivate.

Players not wanting it as a toggle (Clickers) can use it, click it off at anytime, and then wait for IH to recharge for the next activation.

Reason for the recharge time change is because toggle powers recharge begins after the toggle is shut off. While click powers like Hasten and Dull Pain's recharge timers begin at the moment of activation. Changing IH to a toggle would greatly increase IH's downtime if it's recharge remains at 650s.

It would be an upgrade for the togglers and clickers. Togglers for obvious reasons. Clickers, it's seldom we need IH for the full 90s duration. Having control to deactivate IH to have it come up sooner for another fight, is an upgrade imo.

End cost would be an enhanceable 0.12 e/s. It seems really low but it's IH's current base end cost divided by it's duration of 90s. 

In the end, the changes I would like to see for Regen are:

1. Instant Heal toggle 
2. More regen debuff resistance
3. Endurance debuff resistance
4. Scaling +regen buff. Increases as HP drops

 

It took till the end of the post to piece together what the hell you meant. You are suggesting IH work like a hybrid incarnate where you toggle it on and it auto detoggles at the end of its duration.

 

I have no problems with that in concept but it wont make togglers happy, togglers want IH toto be a toggle either because it was stupid strong when it was, or because they want it to be set and forget. A timed shutdown is different from a click power solely in that its end cost is ongoing and it can be ended earlier, nome of which are things anyone cares much for it seems?

 

But im with ya for some of the end notes more debuff resist please

[Arcadio]

23 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

What if IH is a toggle and it's recharge cut in half to an enhanceable, recharge time of 325s? 

Players wanting it as a toggle (Togglers) can use it as a toggle. Die and would need to wait 60ish secs - 325 secs (Depending on the build) to recharge and reactivate.

Players not wanting it as a toggle (Clickers) can use it, click it off at anytime, and then wait for IH to recharge for the next activation.

Reason for the recharge time change is because toggle powers recharge begins after the toggle is shut off. While click powers like Hasten and Dull Pain's recharge timers begin at the moment of activation. Changing IH to a toggle would greatly increase IH's downtime if it's recharge remains at 650s.

It would be an upgrade for the togglers and clickers. Togglers for obvious reasons. Clickers, it's seldom we need IH for the full 90s duration. Having control to deactivate IH to have it come up sooner for another fight, is an upgrade imo.

End cost would be an enhanceable 0.12 e/s. It seems really low but it's IH's current base end cost divided by it's duration of 90s. 

In the end, the changes I would like to see for Regen are:

1. Instant Heal toggle 
2. More regen debuff resistance
3. Endurance debuff resistance
4. Scaling +regen buff. Increases as HP drops

I like the idea of a toggle with a timer, but I'd prefer it were more like PB's quantum flight. IH could shut off a large portion of the regen after a given period of time but stay running with some +regen. And/or increase end cost after a period of time, and stay that way until it's toggled off with a moderate recharge.

[BrandX]

I see no point in a toggle on a timer, if it's a click power.  The same thing is being done, except instead of a big end cost all at once, it'll be a smaller end cost over a period of time.

[StrikerFox]

Sorry, English isn't my first language and having trouble explaining what I mean. Trying again...

 

Make IH a toggle with a 325 second, enhanceable recharge.

 

A click power's recharge begins as soon as the power is activated... My current Regen build has IH recharging at 180 seconds. That's a 50/50 uptime/downtime. In a 180 second duration, I can only use IH once.

 

A toggle's recharge begins after the power is detoggled... If IH was a toggle with a 325 second base recharge, my current build's IH would recharge in 90 seconds (Instead of 180s). I could toggle IH for 30 seconds (Say enough time to defeat elite bosses giving me problems), detoggle, 90 seconds to recharge, and reactivate again (After bumping into more elite bosses). I could technically activate IH twice well within 180 seconds.

 

What I'm trying to say is with that IH change, it can be used as a toggle for players that want to. Players that choose to use IH as a click (Toggling/detoggling), it would have more flexibility than it's current iteration.

 

Maybe someone will know what I mean and can explain it better. I'm going back to ESL.

[Koopak]

22 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

Sorry, English isn't my first language and having trouble explaining what I mean. Trying again...

 

Make IH a toggle with a 325 second, enhanceable recharge.

 

A click power's recharge begins as soon as the power is activated... My current Regen build has IH recharging at 180 seconds. That's a 50/50 uptime/downtime. In a 180 second duration, I can only use IH once.

 

A toggle's recharge begins after the power is detoggled... If IH was a toggle with a 325 second base recharge, my current build's IH would recharge in 90 seconds (Instead of 180s). I could toggle IH for 30 seconds (Say enough time to defeat elite bosses giving me problems), detoggle, 90 seconds to recharge, and reactivate again (After bumping into more elite bosses). I could technically activate IH twice well within 180 seconds.

 

What I'm trying to say is with that IH change, it can be used as a toggle for players that want to. Players that choose to use IH as a click (Toggling/detoggling), it would have more flexibility than it's current iteration.

 

Maybe someone will know what I mean and can explain it better. I'm going back to ESL.

I'm pretty sure we understand, and I get what yer going for but the problem is it doesnt actually solve the issue.

So if the power doesnt turn off on its own like Hybrid Slot Incarnates, its a toggle, theres no choice, this is only using it as a toggle. Unless the end cost is made absurd which would be a whole other discussion, people would just build to keep it on all the time.

If it DOES turn off on its own like Hybrid Slot Incarnates, its got some value in your suggestion that it can be detoggled early to recharge sooner, but that wont make people who want Instant Healing to be a toggle happy, itll just make it a marginally more flexible power.

People want Instant Healing to be a toggle because they don't want to manage the power. If they have to keep reactivating the power then they still have the same complaint.

Now Arcadio proposed a cycling rate like many phasing powers where youd toggle it and get say 90 seconds of Instant Healing and then 90 seconds of little to nothing and itd just cycle between the two with no player input. That has merit if combined with the recharge changes you are suggesting but its still a really janky solution.