Nerf Level Shifts

[Marbing]

7 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Yeah but if you opt in to having a challenge its the same thing as a self imposed challenge.

That new content has to be a single option Super Ultra Omega Nightmare Hell DefCon 0.5 only for this thread to make sense

No, it isn't. Because one is the same content, the other is new content. 🙂 

[Cobalt Arachne]

22 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Yeah but if you opt in to having a challenge its the same thing as a self imposed challenge.

It's a little different than the difficulty options we have currently... We're re-writing the entire challenge settings code to accommodate our future plans.

For instance, things like 'Master of the Imperious Task Force' will be a singular toggle you just turn on from the challenge mode settings interface, and sets the 'no defeat' and 'no temporary powers' criteria automatically.



There's also the new 'Hard Mode' difficulty toggle which is likewise selected from the Challenge Settings interface and greatly changes the content itself; Enemies will do different things, have different powers, require different tactics to succeed, etc.
At the outset of Page 3, only the new Strike Force will have Hard Mode as it is not a blanket system, but something we hand-crafted. We'll be looking into expanding it to other content in the future, and adjusting based on reception and feedback.

There will be three degrees of Hard Mode to choose from, each making things tougher and changing the content further. Of course, they come with more rewards the higher you go, things like earning Astral/Empyrean merits per AV defeat, Incarnate salvage rolls, or some badges that need mechanics you only can access in Hard Mode to earn (though you can select the lowest Hard Mode level for them).

It should be hitting Brainstorm in the near future, I hope everyone will check it out when it does! 🙂

EDIT: Hard Mode is exclusive to level 50+ and is content balanced around players using max Incarnates and IOs. Though the new Strike Force that introduces this feature has a level range of 35-50, you will need to be level 50 to select Hard Mode, and it locks your difficulty settings into +2/+3/+4/x8 respectively.

[ZacKing]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is valid, but is also jumping through hoops if they have to go well out of their way to organize "hey gang, can we not use XYZ thing?"

 

Getting an enhancement unslotter is also a matter of a few clicks, but it puts the burden on the player to take those actions to participate. Likewise, a player joining in on content that they know they are "above" or "below" has different connotations than joining content that you would expect to be balanced to your level and then finding out some members of the team are far and away above what you're trying to do which can be boring for the uber players and likewise the non ubers who get scraps. We should be able to have equal access to feel super, which requires content suited for superness both when looking forwards to new dangerous content as well as backwards to "why is superman helping Robin clear street crime?"

 

 

Sorry to disagree man but there's no hardship to any of this.  You don't need enhancement unslotters to remove incarnate powers or to never even craft and slot them in the first place.  I see people advertising for speed runs as much as I see those looking for inf/xp runs.  it's easy to form groups here with others who have a similar way of playing.  It's not an excuse to nerf everyone and try to corral them into one way of play.  Replies like that are only proving my earlier point these posts are less about improving the game for everyone by adding options and more about forcing everyone else to play the way a few people want.  

 

21 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

New content and special difficulty options are coming that take all those Incarnate powers into account; In the not too distant future you will have the option to face enemies who are more than happy to stomp you into a fine paste even with your Incarnate powers and Level Shift.

But as always, it'll be a choice, but those who endure the peril will get extra rewards for it.

 

This is how it should be done!  Thank you.

 

18 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

This is what I have been asking for and talking about. 

Very different from self imposed restrictions! Thank you for chiming in! 😄 

 

Clicking an option to not allow incarnates or buffed enemies IS a self imposed restriction.  The game isn't coded to do it automatically.  You make that choice man.  

[skoryy]

9 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

It's a little different than the difficulty options we have currently... We're re-writing the entire challenge settings code to accommodate our future plans.

For instance, things like 'Master of the Imperious Task Force' will be a singular toggle you just turn on from the challenge mode settings interface, and sets the 'no defeat' and 'no temporary powers' criteria automatically.



There's also the new 'hard mode' difficulty toggle which is likewise selected from the Challenge Settings interface and greatly changes the content itself; Enemies will do different things, have different powers, require different tactics to succeed, etc.
At the outset of Page 3, only the new Strike Force will have 'hard mode' as it is not a blanket system, but something we hand-crafted. We'll be looking into expanding it to other content in the future, and adjusting based on reception and feedback.

There will be three degrees of 'hard mode' to choose from, each making things tougher and changing the content further. Of course, they come with more rewards the higher you go, things like earning Astral/Empyrean merits per AV defeat, Incarnate salvage rolls, or some badges that need mechanics you only can access in hard mode to earn (though you can select the lowest hard mode level for them).

It should be hitting Brainstorm in the near future, I hope everyone will check it out when it does! 🙂

Hard mode drama will be a thing, but honestly this is how it should be done and I am optimistically curious to try it myself.

[arcane]

36 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

New content and special difficulty options are coming that take all those Incarnate powers into account; In the not too distant future you will have the option to face enemies who are more than happy to stomp you into a fine paste even with your Incarnate powers and Level Shift.

But as always, it'll be a choice, but those who endure the peril will get extra rewards for it.

Perfect 🙂 

[Cobalt Arachne]

29 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Hard mode drama will be a thing, but honestly this is how it should be done and I am optimistically curious to try it myself.

We're hoping to mitigate that by having the content be very flexible and able to be enjoyed the way any player wants.

Ultimately, I'm sorry if any players were expecting the difficulty ceiling (ceiling not floor) to stay the same forever. As we pioneer into new major content updates we are going to be taking Homecoming's balance and power level into consideration.

Homecoming players have very accessible Very Rare IOs, Incarnate Powers, Enhancement Boosters... Our content design approach will be taking that into account as we design new challenges and ensuring that powerful players have sufficiently powerful challenges to test themselves against.

That being said, we aren't taking away the option to do content at the level that's always been available, these are new options not replacements.

Edit: We're very dedicated to ensuring casual players are never left behind, this won't ever be something that removes the ability to play any content.

[kelika2]

26 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

We'll be looking into expanding it to other content in the future, and adjusting based on reception and feedback.

I am slightly attracted to the idea of a level 50+++ Positron/synapes

[Bionic_Flea]

50 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

New content and special difficulty options are coming that take all those Incarnate powers into account; In the not too distant future you will have the option to face enemies who are more than happy to stomp you into a fine paste even with your Incarnate powers and Level Shift.

But as always, it'll be a choice, but those who endure the peril will get extra rewards for it.

Nerf Blue Spiders! 

 

I mean, yay, new stuff!

[Marbing]

38 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Clicking an option to not allow incarnates or buffed enemies IS a self imposed restriction.  The game isn't coded to do it automatically.  You make that choice man.  

C'mon man, that's semantics.

I wasn't referring to clicking options to restrict certain things when I said "self imposed restrictions". I was referring to unslotting your alpha, or choosing to not use IO sets, or choosing to not use any enhancements, and the like to make the game harder (all of these things were mentioned in this thread.) Those are the "self imposed restrictions" I was referring to. It seemed to me there were quite a few people that thought those were the solution, as opposed to adding new content to the game, so I spoke out against THOSE things. 

An option built into the game that you can click to make the game harder by limiting your character in some way for certain content or tasks is fine with me (those things already exist as part of the game). But to say "just unslot your alpha" (for example) as a solution, isn't. That is what I was talking about. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by th0ughtGun

[arcane]

Good to see the devs trying to address the real problem a little.

 

I’m still dumbfounded at how many people genuinely think good game design is telling people to create faux difficulty by completely ignoring key parts of the game rather than creating genuine difficulty, but hey you can’t just teach common sense. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by arcane

[Marbing]

Just now, arcane said:

I’m still dumbfounded at how many people genuinely think good game design is telling people to create faux difficulty by completely ignoring key parts of the game rather than creating genuinely difficulty, but hey you can’t just teach common sense. 

This 1000% 

[kelika2]

Just now, arcane said:

I’m still dumbfounded at how many people genuinely think good game design is telling people to create faux difficulty

To replay it or keep playing it.

[ZacKing]

3 minutes ago, th0ughtGun said:

C'mon man, that's semantics.

I wasn't referring to clicking options to restrict certain things when I said "self imposed restrictions". I was referring to unslotting your alpha, or choosing to not use IO sets, or choosing to not use any enhancements, and the like to make the game harder (all of these things were mentioned in this thread.) Those are the "self imposed restrictions" I was referring to. It seemed to me there were quite a few people that thought those were the solution, as opposed to adding new content to the game, so I spoke out against THOSE things. 

An option built into the game to make the game harder by limiting your character in some way is fine with me. But to say "just unslot your alpha" (for example) as a solution, isn't. That is what I was talking about. 

 

It's an option that's available to you right now.  You can do this very easily.  From the look and sound of it they are going to address these things by doing exactly what they should do - add more content and more options, not nerfing everyone.

 

 

[Marbing]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

 

It's an option that's available to you right now.  You can do this very easily.  From the look and sound of it they are going to address these things by doing exactly what they should do - add more content and more options, not nerfing everyone.

 

 

Which is exactly what I wanted. So I think we are on the same page arguing for the same thing but somehow don't realize it. 🤣

[ZacKing]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m still dumbfounded at how many people genuinely think good game design is telling people to create faux difficulty by completely ignoring key parts of the game rather than creating genuinely difficulty, but hey you can’t just teach common sense. 

 

You're putting words in people's mouths.  it's a suggestion people offered for what can be done now in the interim until harder stuff is developed.

[kelika2]

I hate this emoji system so much because I cant reply to a post and if I reply to an emotion icon I look and feel weird.

City of Heroes even live only had so much to do, and the point of a subscription based system is to keep players coming back however when player enthusiasm outweighs the speed of the content, people tend to do shit themselves such as creating a supergroup of only Radiation Emission users to pass the time.  They like the game but want to do things differently in different ways just for the sake of different.

 

There are probably tons of video game easter egg videos of players going slightly against the devs intentions, for replayability, fun or just exploration

 

[mcdoogss]

Be a pretty drastic indirect Mastermind nerf.  Why can't lvl 54 mobs be buffed instead again, or new challenging endgame content created?

Edited September 30, 2021 by mcdoogss

[kelika2]

Just now, mcdoogss said:

Be a pretty drastic indirect Mastermind nerf.  Why can't lvl 54 mobs be buffed instead again?

mastermind pets get a +2 level bump in incarnate content, hopefully that wont be forgotten about if the new said theoretical soemthing bored typing

[Cobalt Arachne]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

City of Heroes even live only had so much to do, and the point of a subscription based system is to keep players coming back however when player enthusiasm outweighs the speed of the content

This is also extremely relevant, in a non-commercial server environment, the only thing Homecoming players pay with to play the game is their free time they spend on it. To that end, it's crucial we respect people's time investments and expand the variety of ways people can play the game without unnecessarily restricting them with things like time gates, long grinds, or other methods that are pretty uniformly found in commercial MMOs.

If you want to play the brand new Strike Force on a lower level toon on SO's you'll be able to without any problems. But by the same degree, the super vets who've played this game for decades will have a fair and furious fight ahead of them if they are looking for that in the new Hard Mode options.

We want everyone to play the new content, and play it in the way they enjoy.

[mcdoogss]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

mastermind pets get a +2 level bump in incarnate content, hopefully that wont be forgotten about if the new said theoretical soemthing bored typing

 

Right but in non-incarnate content the +1 level shift is pretty important I'd say

[Coyotedancer]

57 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Hard mode drama will be a thing, but honestly this is how it should be done and I am optimistically curious to try it myself.

 

I'll just be curious to see how long it takes for the new settings to go from really being optional to becoming the de facto assumed norm. If there are any kind of increased rewards on offer, you know it's going to happen,

[Cobalt Arachne]

8 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'll just be curious to see how long it takes for the new settings to go from really being optional to becoming the de facto assumed norm. If there are any kind of increased rewards on offer, you know it's going to happen,

Despite it being called Hard Mode (the final name may yet change, but for discussion purposes that's where it's at right now) the focus was on active player engagement, universal role value (tank/damage/support/control), and feeling like you're contributing to the victory of your team no matter what you're playing.

The goal wasn't to be brutal or punishing, but to bring back meaning to roles that currently had little/no value or purpose in the current difficulty endgame such as support and control. Playing a control or support AT will feel very rewarding again in Hard Mode.

It does this organically as well, nothing silly like hard-requirements such as enemies that can only be held, etc... Enemies being held is desirable because they aren't hurting your team when held. We really tried to hone in on the basic core system designs for City of Heroes as a whole with our design approaches.

[Coyotedancer]

12 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Despite it being called Hard Mode (the final name may yet change, but for discussion purposes that's where it's at right now) the focus was on active player engagement, universal role value (tank/damage/support/control), and feeling like you're contributing to the victory of your team no matter what you're playing.

The goal wasn't to be brutal or punishing, but to bring back meaning to roles that currently had little/no value or purpose in the current difficulty endgame such as support and control. Playing a control or support AT will feel very rewarding again in Hard Mode.

It does this organically as well, nothing silly like hard-requirements such as enemies that can only be held, etc... Enemies being held is desirable because they aren't hurting your team when held. We really tried to hone in on the basic core system designs for City of Heroes as a whole with our design approaches.

 

Oh, I have no doubt at all that the intentions are good... I even agree with them, since I prefer to team on my support characters (Who are well-nigh-useless to current end-game teams-). 

 

It's just going to be interesting to see what happens when those new "optional" modes become available to that not-minor segment of the player bases who will always go for the biggest reward per task chosen.  Unless they put a real hit on completion speeds, the odds are good they'll eventually become the default.... Sort-of like +4/x8 when running Council scanners. (Or really anything, for most of the power-player set-)

[Cobalt Arachne]

8 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

It's just going to be interesting to see what happens when those new "optional" modes become available to that not-minor segment of the player bases who will always go for the biggest reward per task chosen.  Unless they put a real hit on completion speeds, the odds are good they'll eventually become the default.... Sort-of like +4/x8 when running Council scanners. (Or really anything, for most of the power-player set-)

Ultimately, we wanted an alternative progression method that had the appeal of being extremely engaging.

At the end of the day, nothing we add will come close to the speed and ease of running Heather Townshend's first Dark Astoria arc over and over and over for Empyrean Merits and Incarnate rolls, so we aimed for Hard Mode's added rewards to appeal to those who find it rewarding to fight for their rewards.

If people want fast and easy (if extremely boring? lol) there are better progression options then any new content we could possibly add.

Playing on Hard Mode is a big change in how you play the content, players who think it's going to just be more of the same that takes a little bit longer may find themselves surprised.

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Oh, I have no doubt at all that the intentions are good... I even agree with them, since I prefer to team on my support characters (Who are well-nigh-useless to current end-game teams-). 

 

It's just going to be interesting to see what happens when those new "optional" modes become available to that not-minor segment of the player bases who will always go for the biggest reward per task chosen.  Unless they put a real hit on completion speeds, the odds are good they'll eventually become the default.... Sort-of like +4/x8 when running Council scanners. (Or really anything, for most of the power-player set-)

 

Beyond that, I'll be curious to see how it works.  If this means that there will be NPCs with auto-hit or stupid high tohit that blows through all defense and damage types that have no resists to (kinda like Hami "damage") then it won't be worth the extra rewards.  I'll wait until it's ready for testing though.  Sounds interesting for sure and a step in the right direction.  Intentions are good.