How to improve tank damage

[Ukase]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:12 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, so my admittedly limited understanding of procs is that I should slot in accuracy and endurance reduction and then 3 or 4 procs. I shouldn't slot any recharge in the powers themselves as that will lower the proc rate, I should instead work on global recharge.

 

And since the procs fire in reverse order, I should slot a Fury of the Gladiator -resist proc in the last slot. Does that sound right?

 

Also, are any of the Incarnate Interface abilities better than any other as far as extra damage?

Slotting procs can be quite a decent path to increasing damage. 
But anecdotally, the key is to aim for global recharge so that those attacks that are all proc'd up can fire more often. 

When you take a base recharge of 16s...and can get it to fire every 8 to 10 seconds for 800 damage, that may be better than traditional slotting that fires in 6 seconds for only 400 damage. It all depends. And anecdotally, the math behind determining which is optimal is not a great deal of fun for me. I tend to just use unslotters and compare on the fly, rather than rely on mids. 

The easiest path in my brain says Assault from the leadership pool, and aiming for recharge, (and endurance to go along with that) and accuracy - which lends itself to aiming for tactics and/or a kismet 6%. The question though is if you'll have the endurance to handle the extra two toggles. 

Yes, you can increase the damage of a tank - but sometimes, that is just silly. With 1000 slots, maybe just roll a brute. Same resistances, a bit smaller area on the cones, but a higher dps without doing anything special. Nothing you didn't already know, of course. But, it is worth stating. Sometimes, (and I'm no exception) we can find ourselves aiming to take this character we enjoy and turn it into something that another AT would be better at. When we increase damage of any AT...to do this, we have to take from some other attribute. 

It's like chess, in a fashion. If we move a piece to control these certain squares, we've decreased the control over other squares to do this. We'll have to look several moves ahead to see if that's the right play. 

[Sovera]

TF is not the place to go wild with procs since it is the start of the rotation. TF wants maximum recharge and two procs because it's a great place for them regardless.

 

ET on the other hand is the place to go four damage procs since it requires no endurance or recharge (assuming that no masochists are around who want to use slow ET). This change alone can net over 150-200 damage depending on the original slotting. My own Tanker has their ET at 794, for example, where a more typical five-Hectacomb-and-a-Touch-of-Death-proc is at 647.

 

Gaussian in Invincibility is a bit hyperbolic. Double stacks happen but lets not go crazy and say that they happen all the time. With ten mobs in range the chance for Gaussian to go off is about 60% every 10 seconds (assuming ten mobs even fit in a 8y radius). After the initial AoEs and half of that number left it's down to 30%. I prefer it over BU to have control when it goes off (preferably at the start of the fight when there are more enemies around) but others may do as they please, just do so informed.

 

With all said the damage will never catch up to a Brute just like a Brute will not catch up to a Tanker's resilience. For 90% of solo content a Brute will do the same as a Tanker, just faster. For 100% of teaming with any sort of buffs or shields the Brute will be as sturdy as the Tanker. Without buffing (either damage heavy team or just different buffs like a Kin) the Tanker comes back at being sturdier (there are outliers like Rad/Super Strength but it's about the OPness of the combo rather than the AT just like we used to have the Titan Weapons/Bio combo).

[Golden Azrael]

I'll be re-reading this a few times.  (My Invul'/EM Tank is flea infested with Procs.  So much so, I gave up alot of defence.)  My recent Invul/SS build re-addressed the balance in terms of my improving Invul's defensive build whilst being less liberal with procs in SS.  So, I'm a bit further ahead in my understanding of balancing a build in this context.  (Procs are a relatively new thing I've started to include in the last year.  Some times it works great...but if you're not careful with 50+ procs in my Sentinel build...you can end up with unfocused consequences eg. no accuracy...)

 

As for the slow Energy Transfer.  HIts like a MoThUR TruCkA.  And I love it for pure 'show boating' purposes.  It's the 'winding wheel' boxing punch.  Around and around we go...BOMP!

 

Anticipation...then climax.

 

But if you want a quickie (ET)?  That also hurts.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

18 hours ago, Ukase said:

Slotting procs can be quite a decent path to increasing damage. 
But anecdotally, the key is to aim for global recharge so that those attacks that are all proc'd up can fire more often. 
 

 

Yep.  Pushed for the global recharge.  Mobs don't stand on their feet for long.

 

I've thrown out Rage from my power tray.  (Fed up of the crash.  And the double crash when it overlaps with recharge.)

 

How to claw damage back?  Procs.

 

Pushed the global recharge and tried to include a proc in 'most' attacks.  That doubles up if you have 'Change for Negative' from a purple set and A.N Other proc for the 6th slot.

 

I did go crazy in K.O Punch.  Loads of them.  Certainly hurts Warwolves.

 

I even pushed to include some strategic procs in Hand Clap for knockback (down), FFeedback...and even managed to get a damage proc in HClap!  Like wise.  FF in Foot Stomp and a knockdown.

 

I like it.

 

And I'm still capped for Melee and S*L.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

18 hours ago, Ukase said:

Slotting procs can be quite a decent path to increasing damage. 
But anecdotally, the key is to aim for global recharge so that those attacks that are all proc'd up can fire more often. 

When you take a base recharge of 16s...and can get it to fire every 8 to 10 seconds for 800 damage, that may be better than traditional slotting that fires in 6 seconds for only 400 damage. It all depends. And anecdotally, the math behind determining which is optimal is not a great deal of fun for me. I tend to just use unslotters and compare on the fly, rather than rely on mids. 

The easiest path in my brain says Assault from the leadership pool, and aiming for recharge, (and endurance to go along with that) and accuracy - which lends itself to aiming for tactics and/or a kismet 6%. The question though is if you'll have the endurance to handle the extra two toggles. 

Yes, you can increase the damage of a tank - but sometimes, that is just silly. With 1000 slots, maybe just roll a brute. Same resistances, a bit smaller area on the cones, but a higher dps without doing anything special. Nothing you didn't already know, of course. But, it is worth stating. Sometimes, (and I'm no exception) we can find ourselves aiming to take this character we enjoy and turn it into something that another AT would be better at. When we increase damage of any AT...to do this, we have to take from some other attribute. 

It's like chess, in a fashion. If we move a piece to control these certain squares, we've decreased the control over other squares to do this. We'll have to look several moves ahead to see if that's the right play. 

 

Interesting point of view re: where we can sometimes want a certain AT to be 'like' another AT.

 

I've had my years of lamenting Defender damage.  (But it was ridiculous at one point on live.  Pure support, couldn't solo.  Tippy Tappy damage.  End hog.)  There are Defenders who play like Offenders.  (Then you can roll a Corruptor if you must...)  Then roll a blaster and see how damage really works etc.  My biggest beef with my FF/Defender was that I could bubble everyone else with the cool def/insul bubbles but not myself.  Which would have turned me into a Junior Tank with mediocre Range attacks.

 

As for Tanks vs Brutes.  The recent patch clawed damage back and I do like the radiating nature of the attacks (a revelation on a Dark/Dark Tank.)  Personally, I don't think we're done with Tank damage.  (Here we go, here we go...)  *I'd like to see Taunt differentiate itself on Tanks as the master taunter turns into pure intimidation.  Could be procs for fear.  Could be procs for double hit damage for SINGLE attacks.  (Which would allow Brutes to keep their all conquering AOE dps stuff.)  ie.  This plays into Tanks have some combat focus to 'tune into and take out' strategic targets.  I already have a proc in taunt for 'random' here and there damage.  I think this idea could be taken further by HC devs.

 

I enjoyed your chess analogy.

 

Azrael.

[Ukase]

32 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

I've thrown out Rage from my power tray.  (Fed up of the crash.  And the double crash when it overlaps with recharge.)

Last month, I made a couple of SS/Fire brutes. Both with Fold Space, but different objectives for their build. I just couldn't really get the apples to apples comparison I wanted on the Test Server, due to lack of scientific methodology, really, and some randomness with various spawns. 

In any event, one build had burn and foot stomp proc'd out. The other didn't. 

To me, there are two reasons (and only two) to go with SS. Rage, and foot stomp. To not use rage, you might as well give up Foot Stomp and go with something else with a decent AoE - but that's just my thinking. 
When I proc'd Burn and Foot Stomp, (sorry, and Haymaker, too) because the rage crash didn't impact the procs, despite the crash, I was able to fill those 10 seconds with good dps. 

If they ever change how proc's work, I might just have to re-visit SS and delete those characters. But until then - filling up the attack chain with proc'd attacks (and the nice KD mitigation of Foot Stomp) seems like a winner to me. It's a fun combo. 

I can get how some folks don't like rage crash - I certainly don't like it either, but using the KD and filling up the 10 seconds with a few attacks that aren't impacted by the crash seems like an easy fix for superior dps. 

[Golden Azrael]

I hope they keep procs as they are.  It's just the cherry on the top of building.  It rewards good building and it allows a builder to balance defence vs attack to their own choosing.  Building allows builders and lovers of certain ATs to custom build to blur the lines between the ATs (and create contentious forum debates on CoH forums no doubt...)

 

One of the things I really like doing is pushing on the glass ceiling of each AT.  Can you break it?  That's the question.  It's fun trying to find out.  I never thought I'd be able to roll a Defender FF/En that could go toe to toe with +4x8 Council.  But it was the 1st I forged upon the return of CoH HC.  I never thought i'd be able to farm with a fire/fire blaster.  Or range/S*L cap a blaster (junior tank.)  

 

I do take your point about Procs working during the 'Crash.'

 

There are things you can do in that '10 seconds.'  Taunt (proc), Handclap (proc), and sundry over procs.  You can move to the next mob with your taunt aura.  Use your incarnate powers etc.

 

Azrael.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

I've had my years of lamenting Defender damage.  (But it was ridiculous at one point on live.  Pure support, couldn't solo.  Tippy Tappy damage.  End hog.)  There are Defenders who play like Offenders.  (Then you can roll a Corruptor if you must...)  Then roll a blaster and see how damage really works etc.  My biggest beef with my FF/Defender was that I could bubble everyone else with the cool def/insul bubbles but not myself.  Which would have turned me into a Junior Tank with mediocre Range attacks.

 

An original "Offender" here who was also quite good with support. I really wish I still had the screenshot (3 or so computers back) of her standing in the middle of spawn, not getting touched, and using Thunderous Blast (in particular because one of the bad guys is shrinking back like he knows what is coming). The ability of Defenders to solo was heavily predicated on your choice of sets.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Erratic1

[Bill Z Bubba]

Meh to proc builds. Too much reliance on being 50 with ageless. Too much reliance on end rec and acc from other sources. Yea, I see the final numbers, but they'll never fit with my playstyle of 100% efficiency regardless of exemplared level.

[Sovera]

50 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Meh to proc builds. Too much reliance on being 50 with ageless. Too much reliance on end rec and acc from other sources. Yea, I see the final numbers, but they'll never fit with my playstyle of 100% efficiency regardless of exemplared level.

 

That's me and half my builds. Do they work good at 50? Yes. Do I want them to have most their goods and survive Posi 1 ran solo at 0x8 while doing so at a decent clip (under 50 minutes preferably)? Also yes.

 

Do I actually go and solo Posi 1 with a character once having leveled to 50? No 😄

[Clave Dark 5]

13 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Too much reliance on being 50 with ageless.

I really dislike builds like that, relying on an Inc power to save you is a crutch (plus yeah, I do level my characters rather than farm em).  But I do still run some proc builds, or maybe I should say "some proc" builds, I don't go as nuts with them as others seem to.

[Golden Azrael]

20 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

An original "Offender" here who was also quite good with support. I really wish I still had the screenshot (3 or so computers back) of her standing in the middle of spawn, not getting touched, and using Thunderous Blast (in particular because one of the bad guys is shrinking back like he knows what is coming). The ability of Defenders to solo was heavily predicated on your choice of sets.

 

 

 

Was it a Dark Defender?  Rad?

 

Any chance you could re-do the costume from memory?  Show it off in the Cel-Shader thread? 😮

 

I did like duoing with FF's over lapping.  Pretty much impervious to most content.

 

I do have a Dark Dark Defender which is pretty good.  But not built out.  (Have a Dark/Demons MMind which is most impressive.  Even after her pets got destroyed by the Malta, she could take the punishment they gave out.)

 

I remember a player on Live trying to explain to me with his Dark how 'those floating numbers' meant we weren't getting hit.  (I remember thinking...er...what's the point of that?)

 

A bit more enlightened now, though.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I really dislike builds like that, relying on an Inc power to save you is a crutch (plus yeah, I do level my characters rather than farm em).  But I do still run some proc builds, or maybe I should say "some proc" builds, I don't go as nuts with them as others seem to.

 

Well, yes.  That 'relying' can't mask a poor build or choices.

 

Just as Incarnates (I recall the Live Devs saying) could address an fundamental Alt's weakness.  eg. Clarion for Blaster.

 

However, good to squeeze as much out of your build/alt/power choices before you lean on eg. Ageless.

 

If I can't get a good build with SOs that eg. conquers stamina problems BEFORE I hit L50 (Dark Armour etc) I consider it total defeat.

 

Azrael.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Golden Azrael said:

 

Was it a Dark Defender?  Rad?

 

Any chance you could re-do the costume from memory?  Show it off in the Cel-Shader thread? 😮

 

I did like duoing with FF's over lapping.  Pretty much impervious to most content.

 

I do have a Dark Dark Defender which is pretty good.  But not built out.  (Have a Dark/Demons MMind which is most impressive.  Even after her pets got destroyed by the Malta, she could take the punishment they gave out.)

 

I remember a player on Live trying to explain to me with his Dark how 'those floating numbers' meant we weren't getting hit.  (I remember thinking...er...what's the point of that?)

 

A bit more enlightened now, though.

 

Azrael.

 

Rad/Elec and  yes, I could redo the costume from memory. 

 

What saddens me most about her is an artist liked her costume so much he created a very nice drawing of her. I had it saved on a machine whose drive failed after having the online place I stored a copy on close. 

[Golden Azrael]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Rad/Elec and  yes, I could redo the costume from memory. 

 

What saddens me most about her is an artist liked her costume so much he created a very nice drawing of her. I had it saved on a machine whose drive failed after having the online place I stored a copy on close. 

 

A pity about the loss.

 

You got an artist to a drawing?  (I wonder if he had a back up copy of the drawing of her?)   Interesting.  I know this is something CoH community does for their most favourite alts.  Some very good work around.

 

Have you got a Rad/Elec?  Could be an excuse to 're-roll' her from Live.  I'd like to see the results of this if you do so.  (Give me a nudge if you succumb to the re-roll temptation for her.)

 

One of the things I did on HC (and I'm sure I'm not the only one who did this...) was to re-roll old favourites from Live with the intent of making their builds even better!

 

Broadly, I've succeeded.  And I've learned alot more this time by engaging more in the CoH community than I did on Live.

 

Azrael.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Golden Azrael said:

Have you got a Rad/Elec?  Could be an excuse to 're-roll' her from Live.  I'd like to see the results of this if you do so.  (Give me a nudge if you succumb to the re-roll temptation for her.)

 

When Radiation Emission/Enervating Field was nerfed with Jack/developers claiming no change (Still no change) had been made after weeks of testing and posting documentation of how it had changed, I had such a foul taste in my mouth I left the game for several years, only returning once Jack was gone. Even then I had no heart to go back to my original characters. I changed servers and started fresh, playing until shutdown.

 

Eventually when it could no longer be denied that Enervating Field's value had changed the line offered was, "Sorry, we left out a change. All toggle debuffs which reduce resistance had their value reduced." That was the straw which broke my desire to continue to play because the only toggle resistance debuff in the game was Enervating Field. Saying, "All toggle debuffs" was a way to make it seem like Enervating Field was caught up in some global change when it was the only power which met the qualification. It would be like an ice cream company denying it had changed the recipe for its chocolate ice cream saying, "We forgot that we reduced the amount of cacao products in all our dairy products" when the only product they have with cacao derived substances is their chocolate ice cream--weasel words to avoid admitting they changed the recipe.

 

Then years later, in relating this story on another forum, an ex-developer denied that anything like this could have happened. 

 

It is a deeply unpleasant remembrance and why I leave my original characters to memory.

[Golden Azrael]

They could do with speeding up the anchors from Radiation Emission.

 

They take ages to cast.

 

The rest of the team has destroyed 'x' mob and moved on super quick.

 

I have an Illusion/Radiation Emission Troller.  I've been impressed by it.  Radiation Choke pulse (something I tried on live but didn't quite get...) PArmy.  The anchors help on boss targets or EB/AVs.  But are somewhat clumsy/slow to put down.  Due a speed up (to me) as impressive as they seem to be.

 

I didn't play such sets on live to any significant (L50 degree...) so I'm not really aware of where the set has come from 'tech' spec wise.  But when something takes 'a hit' from the devs it can be annoying.  I felt that way with Perma Hasten being taken away in patch 4.  I think a part of me will never leave patch 3.

 

Similar to Moment of Glory.  I didn't get to play it to its full extent (I was circa L15 on my Regen/Scrapper) before it's baubles were cut though I was around since patch 1.  Even Energy Transfer, I didn't get chance to experience before it was nerfed though I did see my friend putting the 'lights out' with it on a mob.

 

I joined CoH not so long after my friend emerged from Beta.

 

Azrael.

[PLVRIZR]

18 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

That's me and half my builds. Do they work good at 50? Yes. Do I want them to have most their goods and survive Posi 1 ran solo at 0x8 while doing so at a decent clip (under 50 minutes preferably)? Also yes.

 

Do I actually go and solo Posi 1 with a character once having leveled to 50? No 😄

 

^---this and also me

 

We do go back and do all the TFs (on WST rotation) on Tanker Tuesdays, so actually do (occasionally).