Croatoa final mission: Protect the Henge

[Greycat]

I'm going to preface this with saying I like Croatoa. I run most magic-based characters through it, it's a decent story, I even like most of the missions (yes, even the "prevent 30 fir bolg from escaping.") It's a nice late-20s to early-30s set of arcs, with the occasional issue of outside neighborhoods not being clear for hunts.

 

But can we do something about that last mission?

 

The first part is fine - fight red caps, find three mystics, bring them to the henge. No problem with that, bog standard, they're doing something specific rescue mission. It's the part after that's ... just not a great capstone.

 

You get a 15 minute timer to fight off Red Cap ambushes. I say "fight off," but ... there's nothing to it. No variety. You stand in one place and mash buttons - or, depending on AT, you don't even have to do that. There are two spawn points, they run up the hill right into you. The most interesting thing about it is finding ways to cheese it. Tank or brute? You can probably take that first ambush, kill all but the last Red Cap, and just leave the character standing there while you go have lunch. Stormy? Same thing, but hurricane the last guy into a corner and wander off. Grav can be fun, just seeing how far you can chuck the last guy with Wormhole over and over again. Someone with a taunt or toggle debuff and fly? Just hang out of range and let the last guy run around trying to get to you. Mastermind? Minions out, take a nap.

 

It's just not *interesting* in the least. About the best thing I can say about it is it gives decent Cap Buster progress.

 

A few potential suggestions:

1. Theoretically the easiest: Just drop the timer to 5 minutes. Doing the same thing, thematically, but you have to plod through it for less time. I say theoretically because common sense wise, it's "just" changing a number, but I dare not tempt the spaghetti by actually saying it *is.* 

 

2. Slightly harder: Give the ambushes more spawn points. There are *two* right now - right in front of the hill, and to the left of the wall (as you face down) that makes them... come up the hill. At least it would mean you'd have to move, though it wouldn't really solve the "hurricane one into the corner and take a nap."

 

3. More work: Red Cap counter ritual. Or counter-counter ritual. You have to find where they're doing somethingorother, stop it, then run back to protect the henge. Granted, they're already trying to counter what the Red Caps are doing, but ... it keeps you busy at least.

 

4. Another "more work" - Protect the mystics and henge. The mystics no longer just stand there, but have to move out. They're individually vulnerable (though given some sort of shield the Red Caps need to break through.) Need to keep protecting them as well.

 

5. Mix of 2, 3 and 4. Much more work, but it'd keep you busier *and* feel like much more of a battle to protect Salmanca. The ambushes get more spawn points. The Red Caps counter ritual weakens the Mystic shields while it's up, so you need to counter that, then run back and protect them and the henge, since the ambushes still fired off while you were off fighting. (Still one at a time, so it's not overwhelming to lower damage characters.) This is, of course, much more work, but it'd be a heck of a battle. And have a reason to keep that 15 minute timer.

[Rudra]

You have some interesting ideas. Yeah, the Red Cap final ritual mission is boring. Dumb question though: if you're fine with the stop 30 Fir Bolg mission where you just stand at the small henge and smash the individual groups when they approach, why are you not fine with the Red Cap version? Seriously asking here. Is it just because it is the final mission in the Croatoa line? I agree it is fairly anti-climatic, but it is thematic given what has been going on in the preceding arcs. That said, I'd honestly have to play through your suggestions to decide how I feel about them. Sorry for the lack of useful response. (And honestly, I would have liked a major battle against a unique Red Cap like Snaptooth either after the 15-minute counter ritual was done or in a follow-up mission. Just probably not against him specifically since he is intended for the Valentine and Christmas events.)

[A Cat]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

You have some interesting ideas. Yeah, the Red Cap final ritual mission is boring. Dumb question though: if you're fine with the stop 30 Fir Bolg mission where you just stand at the small henge and smash the individual groups when they approach, why are you not fine with the Red Cap version? Seriously asking here. Is it just because it is the final mission in the Croatoa line? I agree it is fairly anti-climatic, but it is thematic given what has been going on in the preceding arcs. That said, I'd honestly have to play through your suggestions to decide how I feel about them. Sorry for the lack of useful response. (And honestly, I would have liked a major battle against a unique Red Cap like Snaptooth either after the 15-minute counter ritual was done or in a follow-up mission. Just probably not against him specifically since he is intended for the Valentine and Christmas events.)

The Fir Bolg one you can end sooner by fighting the mobs out there. There is no choice but to wait in the Red Cap one. I think the Fir Bolg one is also kinda boring though. 

[TheZag]

I turn on my damage aura and stand in the corner where they jump over the fence.  Then i do some stuff around the house for 15 minutes.

 

Maybe they also need to keep spawning even if the previous one isnt cleared.  15 minutes is way too long though.  10 minutes if some interesting stuff is added or just 5 minutes if its left as is.  Even inside Mot you only have 5 minutes of ambushes.

[A Cat]

17 minutes ago, TheZag said:

I turn on my damage aura and stand in the corner where they jump over the fence.  Then i do some stuff around the house for 15 minutes.

 

Maybe they also need to keep spawning even if the previous one isnt cleared.  15 minutes is way too long though.  10 minutes if some interesting stuff is added or just 5 minutes if its left as is.  Even inside Mot you only have 5 minutes of ambushes.

I kill all but one minion, then just sit there AFK as they impotently attack me. 

[Rudra]

How is this? Using Greycat's Option #1 reducing the timer to 5 minutes, except there is a new spawn of Red Caps every 15-30 seconds even if the previous spawn(s) are still alive (Edit: like they do in the Hollows mission with the constant waves of Igneous. Or was that a Who Will Die mission?), and at the end of the 5 minutes an Elite Boss Red Cap spawns not too far away with a minimum entourage of 1 lieutenant and 5 minions. Have the final showdown spawn scale up in size from that point based on team size (or difficulty settings) with the EB able to grow into an AV or GM for large enough teams (or high enough difficulty). Kind of like Snaptooth does, except he starts at his EB, AV, or GM state and stays there.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Rudra

[Coyotedancer]

It needs a change... but keep in mind that if those changes make it too annoying, it'll end up just like the Fir henge mission... An automatic auto-complete that many (most?) of us would rather spend an hour listening to a screeching toddler than actually play through, especially solo.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Grav can be fun, just seeing how far you can chuck the last guy with Wormhole over and over again.

Or, in the case of an interesting bug with "up:max" as a destination, if you draw the wild card, you can just leave them up in the sky for the fifteen minutes:

(the bug is that if you use "up:max" for a destination for the wormhole, sometimes the mobs experience a Wile E. Coyote moment and forget to fall to the ground)

[starro]

I like Croatoa too and hope one day new arcs and content. 
 

yeah, drop the timer.  Back in the day, way back, it was tougher but these days a lot of standing around. 

[krj12]

The best fix would be to make the ambushes timed vs having the next one happen after you kill off the prior ambush.  Eliminates the cheese factor of keeping one mob alive while you go have lunch.

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

You have some interesting ideas. Yeah, the Red Cap final ritual mission is boring. Dumb question though: if you're fine with the stop 30 Fir Bolg mission where you just stand at the small henge and smash the individual groups when they approach, why are you not fine with the Red Cap version? Seriously asking here. Is it just because it is the final mission in the Croatoa line? I agree it is fairly anti-climatic, but it is thematic given what has been going on in the preceding arcs.

 

Both because it is the final arc (well, barring Katie) of the Croatoa line - and, seriously, we defeat Broadkin, who's apparently in charge of the ritual, the mission before? - and, well, yes,  you do have to move around a bit more in the 30 fir bolg mission. There are three different paths these guys can take - and I tend to aim for zero escapes, personally (which I've managed since live.)  There's a thread elsewhere where I've gone over the way I approach that mission - it keeps it fairly active and interesting, at least to me.

 

... here it is -

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

How is this? Using Greycat's Option #1 reducing the timer to 5 minutes, except there is a new spawn of Red Caps every 15-30 seconds even if the previous spawn(s) are still alive (Edit: like they do in the Hollows mission with the constant waves of Igneous. Or was that a Who Will Die mission?), and at the end of the 5 minutes an Elite Boss Red Cap spawns not too far away with a minimum entourage of 1 lieutenant and 5 minions. Have the final showdown spawn scale up in size from that point based on team size (or difficulty settings) with the EB able to grow into an AV or GM for large enough teams (or high enough difficulty). Kind of like Snaptooth does, except he starts at his EB, AV, or GM state and stays there.

 

See, I was considering a timer like this, but what I don't want to do is have this be annoying for "anything but DPS." I've played Earth/FF where kill time is measured in years. :) 

 

[Rudra]

Point.

 

...

 

Okay, so how about reduce the timer to 5 minutes, no changes to ambush spawn mechanism, but add the after ritual fight? Maybe even bring Broadkin back as the after ritual opponent, but as a tougher enemy or with actual support?

[Greycat]

I wouldn't argue.

 

Heck, I'm mostly just posting this as a "Can *something* be done to make this better?" discussion.

[A Cat]

13 hours ago, Rudra said:

Point.

 

...

 

Okay, so how about reduce the timer to 5 minutes, no changes to ambush spawn mechanism, but add the after ritual fight? Maybe even bring Broadkin back as the after ritual opponent, but as a tougher enemy or with actual support?

I'd like that. Or have a weakened version of Jack. Something to spice things up. Maybe have a huge wave of enemies appear in a cutscene with the bosses, and it all seems hopeless, but then all those ghosts you helped in the beginning arc show up and mix it up with the red caps while you fight the boss. 

[Placta]

On 2/20/2022 at 6:33 PM, Greycat said:

Both because it is the final arc (well, barring Katie) of the Croatoa line - and, seriously, we defeat Broadkin, who's apparently in charge of the ritual, the mission before? - and, well, yes,  you do have to move around a bit more in the 30 fir bolg mission. There are three different paths these guys can take - and I tend to aim for zero escapes, personally (which I've managed since live.)  There's a thread elsewhere where I've gone over the way I approach that mission - it keeps it fairly active and interesting, at least to me.

 

On the other hand, you can – and I have – defeat enough that you're confident there aren't enough left to get to 30 escapees, find somewhere safe, and go take a nap. No need for autopowers or anything. Hell, you could hit Self-Destruct and let the mission complete while you're dead. Let the last few escape and not worry about it.

 

As for Salinger's mission, maybe nix the timer and just fight off a certain number (10?) waves of Red Cap ambushes.