Compiled Dev Choice Awards for HC. (ongoing)

[Dacy]

27 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Doesn't it seem to be the point of this thread to somehow mark missions in the AE that are "good" story arcs so that they can be easily found by players?

Yes. Thought I was contributing. Apparently not. I'll shuffle off now, let y'all figure it out. In my mind, having arcs meant to be stories, not farms, not RP specific to a character or sg, listed in searchable ways that are easy to understand, is preferable to a wall of choices that might or might not be what I want. So I suggested  listing those out, separate from the chaff, so to speak, in a directory. Not like the base directory, where we'd like to list all the bases, but just a story directory.

 

I want a good story with good action in my alignment. My guess is that people who go to the AE go for one of four reasons: 1. to find enjoyable new stories. 2. To farm 3. To make or play a story specific to an RP, or 4. To make really high difficulty content. And no, you can make really high difficulty content without just "throwing in GMs". Pairing some of the right kinds of debuffers with your damage will wipe teams out if you don't use them sparingly, for instance. Of COURSE there are certain combinations that are much more lethal than others. Picture an enemy group with sappers and Super Stunners and dark -tohit. There is a reason the general game doesn't put all of the nasty into one group, but you can totally custom groups that do. Very much not like "meeting a new group" in game.  As to your swipe at me for not wanting to spend all my limited play time searching through the database to see what was there in terms of story, sorry that was my experience. I have farmed, finding a farm is easy. Story and alignment doesn't matter. But to find a story I'd like to try takes time. I was trying to show what someone who isn't a regular AE creator does to try and find something to play, someone who is willing and looking for a story to try. If you don't understand where the process falls down, you can't begin to address the problems.

 

Guess I'm the odd duck (again) on actually playing characters from start to 50+, but I do that, and that is how the general game is set up. I can understand why people would create arcs for just the 50s, as you say, but I also know there are other people (and they are usually the story focused ones) that take their time and don't rush to 50. The people who only want to play 50s are usually not the ones focusing on the stories. Something to consider, for those willing to do so.

 

Tapping out.

[Jiro Ito]

26 minutes ago, Dacy said:

Yes. Thought I was contributing. Apparently not. I'll shuffle off now, let y'all figure it out. In my mind, having arcs meant to be stories, not farms, not RP specific to a character or sg, listed in searchable ways that are easy to understand, is preferable to a wall of choices that might or might not be what I want. So I suggested  listing those out, separate from the chaff, so to speak, in a directory. Not like the base directory, where we'd like to list all the bases, but just a story directory.

 

I want a good story with good action in my alignment. My guess is that people who go to the AE go for one of four reasons: 1. to find enjoyable new stories. 2. To farm 3. To make or play a story specific to an RP, or 4. To make really high difficulty content. And no, you can make really high difficulty content without just "throwing in GMs". Pairing some of the right kinds of debuffers with your damage will wipe teams out if you don't use them sparingly, for instance. Of COURSE there are certain combinations that are much more lethal than others. Picture an enemy group with sappers and Super Stunners and dark -tohit. There is a reason the general game doesn't put all of the nasty into one group, but you can totally custom groups that do. Very much not like "meeting a new group" in game.  As to your swipe at me for not wanting to spend all my limited play time searching through the database to see what was there in terms of story, sorry that was my experience. I have farmed, finding a farm is easy. Story and alignment doesn't matter. But to find a story I'd like to try takes time. I was trying to show what someone who isn't a regular AE creator does to try and find something to play, someone who is willing and looking for a story to try. If you don't understand where the process falls down, you can't begin to address the problems.

 

Guess I'm the odd duck (again) on actually playing characters from start to 50+, but I do that, and that is how the general game is set up. I can understand why people would create arcs for just the 50s, as you say, but I also know there are other people (and they are usually the story focused ones) that take their time and don't rush to 50. The people who only want to play 50s are usually not the ones focusing on the stories. Something to consider, for those willing to do so.

 

Tapping out.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide your feedback and point of view Dacy

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

In my mind, having arcs meant to be stories, not farms, not RP specific to a character or sg, listed in searchable ways that are easy to understand, is preferable to a wall of choices that might or might not be what I want.

 

I'm there with you.

Have you tried searching by the tags?

 

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

So I suggested  listing those out, separate from the chaff, so to speak, in a directory.

 

Yeah. I'm there with you on the intent.

I think that is what this thread is about.

 

I believe that if it isn't in the AE itself then it will be just as dismissed as the base listing spreadsheet.

Only the elite will use it, so what's the point.

 

I don't think most players even know about the AE tag system that has been around for practically as long as the AE system has been live.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

My guess is that people who go to the AE go for one of four reasons: 1. to find enjoyable new stories. 2. To farm 3. To make or play a story specific to an RP, or 4. To make really high difficulty content. And no, you can make really high difficulty content without just "throwing in GMs".

 

I think you have your order wrong.

1) Farming

2) Enjoyable stories

3) Difficult content (and no one said that you couldn't make difficult content without AVs, but AVs are obviously difficult content while leveling and on a small team)

4) RP

 

Farming is overwhelmingly the largest use of the AE.

How often do you see /lfg messages for farming or door-sitting in the AE?

When is the last time you saw a /lfg message for someone recruiting for an AE story team?

 

RP is at the bottom of the list for sure. Players will do that in the Pocket D, in a base, or while running around doing missions. Honestly, I have NEVER run into anyone RP'ing in a mission. 

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

Picture an enemy group with sappers and Super Stunners and dark -tohit. There is a reason the general game doesn't put all of the nasty into one group, but you can totally custom groups that do. Very much not like "meeting a new group" in game.

 

Someone "could" do that, but I have never seen that in an AE mission.

I find your example to be intentionally extreme.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

As to your swipe at me for not wanting to spend all my limited play time searching through the database to see what was there in terms of story, sorry that was my experience.

 

I think the goal is to help prevent that from having to happen.

 

Suggesting to search using the tags and creators names should help narrow down that search and the time "wasted" looking for favorable content.

It looks like the main tags that you would want to use for searching would be

 

Mission Type Tags

[SFMA] - Story Focused Mission Arc

 

Challenge Level Tags

[LBMA] - LowBie friendly Mission Arc

[MLMA] - Mid-Level Mission Arc (Appropriate for levels 20-40, Post SOs and Pre-Epic Pools)

[HLMA] - High Level Mission Arc (Appropriate for levels 40+)

 

I would also search for "low" + "level" to find more leveling-related arcs.

I would suggest using the "my level" button but that apparently only really takes the first mission in an arc into account, but that can help narrow it down.

 

What I tend to do is to pick a genre or keyword to search for.

 

Say "Kaiju" or "Horror" (for this time of the year). Now pair that with the "my level" button and that really narrows it down.

One would think "horror" might be a pretty broad category, but only 2 pages worth with the "my level" button active at level 30.

 

Now into the tags. it seems that the search can't take them if you put them inside [ ]  most of the time, but if you type in - say sfma - it will search for that.

So you could click on the "my level" button and then search for horror sfma.

At level 30, I'm seeing 3 arcs.

 

I agree there aren't keyword buttons for hero, vigilante, rogue, or villain. It seems to be an oversight by the DEVs honestly.

No tags were created for the alignments either.

Reading the descriptions would tend to clarify what alignment the missions are in most cases.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

I was trying to show what someone who isn't a regular AE creator does to try and find something to play, someone who is willing and looking for a story to try. If you don't understand where the process falls down, you can't begin to address the problems.

 

Yep. It falls down from the start.

Allowing farming in the first place.

Not creating an interface that is user friendly.

 

The various "keywords" aren't even radio buttons that can be clicked for a search.

Where are those "keywords" listed? You have to start creating a mission and go into Story Settings and see them listed in the Story parameters section.

Easy

Challenging

Idea of Teams

Solo Friendly

Custom Charact (yep, not even "custom characters". Just "Custom Charact")

Complex Mecha (yep, not even "complex mechanics")

Non-canon Story

Canon Related

Rule the World

Save the World

Origin Story

Magic

Comedy

Horror

Sci-fi

Drama

Kid friendly

Romance

Mystery

 

Of course, once you do search, those keywords are on the listings

 

Any of this explained in the interface? No.

Any tutorials about the AE in the AE interface? No.

 

There are a good number of tutorial stuff in the wiki, but mostly it is all figure it out for yourself.

 

No way for players to provide information in-game in the AE interface to help someone new to the interface.

That's all on the Dev-side.

 

Again, a "Tanker Tuesday" sort of situation seems to be the route to go to start. It would cut-out the selection process down to what - hopefully - would be story missions.

I think this is really the starting point. AE Community lead AE mission teams.

 

The next level is what I was suggesting originally getting the DEVs to add a "Farm" and a "Community Choice" icons.

Of course some have suggested use of the search term "-", so someone could put in "-farm" and it would list all arcs without the word "farm".

The "Community Choice" would be basically replacement for the inactive "Dev's choice" - and I would hope that Farms would be left out of this selection.

 

The interface does suck.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

Guess I'm the odd duck (again) on actually playing characters from start to 50+

 

Not at all.

I have like 3 50's. I am not going to level any other characters past 49.

I'm even level-locking some characters at lower levels so that I have characters to join teams on par with the level of the team.

 

This was from a while back, but ...

 

 

As you can see, my average character level is below level 31 on all of the servers.

It would be a disservice not to realize that around 1/2 of the community is only playing 50s (or in the process of power-leveling to 50). 

 

I like the leveling process as part of character progression, and I love to "ding".

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

and that is how the general game is set up.

 

yep. The "leveling" is the game. The end-game is what is stuck on the "end" of the game.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

The people who only want to play 50s are usually not the ones focusing on the stories.

 

I will agree with that as well.

 

I'm also going to wait for the more of the others in this thread to respond before responding again. 

 

Edited October 29 by UltraAlt

[Dacy]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I believe that if it isn't in the AE itself then it will be just as dismissed as the base listing spreadsheet.

Only the elite will use it, so what's the point.

 

 I did come back to see because you replied. See this? This use of "elite" and your repeated claims that the base building community is "elite" are hurtful. I know a few people 'dismissed" the directory, but it's a valuable reference, and until such time as we have something in game to use, it's all we have. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. I can't program the game, I can't get the devs to value the things I value, so I do what I can, and it feels really antagonistic when you keep putting it down. Even if the directory wasn't even my idea, I think it has value. Of course, maybe you don't realize how often I used to get asked, "hey what's the code for such and such base", so maybe you don't realize how often people DO use it. I wish there was another alternative, but right now, we improved what was there by updating and correcting it and making it so other players can't mess with entries that aren't theirs, and that's all we can do. As for the base building community being "elite", also hurtful. Different builders have different standards for themselves, and some have very high levels of expertise and skill, but it's not an exclusive elite club; no one looks down on those who do not do as much or have less skill.  I help beginners all the time and all are welcome, and I encourage (and see) builders helping each other. I have never dissed someone's base for not being up to some imagined standard (or at all, honestly, there is no reason to do that!) Building is the marriage of imagination, perseverance, and practice. It's not some unattainable status that should be seen as exclusive, "elite". Do contests only award to the bases judged as best by standards that have to be set in order for it to be a contest? Yes. And that is why I said, contests have problems. Because there are lots of great bases out there, but in a contest, winners are limited. And I bet there are lots of great stories out there, but if you have a contest, winners will be limited. And then you'll get people complaining about how the AE people are "elite".  But contests do open the doors for more people to be exposed to whatever the contest is about. More bases are toured. More stories are looked at. If you don't find some way to expose people, then you truly do have just the "elite" few who have managed to get people to their stories or bases, and the material is good enough that word of mouth does its work. But in my experience, only a few things will earn recognition like this, and authors, like builders, crave recognition. I do not know anyone who has written or built anything who does not want someone to come see or play what they've done. Hence, this dilemma. How to get that word out.

 

I can only go by my experience, and my experience is, the more methods you use to get the word out, the more people will hear. Forums, discord, reference aids like a directory, streamers, YouTube, other social media sources, server leaders, posters, and announcements on General. Each of these will reach a portion of your audience that the others will not. Contests and giveaways will perk the interest of some; Tanker Tuesday type events will bring in others, but the more avenues, the better.

 

Your description of what someone has to do to find a story driven arc (with no promises of quality) are a perfect example of why I was recommending a directory. First of all, someone would have had to put those tags on their story. "Story driven arc" can also refer to a story created for a specific role play, so there's that overlap. It just would be nice to have a reference, with a better interface, was all I was saying. It's also a hella work, so, yeah. Not ideal. Neither, as you illustrate, is the interface.

 

My itemization of uses of the AE were not in order of most use. Obviously. It was just a list.

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

It would be a disservice not to realize that around 1/2 of the community is only playing 50s (or in the process of power-leveling to 50). 

Which means 1/2 are not. Isn't it a disservice not to also include them in what is written? Especially since they are the ones most likely to be interested in the story. But anyway. Enough. 🙂 I talk too much. Got stuff to do...

 

[UltraAlt]

34 minutes ago, Dacy said:

This use of "elite" and your repeated claims that the base building community is "elite" are hurtful.

 

I wanted to hold off replaying, but this is about my comment more than about this thread.

 

I apologize if it hurts your feelings, but seemed to me that the Base Building Community wasn't for the average base builder.

You didn't use the term "elite" but you used other terms that pointed toward that meaning.

I did use that term because that was how I felt and why I step out of that areana.

You and Easter Bunny were the Community Reps and the two of you were making the calls for that Community.

I said my peace and I left. I didn't feel like my base building was to the "level expected" to be able to participate.

That's how I felt.

 

In reference to the elite in the case, the system AE system is already convoluted as you have pointed out.

Making a spreadsheet somewhere with "approved" or "confirmed" story arcs somewhere would not be within each reach of the community either. It would have the be referenced in some locked thread here and/or on the wiki and people would have to go looking for it rather than it being in the game as easily accessible.

 

Who would get to decide what is on the spreadsheet and who would access it?

I'm assuming it would be mostly accessed by the players putting things on the list as most other players wouldn't even know it was there.

 

That is why I suggested the in-game badges and the AE - it is in the interface; and why I suggested the "Tanker Tuesday" model as it promotes Story Arc Missions.

 

We bump heads. That's fine. We are both outspoken, and I don't think either one of us should stop being outspoken.

In the end, I think our collision brings thing to light for other people.

I don't consider you to be attacking me. You shouldn't consider me to be attacking you.

 

I'm a Jack-of-All Trades and Master of none.

I'm not trying to be "the best"; I'm just trying to have fun and interact with people.

[ZamuelNow]

Scrapped my original comment.

 

Ugh, may take me until the weekend to reply because there's a mix of valid points that need addressing and I have work in the morning.

[TerroirNoir2]

Oh dear God what have I done?

 

Err... anyway. I don't have a directory. The nearest thing I have are these: 

 

And the continuation:

 

Nicely broken up by our friend @Zhym here:

 

HOWEVER...IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS FOR SOME OF THE ABOVE THEN TRY THIS:

 

 

 

Lots of AE writers post a blurb for their work here in the Mission Architect section but (correct me if I'm wrong) so far I've only seen @Darmian do this.  And I figure this sort a thing would fit into a directory reasonably well.

 

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

Lots of AE writers post a blurb for their work here in the Mission Architect section but (correct me if I'm wrong) so far I've only seen @Darmian do this.  And I figure this sort a thing would fit into a directory reasonably well.

 

There are several that post about others' arcs here, but they do not do directories of their works.

 

If it is a forum listing that includes everyone arcs, it should be updated in the main posts that would be thumbtacked. Submissions could be replied and then whomever posted the initial post would move the new submissions into the first post on that thumbtacked listing of story arcs.

 

I would suggest that it is titled as "AE Story Arcs" or something like that and that have a listing of story arcs by creator in alphabetical order by arc creator.

I think it would be good to suggest creators that post submissions to the list include the keywords and tags (listing this at the top of the post so those looking at the post immediately know what they are looking at as they read through the listing".

 

The listing information already done? It should be easy enough to copy-and-paste that information into the new main combined listing.

 

For myself, I just want to see people's story arcs get some publicity so that they will be played.

 

 

Edited October 30 by UltraAlt
correct to theirs to others' (was rushing to finish)

[cranebump]

I've created 50 arcs. I don't know where that places me numerically, but I have to figure I'm in the upper quarter somewhere (which is as much a testament to how much free time I used to have versus now). As an exclusively SFMA scripter, I can only comment on my own creation conceits. To wit:

• Except for a couple of attempts at a Task Force style story, I have scripted only for soloists. That's who I assume is doing most of the AE play. That's what I test for. Which means I'm never 100% certain how things will go when a team gives things a shot. I also assume that the typical soloist (probably with attuned IOs), and is being exemplared down. They've done the game. They're looking for something else.
• AT matters. Some toons will blast right through a set of customs. Some will fall down before stock enemies. You can never truly know for sure how things will go, unless you get feedback (which I have, and am thankful for). I don't test for every AT. I usually test with a tank and a squishie. Which means some players will have good experiences, and others won't. 
• I can do story all damned day. A lot of scripters can. But the AE can't always execute exactly what I want, however. I don't have tools for fine placement of baddies, or text appearing on the screen, or enemies/allies that TP out. There are no cut scenes. You have a limited amount of text (which, even if you use it, can be more than anyone wants to read). In short, it's really hard to not only tell a good story with memorable NPCs/events, but also to create mechanically clean execution of said story (much less novel execution). So you end up taking the path of water, telling the best story the mechanism can allow. In some ways this is a good thing. In other ways, it's frustrating.

Because of the factors above, I find myself being very forgiving when I judge anyone's arc. It's just so damned hard to get things competent, much less excellent. And there's a big gulf between those two (see a LOT of the older in-game hero arcs).  

 

A Community Choice award is an excellent idea. If it had some sort of basic criteria, even better (I still don't know what the Devs were looking for when they selected various arcs, including the two I was recognized for). Assuming we agreed to a basic standard, I think a panel would be best to actually judge. There would have to be a reasonable number of nominations for everyone to handle within a given time frame (quarterly, perhaps?). Then there's 2-3 recognized arcs from from the pile. Choices get sent to the Devs. Seal of Approval added. You used to get merits for getting a Dev's Choice, too, back in the day (like 1,000 was it?). So there was incentive beyond just recognition.

 

I don't know how much of this is doable, because, like the Devs, people have lives. I switched employers and lost my cushy 4-day work week. My scripting AND reviewing took a hit. I'm sure others have much tougher schedules, and limited play time. That, to me, is the obstacle. Who wants to dedicate themselves to this aspect of CoH, knowing that a vast majority of folks are there just to bash heads and gain levels? (which is sorta how these games work, right?) It has to be someone (or some someones) who really dig this aspect of the game. That's how you got all the base building support. 

 

Question is: who loves SFMA stuff enough to make it one of their primary focuses?

[Darmian]

3 hours ago, cranebump said:

Question is: who loves SFMA stuff enough to make it one of their primary focuses?

God help me I do BUT...I literally don't have the time to adjudicate someone else's work.  I wish I did.  I USED to but life throws things at you.  I'm thinking this panel of judges would have to be a rotating thing, say a group of 12 and 5 to 6 are cued up for their rotation on judging.  Frankly I'm wondering if an Oscars style thing wouldn't be viable?  Best TF style AE, Best script, Best Villain, Best Comedic AE (no musicals alas).  Whatever.  That last sentence is me spitballing though.

 

(And I agree with nearly 100% of what @cranebump says. I aim for excellence.  And when I don't manage that I try to hide the errors!)

[Clave Dark 5]

Maybe like a book club, anyone can participate, "over the next two weeks, we're playing another dreary and confusing arc from Clave Dark 5 called, simply, Ugh.  You have two weeks to go play and then we'll vote on including it or not." 

 

Hm... That voting of course unfortunately leaves room from developing bad blood, so you'd have to vote in private or something, "the board has decided to recommend SuperSteve's This Rocks Rock for [award]," without going into any posting that negative judgement of "we played Clave's and hated it.' 

 

So maybe that's a bad idea - book clubs don't hand out awards, just talk about what they did or didn't like about the book.  And as a group they generally decide on what book to look at anyways.

[cranebump]

15 hours ago, Darmian said:

(And I agree with nearly 100% of what @cranebump says. I aim for excellence.  And when I don't manage that I try to hide the errors!)

Nearly? 

        (produces moleskin pad, scribbles) 

This will not go down well with the Committee.

[Zhym]

It may just be that the best way of identifying and rewarding good AE story arcs is what we have right now: people posting in this forum, either with reviews or posting about their arcs. 

[ZamuelNow]

So, this will be kinda stream of consciousness.  A lot will be in response to @UltraAlt and @Dacy but not necessarily direct quotes.  I think a lot of things need context to why they're the way they are.  If forced to tldr, I think playing on teams and posting reviews will do the most to boost Mission Architect and while things look bleak, I have faith that the devs will fix at least some things.

 

Before I wall of text, I guess a bit on where I'm coming from.  I joined in I14 with Mission Architect being the thing that finally pushed me to get City of Heroes.  I've had a "review" thread where I helped people fix typos, grammar, and mission flow.  Never been the most prolific AE author but been around pre shutdown.  Only joined Homecoming after the NCSoft announcement.

 

The main benefits to Dev's Choice are showcasing high quality player created missions and giving the players of those missions better rewards than normal AE missions.  Both of these are slightly broken.  For the first, the fall off on rewarding new Dev Choice's makes it feel dead even though people can obviously play already existing missions.  "Is there anything other than farming?"  For the second, it used to be tickets were default and you only got to pick between tickets and standard rewards on Dev Choice.  I was asking myself who made the foolish decision to expand the choice to all missions.  Tickets had an, admittedly minor, effect on farming in that not getting standard drops requires players to alter things to gear up.  Tickets also opened some marketing niches.  Things have been established for a while so changing things back would cause more harm than good, I'm just pointing out that Dev's Choice is technically broken as a concept.  Only slightly, though.  It can still do good but as a holistic solution, not a standalone.

 

The thing about "five missions, level 50 only, Final Destination" when it comes to getting newcomers to try out AE is that it's intimidating.  It can be intimidating to ME and I've got experience with the system.  There's this behemoth in front of you, advertising that it's part of a long series, and you have no idea if it's any good or if it's good but not to your tastes.  Not everyone wants to play their 50s to the exclusion of everything else.  Mid size and smaller arcs have their place and are better introductions to the system. But all of these have reasons.  Some people want to play at 50 and don't want to lose those powers exemplaring down.  Some arcs are long because the author had a ton of ideas (though they need to watch for bloat).  Villain and Praetorian arcs stem from feeling there's gaps in the official game (but countered by the high number of hero only players).

 

While there are outliers, I think a lot of people want difficulty similar to rest of the game.  Annoyingly, that's kinda difficult.  The damage and debuff numbers on custom critters are often higher than other at level enemies.  And thanks to the farmers, we have to take more custom powers than we used to for full rewards.  There are ways to mitigate this for balanced arcs but it takes a delicate touch.  What doesn't help is the difficulty of planning around varied player builds.  Someone with a min-max build can skew things for more lightly built players.

 

As far as the four types of arcs in the system, there's actually five and I think that fifth one is actually the most populous--a quick test out of curiosity or for badges that was left in the system instead of being deleted.  There's a graveyard of them but you don't notice since they have few to no ratings.  Honestly, I think most story writers wouldn't even bat an eye at farms if there weren't so many and farmers just collected around a few good ones.

 

The thing about a Tanker Tuesday type event is that it's a great idea...and we did something similar pre shutdown.  Not seeing a regular AE group was the thing that most shocked me when joining Homecoming.  Actually running arcs gets people talking about the arc and builds memories among those who attended.  So...I guess I'll try to be the change I want to see.  I've started putting out feelers to see when other things are running so I don't try to run at the same as a MSR or other large event.

 

In looking to the future, I think being specific about needed map fixes to the devs may be the way forward.  The I27p7 fixes were a ray of hope but it required being specific with /loc coordinates.  I think the devs are (mostly) sympathetic to the plight of Mission Architect but I'm not sure if any have their fingers on the pulse of the community.  Granted, it hasn't felt like a community in a while.