Compiled Dev Choice Awards for HC. (ongoing)

[Dacy]

27 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Doesn't it seem to be the point of this thread to somehow mark missions in the AE that are "good" story arcs so that they can be easily found by players?

Yes. Thought I was contributing. Apparently not. I'll shuffle off now, let y'all figure it out. In my mind, having arcs meant to be stories, not farms, not RP specific to a character or sg, listed in searchable ways that are easy to understand, is preferable to a wall of choices that might or might not be what I want. So I suggested  listing those out, separate from the chaff, so to speak, in a directory. Not like the base directory, where we'd like to list all the bases, but just a story directory.

 

I want a good story with good action in my alignment. My guess is that people who go to the AE go for one of four reasons: 1. to find enjoyable new stories. 2. To farm 3. To make or play a story specific to an RP, or 4. To make really high difficulty content. And no, you can make really high difficulty content without just "throwing in GMs". Pairing some of the right kinds of debuffers with your damage will wipe teams out if you don't use them sparingly, for instance. Of COURSE there are certain combinations that are much more lethal than others. Picture an enemy group with sappers and Super Stunners and dark -tohit. There is a reason the general game doesn't put all of the nasty into one group, but you can totally custom groups that do. Very much not like "meeting a new group" in game.  As to your swipe at me for not wanting to spend all my limited play time searching through the database to see what was there in terms of story, sorry that was my experience. I have farmed, finding a farm is easy. Story and alignment doesn't matter. But to find a story I'd like to try takes time. I was trying to show what someone who isn't a regular AE creator does to try and find something to play, someone who is willing and looking for a story to try. If you don't understand where the process falls down, you can't begin to address the problems.

 

Guess I'm the odd duck (again) on actually playing characters from start to 50+, but I do that, and that is how the general game is set up. I can understand why people would create arcs for just the 50s, as you say, but I also know there are other people (and they are usually the story focused ones) that take their time and don't rush to 50. The people who only want to play 50s are usually not the ones focusing on the stories. Something to consider, for those willing to do so.

 

Tapping out.

[Jiro Ito]

26 minutes ago, Dacy said:

Yes. Thought I was contributing. Apparently not. I'll shuffle off now, let y'all figure it out. In my mind, having arcs meant to be stories, not farms, not RP specific to a character or sg, listed in searchable ways that are easy to understand, is preferable to a wall of choices that might or might not be what I want. So I suggested  listing those out, separate from the chaff, so to speak, in a directory. Not like the base directory, where we'd like to list all the bases, but just a story directory.

 

I want a good story with good action in my alignment. My guess is that people who go to the AE go for one of four reasons: 1. to find enjoyable new stories. 2. To farm 3. To make or play a story specific to an RP, or 4. To make really high difficulty content. And no, you can make really high difficulty content without just "throwing in GMs". Pairing some of the right kinds of debuffers with your damage will wipe teams out if you don't use them sparingly, for instance. Of COURSE there are certain combinations that are much more lethal than others. Picture an enemy group with sappers and Super Stunners and dark -tohit. There is a reason the general game doesn't put all of the nasty into one group, but you can totally custom groups that do. Very much not like "meeting a new group" in game.  As to your swipe at me for not wanting to spend all my limited play time searching through the database to see what was there in terms of story, sorry that was my experience. I have farmed, finding a farm is easy. Story and alignment doesn't matter. But to find a story I'd like to try takes time. I was trying to show what someone who isn't a regular AE creator does to try and find something to play, someone who is willing and looking for a story to try. If you don't understand where the process falls down, you can't begin to address the problems.

 

Guess I'm the odd duck (again) on actually playing characters from start to 50+, but I do that, and that is how the general game is set up. I can understand why people would create arcs for just the 50s, as you say, but I also know there are other people (and they are usually the story focused ones) that take their time and don't rush to 50. The people who only want to play 50s are usually not the ones focusing on the stories. Something to consider, for those willing to do so.

 

Tapping out.

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide your feedback and point of view Dacy

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

In my mind, having arcs meant to be stories, not farms, not RP specific to a character or sg, listed in searchable ways that are easy to understand, is preferable to a wall of choices that might or might not be what I want.

 

I'm there with you.

Have you tried searching by the tags?

 

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

So I suggested  listing those out, separate from the chaff, so to speak, in a directory.

 

Yeah. I'm there with you on the intent.

I think that is what this thread is about.

 

I believe that if it isn't in the AE itself then it will be just as dismissed as the base listing spreadsheet.

Only the elite will use it, so what's the point.

 

I don't think most players even know about the AE tag system that has been around for practically as long as the AE system has been live.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

My guess is that people who go to the AE go for one of four reasons: 1. to find enjoyable new stories. 2. To farm 3. To make or play a story specific to an RP, or 4. To make really high difficulty content. And no, you can make really high difficulty content without just "throwing in GMs".

 

I think you have your order wrong.

1) Farming

2) Enjoyable stories

3) Difficult content (and no one said that you couldn't make difficult content without AVs, but AVs are obviously difficult content while leveling and on a small team)

4) RP

 

Farming is overwhelmingly the largest use of the AE.

How often do you see /lfg messages for farming or door-sitting in the AE?

When is the last time you saw a /lfg message for someone recruiting for an AE story team?

 

RP is at the bottom of the list for sure. Players will do that in the Pocket D, in a base, or while running around doing missions. Honestly, I have NEVER run into anyone RP'ing in a mission. 

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

Picture an enemy group with sappers and Super Stunners and dark -tohit. There is a reason the general game doesn't put all of the nasty into one group, but you can totally custom groups that do. Very much not like "meeting a new group" in game.

 

Someone "could" do that, but I have never seen that in an AE mission.

I find your example to be intentionally extreme.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

As to your swipe at me for not wanting to spend all my limited play time searching through the database to see what was there in terms of story, sorry that was my experience.

 

I think the goal is to help prevent that from having to happen.

 

Suggesting to search using the tags and creators names should help narrow down that search and the time "wasted" looking for favorable content.

It looks like the main tags that you would want to use for searching would be

 

Mission Type Tags

[SFMA] - Story Focused Mission Arc

 

Challenge Level Tags

[LBMA] - LowBie friendly Mission Arc

[MLMA] - Mid-Level Mission Arc (Appropriate for levels 20-40, Post SOs and Pre-Epic Pools)

[HLMA] - High Level Mission Arc (Appropriate for levels 40+)

 

I would also search for "low" + "level" to find more leveling-related arcs.

I would suggest using the "my level" button but that apparently only really takes the first mission in an arc into account, but that can help narrow it down.

 

What I tend to do is to pick a genre or keyword to search for.

 

Say "Kaiju" or "Horror" (for this time of the year). Now pair that with the "my level" button and that really narrows it down.

One would think "horror" might be a pretty broad category, but only 2 pages worth with the "my level" button active at level 30.

 

Now into the tags. it seems that the search can't take them if you put them inside [ ]  most of the time, but if you type in - say sfma - it will search for that.

So you could click on the "my level" button and then search for horror sfma.

At level 30, I'm seeing 3 arcs.

 

I agree there aren't keyword buttons for hero, vigilante, rogue, or villain. It seems to be an oversight by the DEVs honestly.

No tags were created for the alignments either.

Reading the descriptions would tend to clarify what alignment the missions are in most cases.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

I was trying to show what someone who isn't a regular AE creator does to try and find something to play, someone who is willing and looking for a story to try. If you don't understand where the process falls down, you can't begin to address the problems.

 

Yep. It falls down from the start.

Allowing farming in the first place.

Not creating an interface that is user friendly.

 

The various "keywords" aren't even radio buttons that can be clicked for a search.

Where are those "keywords" listed? You have to start creating a mission and go into Story Settings and see them listed in the Story parameters section.

Easy

Challenging

Idea of Teams

Solo Friendly

Custom Charact (yep, not even "custom characters". Just "Custom Charact")

Complex Mecha (yep, not even "complex mechanics")

Non-canon Story

Canon Related

Rule the World

Save the World

Origin Story

Magic

Comedy

Horror

Sci-fi

Drama

Kid friendly

Romance

Mystery

 

Of course, once you do search, those keywords are on the listings

 

Any of this explained in the interface? No.

Any tutorials about the AE in the AE interface? No.

 

There are a good number of tutorial stuff in the wiki, but mostly it is all figure it out for yourself.

 

No way for players to provide information in-game in the AE interface to help someone new to the interface.

That's all on the Dev-side.

 

Again, a "Tanker Tuesday" sort of situation seems to be the route to go to start. It would cut-out the selection process down to what - hopefully - would be story missions.

I think this is really the starting point. AE Community lead AE mission teams.

 

The next level is what I was suggesting originally getting the DEVs to add a "Farm" and a "Community Choice" icons.

Of course some have suggested use of the search term "-", so someone could put in "-farm" and it would list all arcs without the word "farm".

The "Community Choice" would be basically replacement for the inactive "Dev's choice" - and I would hope that Farms would be left out of this selection.

 

The interface does suck.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

Guess I'm the odd duck (again) on actually playing characters from start to 50+

 

Not at all.

I have like 3 50's. I am not going to level any other characters past 49.

I'm even level-locking some characters at lower levels so that I have characters to join teams on par with the level of the team.

 

This was from a while back, but ...

 

 

As you can see, my average character level is below level 31 on all of the servers.

It would be a disservice not to realize that around 1/2 of the community is only playing 50s (or in the process of power-leveling to 50). 

 

I like the leveling process as part of character progression, and I love to "ding".

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

and that is how the general game is set up.

 

yep. The "leveling" is the game. The end-game is what is stuck on the "end" of the game.

 

3 hours ago, Dacy said:

The people who only want to play 50s are usually not the ones focusing on the stories.

 

I will agree with that as well.

 

I'm also going to wait for the more of the others in this thread to respond before responding again. 

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by UltraAlt

[Dacy]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

I believe that if it isn't in the AE itself then it will be just as dismissed as the base listing spreadsheet.

Only the elite will use it, so what's the point.

 

 I did come back to see because you replied. See this? This use of "elite" and your repeated claims that the base building community is "elite" are hurtful. I know a few people 'dismissed" the directory, but it's a valuable reference, and until such time as we have something in game to use, it's all we have. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. I can't program the game, I can't get the devs to value the things I value, so I do what I can, and it feels really antagonistic when you keep putting it down. Even if the directory wasn't even my idea, I think it has value. Of course, maybe you don't realize how often I used to get asked, "hey what's the code for such and such base", so maybe you don't realize how often people DO use it. I wish there was another alternative, but right now, we improved what was there by updating and correcting it and making it so other players can't mess with entries that aren't theirs, and that's all we can do. As for the base building community being "elite", also hurtful. Different builders have different standards for themselves, and some have very high levels of expertise and skill, but it's not an exclusive elite club; no one looks down on those who do not do as much or have less skill.  I help beginners all the time and all are welcome, and I encourage (and see) builders helping each other. I have never dissed someone's base for not being up to some imagined standard (or at all, honestly, there is no reason to do that!) Building is the marriage of imagination, perseverance, and practice. It's not some unattainable status that should be seen as exclusive, "elite". Do contests only award to the bases judged as best by standards that have to be set in order for it to be a contest? Yes. And that is why I said, contests have problems. Because there are lots of great bases out there, but in a contest, winners are limited. And I bet there are lots of great stories out there, but if you have a contest, winners will be limited. And then you'll get people complaining about how the AE people are "elite".  But contests do open the doors for more people to be exposed to whatever the contest is about. More bases are toured. More stories are looked at. If you don't find some way to expose people, then you truly do have just the "elite" few who have managed to get people to their stories or bases, and the material is good enough that word of mouth does its work. But in my experience, only a few things will earn recognition like this, and authors, like builders, crave recognition. I do not know anyone who has written or built anything who does not want someone to come see or play what they've done. Hence, this dilemma. How to get that word out.

 

I can only go by my experience, and my experience is, the more methods you use to get the word out, the more people will hear. Forums, discord, reference aids like a directory, streamers, YouTube, other social media sources, server leaders, posters, and announcements on General. Each of these will reach a portion of your audience that the others will not. Contests and giveaways will perk the interest of some; Tanker Tuesday type events will bring in others, but the more avenues, the better.

 

Your description of what someone has to do to find a story driven arc (with no promises of quality) are a perfect example of why I was recommending a directory. First of all, someone would have had to put those tags on their story. "Story driven arc" can also refer to a story created for a specific role play, so there's that overlap. It just would be nice to have a reference, with a better interface, was all I was saying. It's also a hella work, so, yeah. Not ideal. Neither, as you illustrate, is the interface.

 

My itemization of uses of the AE were not in order of most use. Obviously. It was just a list.

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

It would be a disservice not to realize that around 1/2 of the community is only playing 50s (or in the process of power-leveling to 50). 

Which means 1/2 are not. Isn't it a disservice not to also include them in what is written? Especially since they are the ones most likely to be interested in the story. But anyway. Enough. 🙂 I talk too much. Got stuff to do...

 

[UltraAlt]

34 minutes ago, Dacy said:

This use of "elite" and your repeated claims that the base building community is "elite" are hurtful.

 

I wanted to hold off replaying, but this is about my comment more than about this thread.

 

I apologize if it hurts your feelings, but seemed to me that the Base Building Community wasn't for the average base builder.

You didn't use the term "elite" but you used other terms that pointed toward that meaning.

I did use that term because that was how I felt and why I step out of that areana.

You and Easter Bunny were the Community Reps and the two of you were making the calls for that Community.

I said my peace and I left. I didn't feel like my base building was to the "level expected" to be able to participate.

That's how I felt.

 

In reference to the elite in the case, the system AE system is already convoluted as you have pointed out.

Making a spreadsheet somewhere with "approved" or "confirmed" story arcs somewhere would not be within each reach of the community either. It would have the be referenced in some locked thread here and/or on the wiki and people would have to go looking for it rather than it being in the game as easily accessible.

 

Who would get to decide what is on the spreadsheet and who would access it?

I'm assuming it would be mostly accessed by the players putting things on the list as most other players wouldn't even know it was there.

 

That is why I suggested the in-game badges and the AE - it is in the interface; and why I suggested the "Tanker Tuesday" model as it promotes Story Arc Missions.

 

We bump heads. That's fine. We are both outspoken, and I don't think either one of us should stop being outspoken.

In the end, I think our collision brings thing to light for other people.

I don't consider you to be attacking me. You shouldn't consider me to be attacking you.

 

I'm a Jack-of-All Trades and Master of none.

I'm not trying to be "the best"; I'm just trying to have fun and interact with people.

[ZamuelNow]

Scrapped my original comment.

 

Ugh, may take me until the weekend to reply because there's a mix of valid points that need addressing and I have work in the morning.

[TerroirNoir2]

Oh dear God what have I done?

 

Err... anyway. I don't have a directory. The nearest thing I have are these: 

 

And the continuation:

 

Nicely broken up by our friend @Zhym here:

 

HOWEVER...IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS FOR SOME OF THE ABOVE THEN TRY THIS:

 

 

 

Lots of AE writers post a blurb for their work here in the Mission Architect section but (correct me if I'm wrong) so far I've only seen @Darmian do this.  And I figure this sort a thing would fit into a directory reasonably well.

 

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

Lots of AE writers post a blurb for their work here in the Mission Architect section but (correct me if I'm wrong) so far I've only seen @Darmian do this.  And I figure this sort a thing would fit into a directory reasonably well.

 

There are several that post about others' arcs here, but they do not do directories of their works.

 

If it is a forum listing that includes everyone arcs, it should be updated in the main posts that would be thumbtacked. Submissions could be replied and then whomever posted the initial post would move the new submissions into the first post on that thumbtacked listing of story arcs.

 

I would suggest that it is titled as "AE Story Arcs" or something like that and that have a listing of story arcs by creator in alphabetical order by arc creator.

I think it would be good to suggest creators that post submissions to the list include the keywords and tags (listing this at the top of the post so those looking at the post immediately know what they are looking at as they read through the listing".

 

The listing information already done? It should be easy enough to copy-and-paste that information into the new main combined listing.

 

For myself, I just want to see people's story arcs get some publicity so that they will be played.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2024 by UltraAlt
correct to theirs to others' (was rushing to finish)

[cranebump]

I've created 50 arcs. I don't know where that places me numerically, but I have to figure I'm in the upper quarter somewhere (which is as much a testament to how much free time I used to have versus now). As an exclusively SFMA scripter, I can only comment on my own creation conceits. To wit:

• Except for a couple of attempts at a Task Force style story, I have scripted only for soloists. That's who I assume is doing most of the AE play. That's what I test for. Which means I'm never 100% certain how things will go when a team gives things a shot. I also assume that the typical soloist (probably with attuned IOs), and is being exemplared down. They've done the game. They're looking for something else.
• AT matters. Some toons will blast right through a set of customs. Some will fall down before stock enemies. You can never truly know for sure how things will go, unless you get feedback (which I have, and am thankful for). I don't test for every AT. I usually test with a tank and a squishie. Which means some players will have good experiences, and others won't. 
• I can do story all damned day. A lot of scripters can. But the AE can't always execute exactly what I want, however. I don't have tools for fine placement of baddies, or text appearing on the screen, or enemies/allies that TP out. There are no cut scenes. You have a limited amount of text (which, even if you use it, can be more than anyone wants to read). In short, it's really hard to not only tell a good story with memorable NPCs/events, but also to create mechanically clean execution of said story (much less novel execution). So you end up taking the path of water, telling the best story the mechanism can allow. In some ways this is a good thing. In other ways, it's frustrating.

Because of the factors above, I find myself being very forgiving when I judge anyone's arc. It's just so damned hard to get things competent, much less excellent. And there's a big gulf between those two (see a LOT of the older in-game hero arcs).  

 

A Community Choice award is an excellent idea. If it had some sort of basic criteria, even better (I still don't know what the Devs were looking for when they selected various arcs, including the two I was recognized for). Assuming we agreed to a basic standard, I think a panel would be best to actually judge. There would have to be a reasonable number of nominations for everyone to handle within a given time frame (quarterly, perhaps?). Then there's 2-3 recognized arcs from from the pile. Choices get sent to the Devs. Seal of Approval added. You used to get merits for getting a Dev's Choice, too, back in the day (like 1,000 was it?). So there was incentive beyond just recognition.

 

I don't know how much of this is doable, because, like the Devs, people have lives. I switched employers and lost my cushy 4-day work week. My scripting AND reviewing took a hit. I'm sure others have much tougher schedules, and limited play time. That, to me, is the obstacle. Who wants to dedicate themselves to this aspect of CoH, knowing that a vast majority of folks are there just to bash heads and gain levels? (which is sorta how these games work, right?) It has to be someone (or some someones) who really dig this aspect of the game. That's how you got all the base building support. 

 

Question is: who loves SFMA stuff enough to make it one of their primary focuses?

[Darmian]

3 hours ago, cranebump said:

Question is: who loves SFMA stuff enough to make it one of their primary focuses?

God help me I do BUT...I literally don't have the time to adjudicate someone else's work.  I wish I did.  I USED to but life throws things at you.  I'm thinking this panel of judges would have to be a rotating thing, say a group of 12 and 5 to 6 are cued up for their rotation on judging.  Frankly I'm wondering if an Oscars style thing wouldn't be viable?  Best TF style AE, Best script, Best Villain, Best Comedic AE (no musicals alas).  Whatever.  That last sentence is me spitballing though.

 

(And I agree with nearly 100% of what @cranebump says. I aim for excellence.  And when I don't manage that I try to hide the errors!)

[Clave Dark 5]

Maybe like a book club, anyone can participate, "over the next two weeks, we're playing another dreary and confusing arc from Clave Dark 5 called, simply, Ugh.  You have two weeks to go play and then we'll vote on including it or not." 

 

Hm... That voting of course unfortunately leaves room from developing bad blood, so you'd have to vote in private or something, "the board has decided to recommend SuperSteve's This Rocks Rock for [award]," without going into any posting that negative judgement of "we played Clave's and hated it.' 

 

So maybe that's a bad idea - book clubs don't hand out awards, just talk about what they did or didn't like about the book.  And as a group they generally decide on what book to look at anyways.

[cranebump]

15 hours ago, Darmian said:

(And I agree with nearly 100% of what @cranebump says. I aim for excellence.  And when I don't manage that I try to hide the errors!)

Nearly? 

        (produces moleskin pad, scribbles) 

This will not go down well with the Committee.

[Zhym]

It may just be that the best way of identifying and rewarding good AE story arcs is what we have right now: people posting in this forum, either with reviews or posting about their arcs. 

[ZamuelNow]

So, this will be kinda stream of consciousness.  A lot will be in response to @UltraAlt and @Dacy but not necessarily direct quotes.  I think a lot of things need context to why they're the way they are.  If forced to tldr, I think playing on teams and posting reviews will do the most to boost Mission Architect and while things look bleak, I have faith that the devs will fix at least some things.

 

Before I wall of text, I guess a bit on where I'm coming from.  I joined in I14 with Mission Architect being the thing that finally pushed me to get City of Heroes.  I've had a "review" thread where I helped people fix typos, grammar, and mission flow.  Never been the most prolific AE author but been around pre shutdown.  Only joined Homecoming after the NCSoft announcement.

 

The main benefits to Dev's Choice are showcasing high quality player created missions and giving the players of those missions better rewards than normal AE missions.  Both of these are slightly broken.  For the first, the fall off on rewarding new Dev Choice's makes it feel dead even though people can obviously play already existing missions.  "Is there anything other than farming?"  For the second, it used to be tickets were default and you only got to pick between tickets and standard rewards on Dev Choice.  I was asking myself who made the foolish decision to expand the choice to all missions.  Tickets had an, admittedly minor, effect on farming in that not getting standard drops requires players to alter things to gear up.  Tickets also opened some marketing niches.  Things have been established for a while so changing things back would cause more harm than good, I'm just pointing out that Dev's Choice is technically broken as a concept.  Only slightly, though.  It can still do good but as a holistic solution, not a standalone.

 

The thing about "five missions, level 50 only, Final Destination" when it comes to getting newcomers to try out AE is that it's intimidating.  It can be intimidating to ME and I've got experience with the system.  There's this behemoth in front of you, advertising that it's part of a long series, and you have no idea if it's any good or if it's good but not to your tastes.  Not everyone wants to play their 50s to the exclusion of everything else.  Mid size and smaller arcs have their place and are better introductions to the system. But all of these have reasons.  Some people want to play at 50 and don't want to lose those powers exemplaring down.  Some arcs are long because the author had a ton of ideas (though they need to watch for bloat).  Villain and Praetorian arcs stem from feeling there's gaps in the official game (but countered by the high number of hero only players).

 

While there are outliers, I think a lot of people want difficulty similar to rest of the game.  Annoyingly, that's kinda difficult.  The damage and debuff numbers on custom critters are often higher than other at level enemies.  And thanks to the farmers, we have to take more custom powers than we used to for full rewards.  There are ways to mitigate this for balanced arcs but it takes a delicate touch.  What doesn't help is the difficulty of planning around varied player builds.  Someone with a min-max build can skew things for more lightly built players.

 

As far as the four types of arcs in the system, there's actually five and I think that fifth one is actually the most populous--a quick test out of curiosity or for badges that was left in the system instead of being deleted.  There's a graveyard of them but you don't notice since they have few to no ratings.  Honestly, I think most story writers wouldn't even bat an eye at farms if there weren't so many and farmers just collected around a few good ones.

 

The thing about a Tanker Tuesday type event is that it's a great idea...and we did something similar pre shutdown.  Not seeing a regular AE group was the thing that most shocked me when joining Homecoming.  Actually running arcs gets people talking about the arc and builds memories among those who attended.  So...I guess I'll try to be the change I want to see.  I've started putting out feelers to see when other things are running so I don't try to run at the same as a MSR or other large event.

 

In looking to the future, I think being specific about needed map fixes to the devs may be the way forward.  The I27p7 fixes were a ray of hope but it required being specific with /loc coordinates.  I think the devs are (mostly) sympathetic to the plight of Mission Architect but I'm not sure if any have their fingers on the pulse of the community.  Granted, it hasn't felt like a community in a while.

[ZamuelNow]

While Dev's Choice is obviously awarded by the developers and mods, I'm curious about something: Just what would people use as criteria if they were the ones awarding Dev's Choice status?

[cranebump]

It's entirely subjective, but I'd go mainly with: an interesting story and characters, well-edited, designed and constructed with care. That said, I find myself admiring all sorts of arcs for different reasons. 

[Jiro Ito]

There's two pieces to it.  One is objective requirements like spelling and grammar, consistent mission levels and storyline, complete custom characters and objects, overall polish.  The second piece is going to be the subjective stuff, like did the mechanics appeal to me, did I like the story, were the characters and setting appealing enough to me that I could overlook the limitations of AE, etc.

[UltraAlt]

On 1/3/2025 at 5:13 PM, ZamuelNow said:

While Dev's Choice is obviously awarded by the developers and mods, I'm curious about something: Just what would people use as criteria if they were the ones awarding Dev's Choice status?

 

If we are only going to stick with the two distinguishers; Hall Of Fame and Dev's Choice...

We have to admit to ourselves that Hall of Fame is for farms. In general, these are the only AE missions that get the level of play required to achieve Hall of Fame.

Dev's Choice is supposed to be for actual non-farm, story missions.

 

So the only real distinguisher that stands out for a random player with little or no experience with the AE - And let's face it, that is most of the community - is the Fall of Fame and Dev's Choice markers. In general players avoid the AE other than to farm. And, as @Dacy pointed out, that is because it is hard to find non-farm missions and ones that can be used through leveling (non-level 50 missions). 

 

I believe - at this point - that DEV's Choice should no longer only be for what harsh and, I believe, some abusive critics to be absolutely perfectly crafted gems of literature.

This kind of public ridicule of someone's work will dissuade them from even bothering.

 

Is the point of the DEV's Choice an elitist goal for a small in the inner circle of the Mission-crafting community or is it to highlight story arcs versus farming arcs?

If it is an elitist goal, then I don't support anything to do with it.

 

If we are working to use DEV's Choice to help promote the AE for non-farming purposes by using it to denote fun, exciting, different, and/or leveling content, then I'm for supporting those criteria.

Is it fun?

Is it funny?

Is it exciting?

Is it different?

Is it leveling content?

 

Now Fun, Funny, and Exciting are relative to the participant. One person's fun is ruined if they see a spelling or grammatical error. One person's excitement can be related to the mission being different or the story being intriguing ... to them. Humor is relative to the state of mind of the observer.

 

If the goal is to be more inclusive, it must be more accepting and allow development of skills over time. If someone writes a decent mission, it should be promoted in order to promote the creator to work on more missions. Skill develops over time. Destroying someone's fun in crafting missions is driving people away from the AE instead of promoting it.

 

It appears that there are far too few that that want to be involved in the mission-crafting community even bother with the DEV's choice.

The Elitism has already driven away those that would participate if the goal was truly to tell stories, provide alternate content for leveling, and to use the DEV's Choice to make it easier to find leveling story content in the AE.

 

It only takes on reply to prove this ...

 

On 1/4/2025 at 2:08 AM, Jiro Ito said:

One is objective requirements like spelling and grammar, consistent mission levels and storyline, complete custom characters and objects, overall polish.

 

And it comes from someone that indicates that they have already won 3.

 

Yet again it seems to come down to "Let the elites pat themselves on the back".

 

I was all for promoting the crafting of story missions in the AE. This appears to have nothing to do with that.

There is a steep learning curve and the game doesn't proved in-game spell check nor grammar check. 

 

Most writing from the Pulps of the 20's and 30's would fail based on the kind of stringent criteria that some one to impose upon AE mission arcs.

Works that are considered today to be "classics" to genre communities. Are they perfect? No. Are they fun to read - apparently, many people think so.

Of course, critics rip them apart.

 

When a critic feels that they have to rip something apart, they generally aren't really talented enough to generate their own works, think they they are superior, and/or don't want competition. Obviously, were are in an environment where the biggest critics fall into the later two distinctions.

 

In my casuals strolls through the AE looking for content to play with friends, I'm not looking for missions marked as DEVs choice. The ones that I find fun to play don't get DEV's Choice awards anyway.

 

This is a game based on comic books. Apparently, that fact has gone over the heads of what appears to be the "core" AE mission-crafting community.

 

And again, it is come down to, "we want a reward for the elites because we consider ourselves to be the elites" instead of invigorating others to take their time to craft non-farming missions and develop their skills over time by continuing to create more story arcs (If you read this and think you are limited to 3, simply contact a GM and ask for more slots once you have filled 3, you will get them in most cases ... as far as I can tell)

[ZamuelNow]

You confuse me.  I feel almost like I tripped over some already existing squabble.

[Police Woman]

On 1/3/2025 at 5:13 PM, ZamuelNow said:

While Dev's Choice is obviously awarded by the developers and mods, I'm curious about something: Just what would people use as criteria if they were the ones awarding Dev's Choice status?

 

Answering this hypothetical, I’d say my criteria would be:

 

1. There has to be a story, with a beginning, middle and end.
2. The story should make sense (it can be magical/superhero/sci fi, but whatever's happening should still make sense)
3. The story should make me care about what happens, or make me feel some kind of way (whether happy, sad, amused, or horrified)
4. The game mechanics should not be tedious (e.g. forcing me to search huge maps repeatedly, defeat all on a huge map, collect 50 items, etc.)
5. The game balance should not overpower or outright murder my character (e.g. multiple ambushes at low level, deadly custom characters, or unkillable AVs)

 

Extra credit for clever writing or presentation.

Edited January 6 by Police Woman

[cranebump]

3 hours ago, ZamuelNow said:

You confuse me.  I feel almost like I tripped over some already existing squabble.

There isn’t, but it sure seems like someone wants to start one.

 

As far as what the original Devs looked for, it’s beyond me. There’s an eclectic range of arcs that were recognized (including more than a few that aren’t “literary gems”). It really comes down to who’s doing the judging, I think. 
 

Whatever the case, anyone who creates more than a few mishes isn’t doing it for an award. They’re doing it because they like doing it. They’ll continue to do it whether they receive a pat on the ass or not. So I’m not sure that formal awards will encourage anyone to dive into the design pool.
 

That said, if we are considering basic, uniform expectations, @Police Woman’s criteria are pretty solid. If you expect people to take their valuable time to play your arc, it’s a reasonable expectation that you spent some time and effort to make it worth their while. If you’re doing things that unduly frustrate a large proportion of your audience (like having a shit-ton of distracting typos), you’re doing something wrong. Most of what’s on PWs list covers the common frustrations.

Edited January 7 by cranebump

[Clave Dark 5]

3 hours ago, Police Woman said:

1. The game mechanics should not be tedious (e.g. forcing me to search huge maps repeatedly, defeat all on a huge map, collect 50 items, etc.)

That alone would disqualify some of the in-game stories ha ha

 

I'm for a fairly lax overall approach: following the usual rules for film critique (I forget who coined these) it's

1. What was this story attempting to do?
2. Did it do that?
3. Was it worth doing?

Point 3 there is obviously the most subjective and where a critic can really live or die, so we could even ignore that and just got with 1 and 2, because just about anything above barely-above-Radio-missions-quality is already a lot of work in this janky system.  Plus, hey, would still beat doing more PI radios right?

[Raikao]

To be honest a curated list by a single person is all I'd want personally. I would just like to play interesting stories. Things that are fun, novel, have interesting goons to beat up or what have you. A typo here and there is fine, but the problem is there is no quality control in the AE system except rating, so if I start a story arc with no ratings it could be anything ranging from great, to abysmal, or even worse. someone's character specific vanity rp project I have no connection with, that was meant for their friend to enjoy.

 

It doesn't have to about "the best" or anything, just a base standard. A list of AE missions that "aren't trash" with 2 lines on "how much reading is there" and "how difficult / what level is it for" and we're good to go. Surely someone has done that :O

[Dacy]

And I am lured back here, could be because the topic is active again, could be because I heard my name, and I actually have a few minutes of time where I can sit and write (rare these last few weeks!). I like what Raikao said about simply a list of "not trash". Trouble is, what are the determining factors for that, and who decides? Some (myself included) would prefer basic grammar and spelling be adhered to. Does that mean it needs to be perfect? No, but grammar and spelling aid in making writing more understandable, and even if that does not guarantee clarity, it does help. Some authors (including book authors) need an editor to make their words make the most sense and convey the story clearly, and we have no such level of publication here. It's all self published. Truthfully, I've seen stories that were interesting and deserved to be told but were very difficult to comprehend due to problems the writer had with, well, writing.  Unfortunately, not every creatively sound idea gets conveyed in a way that others can really enjoy.

 

There's probably a market for those that are GOOD at working out the AE editor and making it do what they want it to do, and those that are good at writing down the interactive dialogue side of things, to use their knowledge to help those that have the ideas, but no skill in figuring out how to translate that into an AE arc, like those of us who are skilled with the base editor use our knowledge to translate another's idea into reality, and for much the same reason. Either people have not figured out how to use the editor to the degree that is required to do what they want to do, or they have a limitation that is keeping their vision from being realized in the way they desire. I think there are two limiting factors in producing good stories here: one is, people who want to play them have more or less given up wading through the farms and dreck to try to find stories worth playing, and this probably discourages people from creating them, as has been discussed at length here. The other is, like the base editor, the AE editor can be tricky to figure out completely. Balancing custom creatures can be difficult, and once you get the story published...you probably can't get many people to play it. All of that is plain discouraging to people, I think.

 

But back to the idea of a list. The idea behind this is simple and clear and seems self-evident, really. However, I know from painful experience, this is unfortunately not something that would be simple to do, and will probably blow up in the face of anyone who tries it.  That's because no one wants to hear that their story doesn't rate being on the list. Pointing fingers, cries of favoritism or elitism, or whatever "ism" you think is against you waits for anyone with the guts to start such a list. Not that such a list wouldn't be a great thing to have, and there is always the possibility that people whose stories aren't included due to quality issues will, instead of making a fuss, take a look at how they could improve their work. Experience tells me that there won't be a lot of those, but there will be some.

 

Perhaps that is where an out of game directory could be of some use. Only people interested in having their stories be available to the public can submit, but instead of automatic entry, the story is played and evaluated. No huge lofty "oh this is a story worthy of a Dev's Choice" or other award, but merely, does it tell a story, does it make sense, and perhaps, check the author's categorizations to be sure they are accurate, and have evaluator's ratings attached anonymously, as long as there was a group of evaluators without a personal agenda with the author. However, this would demand a great deal of time from those willing to play the stories and decide if the story could be in the directory.  I am not advocating this, it's just a thought; do with it as you will. But it would have the effect of separating the stories from the farms, and making sure that only the stories that make sense and are complete and are intended for general play (not someone's personal RP project) are listed.

[Clave Dark 5]

But back to the idea of a list. The idea behind this is simple and clear and seems self-evident, really. However, I know from painful experience, this is unfortunately not something that would be simple to do, and will probably blow up in the face of anyone who tries it. 

 

@cranebump is standing right over there, Dacy.   I mean, sure, they've caught flack but...