Will Regen ever be reworked?

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

To be fair though, if he can solo the mobs of an ITF at +4/x8, I would be slightly impressed since those mobs can floor your defense to nothing in no time. I would be even more impressed if he could solo the mobs using Werner Rules. (or whatever the name was). So far only my two best built Tanks can handle the mobs using those rules. If he could solo those mobs, I would be forced to eat a bit of crow.

What are the Werner Rules?

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Are you not just testing how much pool def you can stack?

 

With SO's. His point is that he can be far more efficient and survivable as an SR with SO's than Regen could ever dream to be under the same rules. Once upon a time, it would have been just the opposite. Regen went from being one of the most powerful to the least desired in a blink of a nerf bat...and that nerf has stuck ever since then.

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

What are the Werner Rules?

Mobs buffed, no inspirations, no temp powers and a few other rules that I can't remember off hand. It's been a few months since I have ran it solo using those rules.

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

With SO's. His point is that he can be far more efficient and survivable as an SR with SO's than Regen could ever dream to be under the same rules. Once upon a time, it would have been just the opposite. Regen went from being one of the most powerful to the least desired in a blink of a nerf bat...and that nerf has stuck ever since then.

My point is, if you want to go around chiding people with arbitrary qualifiers for accomplishments, it can be turned around against you.

 

How about only armor powers. No Fighting pool or combat jumping/epic armor powers/etc. How about that?

Edited January 28, 2022 by Naraka

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Mobs buffed, no inspirations, no temp powers and a few other rules that I can't remember off hand. It's been a few months since I have ran it solo using those rules.

Oof. I could probably do no inspirations if really careful but no further than that.

 

I know you guys like to paint me as some uber elite, but I’m too casual a player for that.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

My point is, if you want to go around chiding people with arbitrary qualifiers for accomplishments, it can be turned around against you.

 

How about only armor powers. No Fighting pool or combat jumping/epic armor powers/etc. How about that?

 

That would be gimping Regen equally and would remain a fair comparison as far as I am concerned.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Are you not just testing how much pool def you can stack?

 

Ok, let's do it with no pools in use at all. Course, my fire/regen brute is sure as hell going tough/weave/maneuvers/tactics.

 

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m genuinely puzzled by all the comments about T5 pool powers. I like those on occasion just for variety (and I love Enflame so end up with Rune often) but I thought Speed/Leaping/Fighting/Leadership was still definitively the optimal meta. With Flight as the most popular alternative.

 

I use Rune on my squishies often. Mez protection and a get out of debt free card are nice. Arcane Bolt is amazing on controllers. Gotta love triple damage. But I do point to many of the T5s as "lookit here, this is part of the power creep issue." And, yes, I've seen some very high end builds utilizing multiple T5s in sequence to maintain insane levels of mitigation.

[Solarverse]

Just now, arcane said:

Oof. I could probably do no inspirations if really careful but no further than that.

 

I know you guys like to paint me as some uber elite, but I’m too casual a player for that.

 

Yeah, it's no joke, man. I wouldn't expect you to do that to prove your point though, that's a pretty tough challenge. Like I said, so far I only have 2 Tanks who can do it. I tried it on my unkillable Elec/Elec Stalker and got owned. Even my WP/Energy Tank had a really tough time and he is pretty much a God, I have to do a lot of jumping around to avoid death on him. His build is actually in my sig for comparison. The only two Tanks that I have who can handle them just straight Tanking the mobs is my Ice/Ice Tank and my Invuln/SS Tank. All other attempts with anything else have been futile.

[Naraka]

6 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

That would be gimping Regen equally and would remain a fair comparison as far as I am concerned.

Lol I think you're being overly critical of Regen there. It's no secret that taking away the ability to stack def on SR will hurt it more than Regen. Removing 12% def from Regen and 12%def from SR is not the same.

 

I wasn't even being serious but the audacity to make the statement you did? Lol

Edited January 28, 2022 by Naraka

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Naraka said:

Lol I think you're being overly critical of Regen there. It's no secret that taking away the ability to stack def on SR will hurt it more than Regen. Removing 12% def from Regen and 12%def from SR is not the same.

 

I wasn't even being serious but the audacity to make the statement you did? Lol

 

Elude is up a little over a third of the time with 3 recreds and brings SR up to 75.42% to MRA. Going purely primary/secondary, all other power choices become junk, making sure nothing is chosen that might passively increase mitigation, I would, of course, have Elude in the build.

 

What does regen provide with those same rules?

 

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Elude is up a little over a third of the time with 3 recreds and brings SR up to 75.42% to MRA. Going purely primary/secondary, all other power choices become junk, making sure nothing is chosen that might passively increase mitigation, I would, of course, have Elude in the build.

 

What does regen provide with those same rules?

 

I'm not sure what you're asking, exactly, but with those same rules, make sure to take Revive too and take death and travel into the equation.

[arcane]

18 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Yeah, it's no joke, man. I wouldn't expect you to do that to prove your point though, that's a pretty tough challenge. Like I said, so far I only have 2 Tanks who can do it. I tried it on my unkillable Elec/Elec Stalker and got owned. Even my WP/Energy Tank had a really tough time and he is pretty much a God, I have to do a lot of jumping around to avoid death on him. His build is actually in my sig for comparison. The only two Tanks that I have who can handle them just straight Tanking the mobs is my Ice/Ice Tank and my Invuln/SS Tank. All other attempts with anything else have been futile.

I wish y’all had some simpler tests for a lazy guy like me. Here’s a thought:

 

I’d be like 10x more ready and willing to prove some basic solo feats with my /regen’s brute if, say, all you needed to see was me doing the first two ITF missions without inspirations. The inclusion of bigass multi-AV fights adds a layer of uncertainty that makes it far more daunting. Like, my SR tankers could probably even deal with buffed enemies, but the AV’s are too much of a slog to kill. I primarily only “enjoy” soloing AV’s on support/trollers personally. Fighting the regen is just no fun.

 

I don’t know about y’alls standards, but beating down those nictus mobs without using insps is proof enough of my character’s mitigation without bringing giant bags of HP into it.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What does regen provide with those same rules?

 

Nevermind. I already know.

Base regen of 31.75hp/sec

Reconstruction healing every 30 seconds for a bit less than half of base HP.

Dull Pain has a 64.7 sec downtime.

Instant healing up around 1/4 of the time.

14.63 resist to all.

MoG up 1/8 of the time.

 

[Erratic1]

37 minutes ago, Naraka said:

If I'm not mistaken, Elec armor toggles are not as cheap as, say Dark Armor. Couple that with an early damage aura and you end up with it being cheaper to run DA early on than Elec.

 

Dark Armor is infamous for its toggle costs. Not sure anything comes close.

 

Electric Armor's toggle costs are:

• 0.21/s

1. Static Shield

• 0.26/s

1.  Charged Armor
2. Conductive Shield

• 0.52/s

1. Lightning Field

 

Dark Armor's toggle costs are:

• 0.08/s

1. Oppressive Gloom

• 0.21/s

1. Dark Embrace
2. Murky Cloud
3. Obsidian Shield

• 0.26/s

1. Cloak of Darkness

• 0.52/s

1. Death Shroud

Full activation of Dark Armor's toggles costs 1.48/s whereas Electric Armor's full activation is 1.25/s.

 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

Yeah, Savage had an END discount but it also has a penalty built in as well. Sure, you can just not use your blood stacks or only expend them when their not full but then you're looking at fluctuating END discounts. Probably not something to rely on... It's only a moderate to minor bonus.

 

You can use them but you of course lose the benefit when you do. It is up to you however when you do. I figured it for me when it was worth holding onto the bonus and when it was worth consuming stacks. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, Naraka said:

 

I think important factors of leveling a melee character is kill speed, cc/debuff mitigation and animation speed. I feel Savage isn't that bad but it might be a bad fit for Elec armor to start off. I'm sure it gets better when you start proccing it later on but I was making an example of the set early/mid level.

 

I have yet to proc bomb a character though I am considering doing so on my Elec/Rad tanker. Did I mention that Rad is not kind to endurance? I must admit I seriously questioned in his mid-to-late 30s if I wanted to continue to work on the character. The trick was getting Energize to the point of being close enough to permanent that Power Sink would cover the portion of time when it wasn't.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’d be like 10x more ready and willing to prove some basic solo feats with my /regen’s brute if, say, all you needed to see was me doing the first two ITF missions without inspirations.

 

Clear all first two missions, no insps, no temps, no click accolades, no faceplants, +4/x8 w/ bosses, including the seafood buffet at end of 1st mish. Grab the time. If a faceplant occurs, please share with us where it happened. Also please include your Mids build so that we can learn what we're doing wrong. That work?

 

Edit: Your call if you want to use click incarnates or not.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[ForeverLaxx]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

no faceplants

I hesitate to get into the middle of this ePeen slapfight, but I'm pretty sure that sets which contained a self-rez were intended to use them as part of their suite of "defenses." By that I mean, a Regen character dying, but using Revive to get back in the fight, is how it's supposed to work.

 

Whether that's a good thing or not is entirely up to interpretation, but putting a "no deaths" stipulation against a set that, at least on paper, is designed to shrug off a faceplant doesn't seem fair to me.

 

All that said, Regen needs help. I like the Sentinel version, but I've seen more than a few people, both on the forums and in-game, that do not want Sentinel's version for their melee characters. Most of them don't like the Absorb mechanic.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Clear all first two missions, no insps, no temps, no click accolades, no faceplants, +4/x8 w/ bosses, including the seafood buffet at end of 1st mish. Grab the time. If a faceplant occurs, please share with us where it happened. Also please include your Mids build so that we can learn what we're doing wrong. That work?

 

Edit: Your call if you want to use click incarnates or not.

THAT I can do. Minus the Mids software I don’t have; but I can take screenshots of the build. 

 

I can’t guarantee a dope time, but it sounds like a reasonably fun use of my time compared to the AV fights. 

[Solarverse]

Just now, Naraka said:

Bro, you called me a snide ass before anything. Calling out an audacious statement is, at best, a debatable topic. If what you said (at face value) what audacious, then explain. I explained why it was and you are over here getting emotional and saying I'm conformational. 

 

Both those are true but debating words isn't against the rules lol also, in the quoted post of mine, I didn't mean "moderate" but rather "moderated". I fixed it 

 

 

 

I'm not sure how you take somebody attaching "you have the audacity" to you, but when somebody attaches it to me, I take it the way it reads, it's like saying that you think that I know what I am saying is bull, but I am saying it anyway, in other words, calling me a liar. It's a very passive aggressive statement and I have never been one to mince words and I can't stand passive aggressive people. So if you didn't mean it in that way, that I owe you an apology, but if this is the way you meant it, then my responses stand, moderated or not.

[arcane]

Just now, ForeverLaxx said:

I hesitate to get into the middle of this ePeen slapfight, but I'm pretty sure that sets which contained a self-rez were intended to use them as part of their suite of "defenses." By that I mean, a Regen character dying, but using Revive to get back in the fight, is how it's supposed to work.

 

Whether that's a good thing or not is entirely up to interpretation, but putting a "no deaths" stipulation against a set that, at least on paper, is designed to shrug off a faceplant doesn't seem fair to me.

 

All that said, Regen needs help. I like the Sentinel version, but I've seen more than a few people, both on the forums and in-game, that do not want Sentinel's version for their melee characters. Most of them don't like the Absorb mechanic.

It’s ok in context though, because I don’t have Revive 🙂

[Solarverse]

Just now, arcane said:

It’s ok in context though, because I don’t have Revive 🙂

 

Believe it or not, I'm actually rooting for ya.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

It’s ok in context though, because I don’t have Revive 🙂

Well, bear in mind that it's a design philosophy before IOs were considered mandatory by the majority of players. Obviously if you never die, you don't need Revive. If you're running SOs only, which the set was built around from the beginning, you might want to consider it.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I hesitate to get into the middle of this ePeen slapfight, but I'm pretty sure that sets which contained a self-rez were intended to use them as part of their suite of "defenses." By that I mean, a Regen character dying, but using Revive to get back in the fight, is how it's supposed to work.

 

Pretty sure not dying is how one compares mitigation. Stating that a set provides equivalent mitigation because it can easily get up every time its mitigation fails seems... odd.

[arcane]

I might be able to do it without faceplanting, but I have a strong suspicion the aforementioned mission 1 seafood horde is going to force me to run away and back at the very least. Considering the last couple ITF’s I did, it was whenever multiple nictus mobs were aggro’d solo in mission 2 that I started looking at my insp tray.

 

I will probably have Burnout and a fresh Ageless Radial reserved for that moment.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Naraka]

32 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Dark Armor is infamous for its toggle costs. Not sure anything comes close.

 

Electric Armor's toggle costs are:

• 0.21/s

1. Static Shield

• 0.26/s

1.  Charged Armor
2. Conductive Shield

• 0.52/s

1. Lightning Field

 

Dark Armor's toggle costs are:

• 0.08/s

1. Oppressive Gloom

• 0.21/s

1. Dark Embrace
2. Murky Cloud
3. Obsidian Shield

• 0.26/s

1. Cloak of Darkness

• 0.52/s

1. Death Shroud

Full activation of Dark Armor's toggles costs 1.48/s whereas Electric Armor's full activation is 1.25/s.

 

 

 

 

You can use them but you of course lose the benefit when you do. It is up to you however when you do. I figured it for me when it was worth holding onto the bonus and when it was worth consuming stacks. 

 

 

 

I have yet to proc bomb a character though I am considering doing so on my Elec/Rad tanker. Did I mention that Rad is not kind to endurance? I must admit I seriously questioned in his mid-to-late 30s if I wanted to continue to work on the character. The trick was getting Energize to the point of being close enough to permanent that Power Sink would cover the portion of time when it wasn't.

 

Yeah, my comparison was mainly on the route of 1 to 35. Early on, you don't even have the mez toggles on DA and if you do later on, you can turn them off mid fight to reserve END (tactically, you only really need them if you are trying to slow enemies from running). Further still, because of the way the resists are spread, you need to run those 3 toggles on Elec but you can opt to run just what you need on DA.

 

There's also the prospect of ghosts early on in the game. Elec is getting eaten alive.

 

Overall, I think I'm just more experienced with early DA than Elec but having extra tools to stay alive with Elec is good. For DA, you just need END to stay alive lol

Edited January 28, 2022 by Naraka

[ForeverLaxx]

18 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Pretty sure not dying is how one compares mitigation. Stating that a set provides equivalent mitigation because it can easily get up every time its mitigation fails seems... odd.

Consider the sets that have a self-rez, though: Regen, Fire, and Dark. Regen is very reactive, and if you can't out-heal what you're fighting then you're guaranteed to lose to it, which means a self-rez effectively forces enemies to take out 2 of your HP bars to put you down. It's meant to be used not necessarily as mitigation per se, but rather, a second chance once the enemies have "wore themselves out" taking you down the first time. Fire also has low mitigation overall to everything but fire damage and it tries to make up for this by bringing more damage to the table. That includes its own self-rez power; meaning that the set was "designed" to fall in tough fights, but stand back up after nuking the things that defeated it.

 

Dark is a bit of an outlier, at least today. However, back in the day, you had to pick and choose which toggles to run as Dark which meant you weren't always mitigated against everything a mob could do. Since the set has so many toggles, its self-rez stuns foes which gives you time to get the toggle you want back up and running to finish off the weakened spawn.

 

What I'm getting at is that these sets were "balanced" around the idea that their self-rez powers would be utilized. This usually means those sets were meant to be overwhelmed in some circumstances so that they'd have to take their self-rez power and use it in order to keep fighting. It's as much of a defensive tool as Elude or Unstoppable used to be, but they're used after a defeat to keep fighting instead of before a defeat to hopefully outlast the group before your endurance is drained and you die anyway. The game has changed dramatically without these sets being updated to reflect it, but I still feel that "no deaths" for sets literally designed to die as part of their balance is unfair.

Edited January 28, 2022 by ForeverLaxx
grammar