Give all Tanker Primaries Knockback Resistance

[Mr Pierce]

Is there a good reason for certain power sets to not get KB resist at this stage of the game? Dark, Fire, and Electric tanks can have a mag 20 KB protection and still get knocked on their butts against some of the harder AVs in the game. I understand some of the other ATs not getting the KB resistance for these power sets, but I don't see why that is true for any tank. There doesn't seem to be any trade-off for losing this resistance, so why not give it to them? Just a thought.

[Ston]

I agree with this 100%. If KB resist was taken away from Dark, Fire, and Electric because they have tools for offense, then Bio and Rad should get it taken away as well. 

[arcane]

Every set is carefully balanced. Of course they get trade-offs. You can’t even simplify it to “they trade off for offense” like Ston implies above. Real balance considers every last drop of data, right down to damage, debuff resistance, fear protection, you name it. If the devs think Dark, Fire, and Electric are being shorted on the balance equation, I’m sure they will consider this thread.

 

I know they’ve already stated that Fiery Aura will be up for rebalancing eventually since they are going to have to throw it a couple bones the day they finally follow through and fix the broken Burn bug. So maybe this is in the cards.

Edited February 10, 2022 by arcane

[Greycat]

Am I remembering wrong, or is Electric's thing that it has it but you must be in contact with (or very close to) the ground?

[arcane]

Just now, Greycat said:

Am I remembering wrong, or is Electric's thing that it has it but you must be in contact with (or very close to) the ground?

That’s right. I jump around and hate that so prefer to get some KB protection IO’s anyway. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

9 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Am I remembering wrong, or is Electric's thing that it has it but you must be in contact with (or very close to) the ground?

Correct. Grounded has KB protection only if the character is on the ground.

 

To the OP: personally I don't mind tanks being knocked back/down occasionally. You see Superman getting knocked back through buildings all the time. It's just when it happens all the time, repeatedly, ad infinitum (like in GW2) that it's a problem for me.

 

I think that all armor sets should have something they're nearly immune to and something that they have no protection against. Fire and Electric doesn't have enough KB protection for you? Get Combat Jumping and put a KB protection IO in it. Problem solved.

 

I really, really, REALLY don't want the devs to take time coding in something that you already have the ability to fix yourself.

 

TL;DR: Motion denied!

[TheZag]

I wish grounded gave some protection when flying at ground level like maybe half.  My preferred mode of travel is flight.  My foot stomp works when flying near the ground but not grounded.  After i get knocked a few times i turn off fly. 

[Ston]

51 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Correct. Grounded has KB protection only if the character is on the ground.

 

To the OP: personally I don't mind tanks being knocked back/down occasionally. You see Superman getting knocked back through buildings all the time. It's just when it happens all the time, repeatedly, ad infinitum (like in GW2) that it's a problem for me.

 

I think that all armor sets should have something they're nearly immune to and something that they have no protection against. Fire and Electric doesn't have enough KB protection for you? Get Combat Jumping and put a KB protection IO in it. Problem solved.

 

I really, really, REALLY don't want the devs to take time coding in something that you already have the ability to fix yourself.

 

TL;DR: Motion denied!

 

You have to dedicate 12+ slots on Fiery Aura and Dark Armor to resist Lord Recluse's knockback on the MLTF. Rad Armor can make 2 mini-nukes with those slots and still have plenty of KB resist, resistance, absorb, regen, recovery, etc. to be an amazing tanker.  This is incredibly unbalanced and should definitely be changed. Aside from Lord Recluse, there are plenty of attacks in the game that will require more than a couple KB protection slots. These slots are very valuable on armor sets that already have glaring weaknesses.

 

Sure, Fiery Aura has Burn and Fiery Embrace... and Dark Armor has Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom... but are these powers really tradeoffs for KB resistance when you consider the tools their competitors have? 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ston

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

You have to dedicate 12+ slots on Fiery Aura and Dark Armor to resist Lord Recluse's knockback on the MLTF. Rad Armor can make 2 mini-nukes with those slots and still have plenty of KB resist, resistance, absorb, regen, recovery, etc. to be an amazing tanker.  This is incredibly unbalanced and should definitely be changed. 

 

Sure, Fiery Aura has Burn and Fiery Embrace... and Dark Armor has Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom... but are these powers really tradeoffs for KB resistance when you consider the tools their competitors have? 

I don’t think every melee set needs to be capable of easily ignoring Lord Recluse’s shenanigans. He’s easily one of the hardest baddies in the game. How is this a problem. As for the entire rest of the game besides one baddie? 12 pts seems to cover basically everything. That’s three slots. You’re fine.

Edited February 10, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, Ston said:

You have to dedicate 12+ slots on Fiery Aura and Dark Armor to resist Lord Recluse's knockback on the MLTF.

I have to devote a ton of slots on my Invuln tank in order to have enough defense and resistance to psi damage so that Carnies won't wreak me. My Invuln tank also doesn't have nearly as much regen as my Willpower tank has. Should we change that too?

 

If you're having a hard time tanking Lord Recluse on a fire tank maybe use a different tank instead? Different armor sets have different strengths and weaknesses, and that's ok. I disagree with changing it. Not all armor sets should be the same.

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I have to devote a ton of slots on my Invuln tank in order to have enough defense and resistance to psi damage so that Carnies won't wreak me. My Invuln tank also doesn't have nearly as much regen as my Willpower tank has. Should we change that too?

 

If you're having a hard time tanking Lord Recluse on a fire tank maybe use a different tank instead? Different armor sets have different strengths and weaknesses, and that's ok. I disagree with changing it. Not all armor sets should be the same.

Oh yeah, my Invuln definitely spends more slots filling the psi hole than I ever need to fill the KB hole.

 

And, at least before the last round of buffs, LR wrecked my Graniteless Stone Tank too just because of low energy resistance. Using that fight as a standard to balance around is a bit ridiculous.

[Ston]

40 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I have to devote a ton of slots on my Invuln tank in order to have enough defense and resistance to psi damage so that Carnies won't wreak me. My Invuln tank also doesn't have nearly as much regen as my Willpower tank has. Should we change that too?

 

If you're having a hard time tanking Lord Recluse on a fire tank maybe use a different tank instead? Different armor sets have different strengths and weaknesses, and that's ok. I disagree with changing it. Not all armor sets should be the same.

 

22 minutes ago, arcane said:

Oh yeah, my Invuln definitely spends more slots filling the psi hole than I ever need to fill the KB hole.

 

And, at least before the last round of buffs, LR wrecked my Graniteless Stone Tank too just because of low energy resistance. Using that fight as a standard to balance around is a bit ridiculous.

 

I was just using LR as an example of a high mag KB encounter. But what you guys are saying is fair. 

 

I guess knockback is just annoying because of its binary nature. Unless you have 9999% resistance, you either have enough points of KB protection or you don't.. and if you don't then you're going to spend a majority of the fight on your back without being able to do anything. At least when you have low resistance you can click heals, accolades, run away, etc.  Dark Armor and Fiery Aura have their own resistance/debuff weaknesses to worry about on top of getting knocked back. 

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Ston said:

 

 

I was just using LR as an example of a high mag KB encounter. But what you guys are saying is fair. 

 

I guess knockback is just annoying because of its binary nature. Unless you have 9999% resistance, you either have enough points of KB protection or you don't.. and if you don't then you're going to spend a majority of the fight on your back without being able to do anything. At least when you have low resistance you can click heals, accolades, run away, etc.  Dark Armor and Fiery Aura have their own resistance/debuff weaknesses to worry about on top of getting knocked back. 

It does seem a little unfair that everyone else gets pure immunity. Mag 20 protection would be sound more fair and still yield 99.99% same results. But w/e

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Every set is carefully balanced.

 

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

 

No.

 

Also to the OP, no. Not unless all archetypes be given some baseline across the board mez protection.

[arcane]

16 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

 

No.

 

Also to the OP, no. Not unless all archetypes be given some baseline across the board mez protection.

I meant what is legitimately attempted, not how reality works out.

[aethereal]

For anyone unclear: most armor sets have both (VERY HIGH) KB resist and KB protection.  KB resist divides mag of KB, and then the resulting KB mag has your protection subtracted from it, and you're knocked if the final result is above 0.

 

So if you get hit with a mag 10 KB, and you have 100% KB resist and 4 KB protection, you do get knocked with mag 1:  10 / 2 - 4 = 1.

 

But most armor sets have KB resist of 10000%, and then 10 points of KB protection on top of that, meaning that they are theoretically only knocked by a mag 1000 KB (which does not exist in game).

 

Electric Armor has (in Grounded), KB protection (15.something mag on tanks), but no KB resist.  That means that it's immune to KBs 15 and under, but vulnerable to a few very high KBs in the game.  You get KB protection from the common IO sources (BotZ, Overwhelming Force etc), but not resist.  I think Evasive Maneuvers provides some KB resist?

 

The result is that most Tank armors are immune to all KB, Electric is vulnerable to high-mag KB but not other ones, and fire/dark have to build it from scratch and are thus potentially vulnerable to more KB.

[Ukase]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

Every set is carefully balanced.

Rubbish. 

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Rubbish. 

Addressed already, stfu 🙂

[MTeague]

8 hours ago, Mr Pierce said:

Is there a good reason for certain power sets to not get KB resist at this stage of the game? Dark, Fire, and Electric tanks can have a mag 20 KB protection and still get knocked on their butts against some of the harder AVs in the game. I understand some of the other ATs not getting the KB resistance for these power sets, but I don't see why that is true for any tank. There doesn't seem to be any trade-off for losing this resistance, so why not give it to them? Just a thought.

 

Every "armor" powerset was meant to have a weakness.

Every such powerset was meant to team up with a support class who could help mitigate that weakness. 

 

Now, in today's reality, quite a few people want to be 100% independant, "I can solo anything", and nothing is wrong with wanting that.

But the answer that exists today is "If your armor set doesn't include KB resistance, SLOT FOR IT with IO's".

I do not see this as a pressing need requiring changes.

[Ukase]

2 hours ago, Ston said:

 

You have to dedicate 12+ slots on Fiery Aura and Dark Armor to resist Lord Recluse's knockback on the MLTF. Rad Armor can make 2 mini-nukes with those slots and still have plenty of KB resist, resistance, absorb, regen, recovery, etc. to be an amazing tanker.  This is incredibly unbalanced and should definitely be changed. Aside from Lord Recluse, there are plenty of attacks in the game that will require more than a couple KB protection slots. These slots are very valuable on armor sets that already have glaring weaknesses.

 

Sure, Fiery Aura has Burn and Fiery Embrace... and Dark Armor has Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom... but are these powers really tradeoffs for KB resistance when you consider the tools their competitors have? 

On the one hand, I see the point. Not everyone is like me, with different tanks that have different strengths & weaknesses. 
If I am going to tank Recluse, it would never occur to me to bring a fire tank. I mean, it just wouldn't. There are so many other armors that are better suited to the task, so I'd just bring one of those. 
I am curious, how one of my fire/ice tanks would fare, they've got pretty good resists across the board. And ultimately, I'd kite Recluse anyway. (is that still a thing? I think so. It's been ages since I've tanked LR.) And I use Glad Armor in a number of the armors, plus the kb protection, as well as six slotted Overwhelming Force. So, he doesn't get KB'd, except very rarely. Still, I'd love to free up the slots for something different. 
I mean, Fire tanks are fun. In fact, for me, more fun than any of the others. Something about burn that just makes the weaker resists/defense, lack of DDR worth it to me. 
But, not everyone is gonna think of it the way I do. I just wonder..if you re-tool this for Fiery Armor - what's the offset? That's what scares me. If they keep changing things, the games not going to the same game. And that is my concern. 

[Ukase]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Addressed already, stfu 🙂

Um...I don't obey any suggestion with profanity, despite emoticons. Use proper words or you lose the argument. 

[MTeague]

The only 'fix" I would want to see is better on-line documentation as you're choosing an armor set

 

"This powerset includes mtigation vs the following"

"This powerset has low-to-no mitigation vs"

[aethereal]

What is the mag of KB that Recluse does in MLTF?  Most versions of his Spider Smash have a base mag of 18, but I think it's higher in MLTF?

[Ston]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

What is the mag of KB that Recluse does in MLTF?  Most versions of his Spider Smash have a base mag of 18, but I think it's higher in MLTF?

 

A Fiery Aura or Dark Armor tanker will need to dedicate 6+ slots to resist any of these attacks. There's a much longer list of attacks that can be resisted with 5+ slots. This is pretty substantial considering the value an extra slot can bring to a build., let alone 5-10. https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Knockback/Enemies_with_Knockback_Powers

I also think this list is wrong. If you look at MLTF LR's Suppression power details in game, it says 51.93KB. And after applying purple patch to a lvl 54 AV, that gets increased to around 70. Which makes it virtually impossible to resist solo without buffs/inspirations.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Ston

[Lazarillo]

24 minutes ago, Ston said:

I also think this list is wrong. If you look at MLTF LR's Suppression power details in game, it says 51.93KB. And after applying purple patch to a lvl 54 AV, that gets increased to around 70. Which makes it virtually impossible to resist solo without buffs/inspirations.

I mean, bear in mind, that that's assuming you're using Tanker multipliers.  The mag when an NPC uses it will likely be somewhat different.

 

As to the main question, I feel like it's unneeded on the whole, since there are ways to build around it through sets and pools.  Heck, in that regard, it's one of the easiest effects to compensate for.  Compare to 7/11 having no Terrorize protection, nor any way to add it to their build, or a similar number lacking Confuse protection (and only by dipping a couple times into the Leadership pool can a small amount of that be gained).  Or any large number of status holes suffered by most other ATs.  KB protection is one that the game already has plenty of.