Is Force Mastery considered sub-par on Blasters?

[arcane]

44 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I’m no powergamer min/max, I just have seen first hand that res does NOT work great for anything but tanks/brutes, HEATS/Veats( well, chasing high res that is). 

I’ve established that APP/PPP res shields work more or less as well as def shields after my first 88 level 50’s on HC, so let’s remember to tag our opinions as opinions 😉

[Seed22]

When you start tagging your opinions as such I will 😏 or…say it with me, you can just….admit you were uhh…wrong. Also I dont care how many 50s you have on HC. I had 25 preshutdown and 37 now. Not impressed even slightly, try again.

 

Love when people post there lil 50s. Its too fun for me. Also I bet at that pount most of your 50s use SOs or training IOs. All mine have capped def for the most part, so I actually know what I’m talking about when it comes to def but good show!

Edited August 31, 2021 by Seed22

[DreadShinobi]

14 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Do not listen to a single word of that last paragraph. This right here will get you a subpar blaster in 5 sec flat. Mace and Ice are objectively the best, everything else except Mu, which is objectively the best res PPP, is subjective. 
 

I cannot stress this enough DO NOT go force over Mace EVER. Do. NOT.

lol. no. Apparently you didn't actually read my post either. I advocate using Mu mastery. Mace and Ice are not objectively best, fiery will also put your survivability up higher than having a defense shield. 

 

Did you know Ice and Mace mastery APP shields give about 16% S/L def or 16% S/L def and 10-11% energy def in the case of Mace?  Do you know how close that is to the value of a single small purple inspiration? Do you know how many more orange insps it takes to replace the resistance granted by charged armor compared to replacing the defense granted by Ice/Mace?

 

If you're never going to team and never use inspirations, sure Ice and Mace are fine. A blaster has one of the highest potential insp flow of any archetype vis a vis their kill speed. If you frequently team youre more likely to have at minimum one or more stacks of manuevers bolstering your defense as well. 

 

I agree, Force Mastery is pretty bad. I wouldn't take Force Mastery over Mace Mastery, but I wouldn't be taking or even be lightly considering taking Mace Mastery either.

[Miss Magical]

16 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Do not listen to a single word of that last paragraph. This right here will get you a subpar blaster in 5 sec flat. Mace and Ice are objectively the best, everything else except Mu, which is objectively the best res PPP, is subjective. 
 

I cannot stress this enough DO NOT go force over Mace EVER. Do. NOT.

 

If it was anyone but @DreadShinobi posting that, then I would be inclined to agree with you. But they often post things that, while sometimes counterintuitive at first glance, turn out to be very well-reasoned if you think carefully. In this case I can see their point: skilled high-level blaster play involves proactive use of inspirations to both softcap and maintain high resistance. One needs to consider the slot-efficiency of inspirations as well. Since defense inspirations give much more mitigation per insp than do resist ones, a build with resists from the APP, moderate +def from IO's and the rest of the way to softcap from 1-2 small purples, is tougher than one that gets all the way to softcap from APP and IO's and gets only resists from inspirations. And just going for softcap with no resists is the weakest option of all, especially if your softcap is mace's S/L/E or ice's S/L only which is very vulnerable. Maybe a less-skilled player who cannot manage inspirations effectively or someone going for a no-insp challenge can still find Mace or Ice the best choice for them personally?

 

I agree with you on one thing though: the number of 50's one has is eminently unimpressive. The same goes for what enhancements one uses, or how long one has been playing. After all, one can just farm and AFK to thousands of levels and billions of inf, and I've seen some seriously kooky advice from supposed vets of the game. Show me someone who produces elegant and capable builds, who regularly runs Carnival of Chaos, 801.x and other high-difficulty AE missions with success, or who holds good TF speedrun times - now those would impress me.

[skoryy]

4 hours ago, Miss Magical said:

Show me someone who produces elegant and capable builds, who regularly runs Carnival of Chaos, 801.x and other high-difficulty AE missions with success, or who holds good TF speedrun times - now those would impress me.

 

I'd rather just build for def, plow through regular missions and tips, and be more impressed by costumes and bios, but that's just me.

[skoryy]

7 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

lol. no. Apparently you didn't actually read my post either. I advocate using Mu mastery. Mace and Ice are not objectively best, fiery will also put your survivability up higher than having a defense shield. 

 

Did you know Ice and Mace mastery APP shields give about 16% S/L def or 16% S/L def and 10-11% energy def in the case of Mace?  Do you know how close that is to the value of a single small purple inspiration? Do you know how many more orange insps it takes to replace the resistance granted by charged armor compared to replacing the defense granted by Ice/Mace?

 

If you're never going to team and never use inspirations, sure Ice and Mace are fine. A blaster has one of the highest potential insp flow of any archetype vis a vis their kill speed. If you frequently team youre more likely to have at minimum one or more stacks of manuevers bolstering your defense as well. 

 

I agree, Force Mastery is pretty bad. I wouldn't take Force Mastery over Mace Mastery, but I wouldn't be taking or even be lightly considering taking Mace Mastery either.

 

Ah, OK, I see now.  Honestly, if this works for you, that's great.  However, this also requires a lot of macros and additional keystrokes to get your inspirations right, which may not be for everyone - especially newer players.  And such effort is pretty much not necessary for the standard content in the game.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Seed22 said:

When you start tagging your opinions as such I will 😏 or…say it with me, you can just….admit you were uhh…wrong.

It’s impossible that I’m wrong in this case because res shields do work. If they didn’t, dozens of my toons wouldn’t function, and that clearly isn’t the case.

 

I guess that makes you wrong 😄
 

And yes, number of 50’s is irrelevant. But considering you’re claiming something doesn’t work that I’ve made work countless times, it seemed like pertinent data at the time.

Edited September 1, 2021 by arcane

[A Cat]

I switched from ice to mu since I found I hardly bothered to use snowstorm, and I got to ranged softcap anyway from 1 billion artilleries and thunderstrikes. Electric fences is legit good as an attack. Slotting the armor gives me some defense anyway from bonuses. 

[arcane]

6 hours ago, Miss Magical said:

 

Show me someone who produces elegant and capable builds, who regularly runs Carnival of Chaos, 801.x and other high-difficulty AE missions with success, or who holds good TF speedrun times - now those would impress me.

I think we can immediately rule out that coming from someone who doesn’t think this game’s hardest content can be done without Frozen Armor or Scorpion Shield.

[Carnifax]

26 minutes ago, A Cat said:

I switched from ice to mu since I found I hardly bothered to use snowstorm, and I got to ranged softcap anyway from 1 billion artilleries and thunderstrikes. Electric fences is legit good as an attack. Slotting the armor gives me some defense anyway from bonuses. 

This is a really good point (and one I used for my Grav/TA respec). If Ranged is capped and covering most incoming attacks anyway then the Def from Scorp or Ice armour isn't really needed and the Resist shields can be an excellent next line of defense. 

[Uun]

BTW, the resistance armor in Electrical Mastery (Charged Armor) is identical to the one in Mu Mastery (although it's tier 2 in Electrical). 

[DreadShinobi]

5 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Ah, OK, I see now.  Honestly, if this works for you, that's great.  However, this also requires a lot of macros and additional keystrokes to get your inspirations right, which may not be for everyone - especially newer players.  And such effort is pretty much not necessary for the standard content in the game.

Ive never once considered insp usage to be a higher level of gameplay. Inspirations are introduced in the tutorial. They are a basic component of coh gameplay. They are a main factor in why IOs are absolutely unnecessary to play the game and why cross AT balance finds parity (and ironically also discrepency). You are given 20 insp slots to utilize and i do consider them a part of a "build."

 

For blasters, insps are high impact tools. Red insps are typically more beneficial than many other ATs find due to high base damage. Defensive insps go a very long way due to lack of inherent defensive values in toggles. Break free insps are a different story all together, being part of archetypical discrepency in insp function rather than parity. 

 

At lvl 50 i go to the p2w vendor on every character and turn off the insps that I don't need. Typically yellow, blue, and revive insps across the board, and break free insps on melee archetypes. I don't use insp combine macros. I press the basic f1-f5 keys that are the default keybindings. I will occasionally rearrange my insp tray, but otherwise just munch as needed.

 

When you have 20% def-all via IOs on a blaster you only need 2 purples to softcap. Killspeed often replenishes this faster than that will deplete.

 

Blasters also have a very specific insp friendly nuke button that lets you disable and clear a spawn with zero insps and drops you insps which extends their naturally high insp flow.

[arcane]

Why would anyone need binds or macros to use insps. Try your left mouse button FFS 🙂 (and right mouse button -> C -> 1-8 to combine). As DreadShinobi said: as fundamental to gameplay as enhancements, introduced in the tutorial.

Edited September 1, 2021 by arcane

[Seed22]

15 hours ago, Miss Magical said:

 

If it was anyone but @DreadShinobi posting that, then I would be inclined to agree with you. But they often post things that, while sometimes counterintuitive at first glance, turn out to be very well-reasoned if you think carefully. In this case I can see their point: skilled high-level blaster play involves proactive use of inspirations to both softcap and maintain high resistance. One needs to consider the slot-efficiency of inspirations as well. Since defense inspirations give much more mitigation per insp than do resist ones, a build with resists from the APP, moderate +def from IO's and the rest of the way to softcap from 1-2 small purples, is tougher than one that gets all the way to softcap from APP and IO's and gets only resists from inspirations. And just going for softcap with no resists is the weakest option of all, especially if your softcap is mace's S/L/E or ice's S/L only which is very vulnerable. Maybe a less-skilled player who cannot manage inspirations effectively or someone going for a no-insp challenge can still find Mace or Ice the best choice for them personally?

 

I agree with you on one thing though: the number of 50's one has is eminently unimpressive. The same goes for what enhancements one uses, or how long one has been playing. After all, one can just farm and AFK to thousands of levels and billions of inf, and I've seen some seriously kooky advice from supposed vets of the game. Show me someone who produces elegant and capable builds, who regularly runs Carnival of Chaos, 801.x and other high-difficulty AE missions with success, or who holds good TF speedrun times - now those would impress me.

Fair point. And as a highlight back from my earlier post. Again, chasing capped res on AN AT WITH 75% RES CAPS is a bad idea. Not that NO res is the answer( Dread and Arcane, reading helps 😌. Try it.).  It’s my fault for going without saying that in a solo setting, scorp shield or ice will be better objectively. Without melee core, for benefits. 
 

Also? Solo’ing the hardest content and trying to laude elitism on a forum is uh..,eh screw the formality go outside.  (Not directed as you Miss 😀)

Edited September 1, 2021 by Seed22

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Fair point. And as a highlight back from my earlier post. Again, chasing capped res on AN AT WITH 75% RES CAPS is a bad idea. Not that NO res is the answer( Dread and Arcane, reading helps 😌. Try it.).  It’s my fault for going without saying that in a solo setting, scorp shield or ice will be better objectively. Without melee core, for benefits. 
 

Also? Solo’ing the hardest content and trying to laude elitism on a forum is uh..,eh screw the formality go outside.  (Not directed as you Miss 😀)

Your original claim was that no APP/PPP but Ice or Mace “works”. You have yet to support this position that anyone with a different epic pool is on a non-working toon.

 

If you would like to support your claim, do so. I’m not interested in reading any more of your belittling commentary if you refuse to engage in the debate you started with your own bizarre comment.

[skoryy]

6 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Ive never once considered insp usage to be a higher level of gameplay. Inspirations are introduced in the tutorial. They are a basic component of coh gameplay. They are a main factor in why IOs are absolutely unnecessary to play the game and why cross AT balance finds parity (and ironically also discrepency). You are given 20 insp slots to utilize and i do consider them a part of a "build."

 

For blasters, insps are high impact tools. Red insps are typically more beneficial than many other ATs find due to high base damage. Defensive insps go a very long way due to lack of inherent defensive values in toggles. Break free insps are a different story all together, being part of archetypical discrepency in insp function rather than parity. 

 

At lvl 50 i go to the p2w vendor on every character and turn off the insps that I don't need. Typically yellow, blue, and revive insps across the board, and break free insps on melee archetypes. I don't use insp combine macros. I press the basic f1-f5 keys that are the default keybindings. I will occasionally rearrange my insp tray, but otherwise just munch as needed.

 

When you have 20% def-all via IOs on a blaster you only need 2 purples to softcap. Killspeed often replenishes this faster than that will deplete.

 

Blasters also have a very specific insp friendly nuke button that lets you disable and clear a spawn with zero insps and drops you insps which extends their naturally high insp flow.

 

Going to P2W to disable certain insps and knowing which insps you won't need are still things that new and casual players aren't going to know.   This is still pretty much advanced mode gameplay.

 

[DreadShinobi]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

Going to P2W to disable certain insps and knowing which insps you won't need are still things that new and casual players aren't going to know.   This is still pretty much advanced mode gameplay.

 

Naw. It just means there is less clutter. You don't get more purples and red insps by disabling yellows and blue insps. You don't receive any gameplay advantage other than "i have to click f1 -f5 less to delete insps that are of no value to me anyways." It is purely a QoL change. Technically you are disadvantaged by having less insps that you can combine into ones that are useful to you, i just don't care to do so because i am lazy in that way.

[DreadShinobi]

12 hours ago, Uun said:

BTW, the resistance armor in Electrical Mastery (Charged Armor) is identical to the one in Mu Mastery (although it's tier 2 in Electrical). 

Mu Mastery is chosen over Electrical Mastery for the Electrifying Fences, which is one of the best ancillary attacks that blasters have access to (Char and Knockout Blow are the only other good attacks when weighted against all the primary/secondary power options).

 

Electrical Mastery honestly needs some love (as do many aspects of blaster ancillaries). EM Pulse on a blaster could really be a great tool to have but the base values just don't support the power pick. It has -1000% regen, but it only lasts 15 seconds, packs a 3 second cast time, recharges in 800 seconds at base (160 seconds at the recharge cap!), and is a disorient and not a hold which affects IO slotting heavily. EM Pulse is already heavily skipped for Rad Emission supports that have it on a 300 second cooldown. 

[Uun]

8 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Mu Mastery is chosen over Electrical Mastery for the Electrifying Fences, which is one of the best ancillary attacks that blasters have access to (Char and Knockout Blow are the only other good attacks when weighted against all the primary/secondary power options).

 

I like Static Discharge, which has a 12 second recharge on the Electrical Mastery version (vs. 32 seconds on Mu Mastery version with virtually the same damage). Works well on a Dark blaster that already has 2 cones. I've also gotten some good mileage from Surge of Power as an "oh crap" power - the blaster version has no health crash, just an endurance crash.

[kelika2]

I default to flame mastery on all blasters.  with power recoloring you can imaginate whatever.

Since most blasters are perma hasten build I use RotF as another attack.  Make sure to slot OF: KB to KD into it to turn it into a gigantic burn patch

And with Tough and IO bonuses you can easily come near or get to the 75% s/l cap leaving temp invul overkill.

 

Sometimes I wish I had PFF, but then again Purples are not hard to come by.

stocking up in your @mail, or vendor buying before a TF, etc

But seriously I use my farmer to generate most of my purples to mail to myself since im going to be burning 10 bars of patrol off an alt at some point.