Low DPS blasters

[Tacheyon]

Sonic is good... on Defenders and Sentinels.

 

Defenders because as stated earlier you get the full -Res (20%) on your attacks, and you could pair it with /Kin, /Storm, /Poison to help amplify the debuffs making you hit harder.

 

On Sentinels it's slightly different.  There you can gain almost permanent Opportunity with all the Cones you have at your disposal so you can add a -25% Res to everything.  And as well Screech is a really good ST power so you can have both a AOE chain and a ST chain when needed.

 

But I have tried it on blasters and it's just...not good IMO.  

[Erratic1]

3 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

proof is kind of in the pudding 

 

Proof of what?

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Proof of what?

     I believe it's showing Sonic Attack at the bottom of whatever comparison is being made.  I also think, as @oedipus_texpoints out, it's ignoring the fact the rest of the team league also benefits from those resistance debuffs.  Immaterial if running solo (and even then it's ignoring the pet factor), and increasingly not so immaterial as the number of allies climbs in a 32 person (+pets) league vs 1 or more endgame or incarnate AVs.  Only a few other sets similarly benefit the rest of the team and Fire isn't one of them.

[oedipus_tex]

An interesting data point I wouldn't mind seeing (but am not personally qualified to calculate on my own) is whether a team of 8 Sonic Attack Blasters outdamages a team of 8 Fire/Ice/whatever else Blasters. 

 

Of course, even that would be a largely theoretical. The real benefit of Resist debuff is it enhances all damage, even pets, procs, and incarnate powers, and as we've said, Sonic Blasters can fall back on the raw DPS of their secondary if they need to.

 

I guess a safe place to start is the assumption that a halfway invested Blaster can sustain around -39 Resistance in ST. With 8 of them doing that, you'd have around -312% resistance before resists and purple patch. That's by no means a scientific survey. But it does mean each Blaster is in theory doing 300-ish percent more damage, as are all their procs, Lore pets, judgements etc. Of course in the real world most stuff dies before you'd ever stack that much resist.

 

On the flip side, practically the only task you're likely to fail in this game is AV fights, particularly in iTrials. 

 

This isn't to say I think Sonic Attack is amazing on Blasters. But its definitely way better than Assault Rifle and the like. No one has any questions about how 8 Assault Rifle Blasters collectively perform.

Edited November 6, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Kachooman]

3 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Proof of what?

 

I am pretty sure the chart is from this thread, its an apples to apple comparison for Blaster primary's using a mission clear as the timer.

 

Much more true to actual gameplay.

[Erratic1]

36 minutes ago, Kachooman said:

Much more true to actual gameplay.

 

I am pretty sure actual gameplay would be what is the most true.

 

https://imgur.com/jvjBu5A

 

I was not working with a timer so it seems to me starting damage on the Sonic section a second late is actually pretty amazing. Correspondingly Sonic finishes dealing with its pair of equal level yellow and white opponents a second later than fire. One might figure that for such a horribly low damage set it might have taken longer.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Erratic1

[CloudMouse]

30 minutes ago, Kachooman said:

 

I am pretty sure the chart is from this thread, its an apples to apple comparison for Blaster primary's using a mission clear as the timer.

 

Much more true to actual gameplay.

how is 'actual gameplay' made consistent between tests?

[Erratic1]

13 minutes ago, CloudMouse said:

how is 'actual gameplay' made consistent between tests?

 

I think another thing to consider is the "standard test" only looks at using the powerset's powers (at least I think that is the case....been a while since I read that thread). If so it is -=NOT=- actual gameplay. As noted upthread, the resistance debuff from Sonic benefits the other damaging powers the Sonic blaster has--what is in their secondary and epic power sets. 

[Kachooman]

8 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I think another thing to consider is the "standard test" only looks at using the powerset's powers (at least I think that is the case....been a while since I read that thread). If so it is -=NOT=- actual gameplay. As noted upthread, the resistance debuff from Sonic benefits the other damaging powers the Sonic blaster has--what is in their secondary and epic power sets. 

 

Its still a lot closer to gameplay than a pylon test.

I think its fair to say sonic isn't really top tier dps for blaster. I think any blast set works fine for clearing any content but some hit a fair bit harder.
I don't think the other guy was wrong saying its in the bottom half of the pile is my only point.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

This isn't to say I think Sonic Attack is amazing on Blasters. But its definitely way better than Assault Rifle and the like. No one has any questions about how 8 Assault Rifle Blasters collectively perform.

 

Having never tired Assault Rifle on a blaster, I could not say. I am definitely saying Sonic is a shining star or a top performer, just I do not think it (a) is near so bad as people make it out to be and (b) it does actually up damage for the group the Sonic blaster is with--which is worth something (at least to some people).

 

But I am unusual in that for my, "push button, deliver damage" needs I would tend towards one of the melee ATs and for ranged I need a bit more entertainment. That my explain why it looks like Sonic/TA will be only the second Blaster I have taken to 50 (if I can get in four more levels on the character)--he's more defender/controllerish than I would expect out of a blaster and there is wicked fun in slowing a bunch of mobs with Oil Slick and then setting the entire lot not only on fire but debuffing their resistance at the same time.

[Erratic1]

6 minutes ago, Kachooman said:

I think its fair to say sonic isn't really top tier dps for blaster. I think any blast set works fine for clearing any content but some hit a fair bit harder.
I don't think the other guy was wrong saying its in the bottom half of the pile is my only point.

 

I would not disagree with any of that.

[CloudMouse]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

 

I would not disagree with any of that.

having just completed a project which included fully slotting (incl ATOs) and getting all incarnates to T4 on a sonic/sonic blaster - yeah, it doesn't keep up. 

[oedipus_tex]

If the chart represents solo clear times then I don't think it's surprising Sonic Attack is near the bottom. IMO it would be overpowered if Sonic both defbuffed enemy Resistance and still had you clearing maps as fast as other sets.

 

At the end of the day Sonic Attack on Blasters is still 65% as good at debuffing as it is on Defenders (20% vs 13%). Defenders mostly don't get a secondary devoted to damage like Blasters do and in my experience have a much harder time trying to fill the solo hole. That's the price of Howl in particular. Two Howls from a Blaster beats the resist debuffing of Dark Miasma, Radiation Emission, Thermal, or Time on Controllers, MMs, and Corruptors. 

 

It's also worth noting that stripping -Resist also strips Damage from the opponent. So depending on how Sonic is comboed it can end up debuffing the attack strength of enemies.

 

I do think the animation on Shout is worth fixing. It's too long. In the meantime I think Sonic Attack overall is mostly okay. Sonic Attack is a debuff set foremost, and Blaster's aren't specialists in that. Sonic/some high DPS blap set is pretty viable though for a middling, not incredible character who teams a lot if you want to do something different.

[FUBARczar]

In order to play Sonic Blast one must rely on your secondary power set, or team.

 

The problem with relying on your own secondary set powers is the two non-nuke AoEs are narrowish come attacks while the best damaging secondary attacks are going to be melee attacks.  This is why Sonic/Dark is a frontrunner for worst blaster combo.

 

The second requires relying on your team because Sonic doesn't do so well by itself.  Let's hope that you are not the last man standing with your team hoping that you can cut down a Redwood with a vegetable/fruit peeler.   

 

Sonic is best on a defender or sentinel.  But if all forms of Screech also got the Sentinel version then Sonic would be a descent option.

 

So for blasters all you want is the T1 or T2 + Aim + Nuke

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

The problem with relying on your own secondary set powers is the two non-nuke AoEs are narrowish come attacks while the best damaging secondary attacks are going to be melee attacks.  This is why Sonic/Dark is a frontrunner for worst blaster combo.

 

*Glances at Tactical Arrow and notes both Glue Arrow and Oil slick are Ranged (Location) AoE, not cones...and that the set comes with no melee attacks*

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

*Glances at Tactical Arrow and notes both Glue Arrow and Oil slick are Ranged (Location) AoE, not cones...and that the set comes with no melee attacks*

 

Yeah sure, but it also lacks solid ST  damage just like Sonic.  So TA would help Sonic be a blasttroller, but light on the blast.

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Yeah sure, but it also lacks solid ST  damage just like Sonic.  So TA would help Sonic be a blasttroller, but light on the blast.

 

I will admit its wasteful, but nothing keeps you from using the AoEs you have.

[Maelwys]

15 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

If the chart represents solo clear times then I don't think it's surprising Sonic Attack is near the bottom.

From what I can see, it's solo clear times on an average mission map with SO enhancements only (no IOs, no procs, no incarnates, etc).
That's why Fire Blast is so far ahead of the rest of the pack - that setup hasn't been particularly applicable to real-world CoH builds ever since issue 9.

[Ironscarlet]

Why research 2D charts when the real question is "Why do you want to build your character?"

Welcome to the 4th Dimension of character building.

 

The charts above are a good learning tool but only maybe to lvl 50 saving for sets. If your building for the minimax those chart are almost useless.

 

For Example: Over a year ago I was board. I pulled out mids and wanted to make a blaster with cap def to all without Incarnates. I Wanted to make a toon that could solo +4x8 fast and smooth. The only one I found that could cap range, aoe and MELEE together was Sonic/Ninja. Shelved it till a update about a year ago that buffed ninja then I rolled it and it became my 2nd fav toon. With combat tp to target keybinds it is a melee machine the -res and -def doesn’t hurt either. It plays more like a scrapper than a blaster but that’s what I wanted.

 

 

Now you could build most blasters to 33% and eat purples for the full cap. The most meta of these is Fire/Atomic build that eats a purple to cap def but it is by far the most damage/op build in game. You still need to eat a purple to survive solo that being said when is the mission ever long enough that you run out.

 

At the End of the day I am very happy with Sonic I built my toon to Solo +4/8 and it can do it faster than most of my other toons. When I can afford the last few enhancement for the sets maybe I could even solo a ITF which was my 2nd goal.

 

A  AV killing toon is diffrent than a farm toon which is difftent than a mission toon.

 

Build for a purpose not a data point.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Ironscarlet

[FUBARczar]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:52 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

I will admit its wasteful, but nothing keeps you from using the AoEs you have.

The point is they are awkward.  If you have to rely on being in melee range for damage then narrow cones suck even more.  It the build fighting with itself.

[FUBARczar]

21 hours ago, Maelwys said:

From what I can see, it's solo clear times on an average mission map with SO enhancements only (no IOs, no procs, no incarnates, etc).
That's why Fire Blast is so far ahead of the rest of the pack - that setup hasn't been particularly applicable to real-world CoH builds ever since issue 9.

ummm no, not true.  You can do what ever kind of test you want pylons, solo a TF (ITF, TinPex, etc), solo an 801 in AE, etc.  Fire will still be tier 1 and Sonic tier last.

[Maelwys]

19 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

ummm no, not true.  You can do what ever kind of test you want pylons, solo a TF (ITF, TinPex, etc), solo an 801 in AE, etc.  Fire will still be tier 1 and Sonic tier last.

How about regular team content.
Like Missions? Or a Taskforce? On 4x8? With player debuffs/enemy buffs? And the new difficulty additions?

My point in the last post was not that Fire Blast is bad.
It was that Fire Blast is only THAT far ahead of the rest of the pack whenever you're (i) soloing and (ii) restricted to only using SO enhancements.

Fire will always be a good powerset. But the bulk of its damage is tied up in Blaze and Inferno; and its secondary effect is a DoT.
That means it tends to corpse-blast a lot on teams; and it has no procable secondary effects (unlike -Defence or -ToHit or -Slow Movement); and it needs a lot of +Recharge slotting to achieve an optimal attack chain. A high-end IO build will therefore often add less additional performance to Fire Blast than it does to other powersets.
Fire Blast starts off Tier 1 (with SOs and minimal investment) and remains at Tier 1 (after heavy investment - an expensive IO build and full T4 Incarnates).
The other blast sets start off Tier 2 or 3 or 4... some of them stay there, but a few end up at Tier 1 or Tier S depending on the team size + content.

Sonic was always rather mediocre as a soloing powerset - it's not "irredeemable", but often the best use it has is to soften up a foe for your secondary's "blapp" attacks. It's considerably better on team content due to the -resistance effect; but like Fire Blast it also suffers from a lack of additional procing opportunities; so it'll never be a Tier 1 set.
Other sets can be though - an IOed Fire/ Blaster is good at team content, but Ice/ and Water/ and the newly-revamped Electrical/ can often contend on the same level, if not a smidge higher.


 

[Erratic1]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

The point is they are awkward.  If you have to rely on being in melee range for damage then narrow cones suck even more.  It the build fighting with itself.

 

Neither  Oil Slick nor Glue arrow require such. But like I said, TA is a bit different.

 

Hmmm...Atomic Manipulation has a PBAoE, but no other area attack. Devices has Trip Mine and Time Bomb, both of which are non-cone area damage. Electric Manipulation has Thunder Strike as a melee AoE.....

[CloudMouse]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:31 PM, Ironscarlet said:

Why research 2D charts when the real question is "Why do you want to build your character?"

Welcome to the 4th Dimension of character building.

 

The charts above are a good learning tool but only maybe to lvl 50 saving for sets. If your building for the minimax those chart are almost useless.

 

For Example: Over a year ago I was board. I pulled out mids and wanted to make a blaster with cap def to all without Incarnates. I Wanted to make a toon that could solo +4x8 fast and smooth. The only one I found that could cap range, aoe and MELEE together was Sonic/Ninja. Shelved it till a update about a year ago that buffed ninja then I rolled it and it became my 2nd fav toon. With combat tp to target keybinds it is a melee machine the -res and -def doesn’t hurt either. It plays more like a scrapper than a blaster but that’s what I wanted.

 

 

Now you could build most blasters to 33% and eat purples for the full cap. The most meta of these is Fire/Atomic build that eats a purple to cap def but it is by far the most damage/op build in game. You still need to eat a purple to survive solo that being said when is the mission ever long enough that you run out.

 

At the End of the day I am very happy with Sonic I built my toon to Solo +4/8 and it can do it faster than most of my other toons. When I can afford the last few enhancement for the sets maybe I could even solo a ITF which was my 2nd goal.

 

A  AV killing toon is diffrent than a farm toon which is difftent than a mission toon.

 

Build for a purpose not a data point.

 

 

 

after seeing the HC dev report last year showing sonic/ninja was the least built blaster combo I rolled one - can confirm its absolutely fun to play. 

[A Cat]

22 hours ago, CloudMouse said:

 

after seeing the HC dev report last year showing sonic/ninja was the least built blaster combo I rolled one - can confirm its absolutely fun to play. 

So you two are loud ninjas.

 

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