Rebirth changes

[PhoenixV117]

So, the rebirth server got a bunch of changes that we desperately need and that essentially fix and buff warshade and peacebringer. When will homecoming get this ?!

 

[Doomrider]

1 hour ago, PhoenixV117 said:

So, the rebirth server got a bunch of changes that we desperately need and that essentially fix and buff warshade and peacebringer. When will homecoming get this ?!

I've played the changes. My brief summation:

- slot tax fixed; most if not all key powers can be taken without being starved for slots.
- form powers being expanded is good for players who want a less frenetic playstyle and prefer to play "roles" using one form at a time.
- Nova now has a discernable offensive edge over Human. ST attacks have been buffed accordingly.
- Toggle suppression including endurance refund for toggles while in Nova/Dwarf allows for net zero or near net zero endurance usage while in those forms.
This one is huge for playing a true triform.
- Orbiting Death and Inky Aspect working across form makes Triform Warshade a lot more dynamic and flexible without feeling OP. 
Retoggling was always a PITA, at least you can do it from the comfort of Dwarf now, and your aggro tools (OD, Dwarf Mire and Taunt) get you closer to actually filling in for a tank in a pinch.


There are some caveats, but all in all, more positive changes than negative ones. There are some kinks that need to smoothed out in the User Experience department. But as is, this is way more user and newbie friendly Kheld experience by far.

Release notes
https://forum.cityofheroesrebirth.com/index.php/topic,299.0.html
Latest update and power expansion
https://forum.cityofheroesrebirth.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html

Patch notes posted here for clarity.

 

[Microcosm]

Do we know if the toggle suppression works with pool powers like Weave? OD and inky are a big deal, but dropping to human and retoggling defensive/leadership powers would be a missed opportunity.

 

I also see no change to dark extraction, which is pretty needed, and it looks like light form is usable in dwarf but eclipse is not? Guess I need to get on rebirth to see...

[Doomrider]

12 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Do we know if the toggle suppression works with pool powers like Weave? OD and inky are a big deal, but dropping to human and retoggling defensive/leadership powers would be a missed opportunity.

 

I also see no change to dark extraction, which is pretty needed, and it looks like light form is usable in dwarf but eclipse is not? Guess I need to get on rebirth to see...

Power pool toggles suppress. While in Dwarf/Nova, you're granted a recovery buff equal to the endurance drain for each toggle so they're net zero on end burn.
No re-toggling necessary. It's the dream buddy.

No changes to dark extraction, but at least from my time testing over the past few days, they don't seem to kamikaze quite as hard as they do on HC. Between that and OD and Dwarf mire now both taunting, uptime on fluffies is a lot better.

Eclipse is usable in dwarf. 
Black Dwarf gets ebon eye, dwarf strike, dwarf smite, dwarf drain (which has been buffed, it's basically siphon life now), dwarf mire, taunt, and eclipse.
 

[Doomrider]

The only caveat is that in order to fix the slot tax, they've used power redirection (sim. to Water Jet from Water Blast) to enable the Human form variants and Form variants to share slots.
Dark Det, Gravitic Emanation, Sunless Mire, Essence Drain are all free powers granted by their forms.

Dark Det, Essence Drain are both usable in Nova. 
Gravitic Emanation shares slots with Nova Emanation. Which has it's obvious draw backs... it basically requires frankenslotting in order to use as a stun or dmg power.
Sunless Mire shares slots with Dwarf Mire. In both circumstances, this is also means they share cooldowns :S
The situation with both sets of powers are similar, but what they've done with Mires as a bit of a trade off is they've doubled the magnitude of the tohit and damage buff for the first 10 seconds. So you have to decide if the circumstances call for a longer duration buff (Sunless) or if you'd perfer the Dwarf Aoe. I usually favor Dwarf Mire.

For Gravitic emanation I went with Absolute Amazement (stun+5, and acc/stun/rch+5) and 4 procs. Works decently for me.

I do suggest you jump over and check out the changes @Microcosm. They're pretty great. Nova has also seen some improvements for ST damage, and some powers have been expanded there as well.

[Microcosm]

Thanks Doom. I think I will jump over. Dwarf Mire and Sunless mire also have pretty drastic cast time differences. These are some understandable tradeoffs. Not sure I would have made exactly the same changes, but it looks like a net positive in a big way.

 

One other thing we lose: while the slot crunch has been an issue, each distinct form power got a "free" base slot. This mattered when trying to stack certain bonuses (kinetic combat). This is a fair trade for the ability to use more powers, but just want to call it out.

[Doomrider]

6 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Thanks Doom. I think I will jump over. Dwarf Mire and Sunless mire also have pretty drastic cast time differences. These are some understandable tradeoffs. Not sure I would have made exactly the same changes, but it looks like a net positive in a big way.

 

One other thing we lose: while the slot crunch has been an issue, each distinct form power got a "free" base slot. This mattered when trying to stack certain bonuses (kinetic combat). This is a fair trade for the ability to use more powers, but just want to call it out.

Yeah that's fair, and should definitely be considered if/when similar changes here ever happen. With Rebirth giving a bunch of free slots (more than HC does currently), I had basically enough to 6 slot everything I needed to, just about. 
Another special note on the Mires; Sunless Mire base recharge was reduced to 90 seconds down from 120, fwiw.
 

[Microcosm]

Alright, I logged in over there long enough to train to 50. Ignoring some of the differences with Homecoming, here are some thoughts:

 

Toggle suppression/inky and OD working in forms is excellent. However, the defense toggles suppressing outside of human makes human probably still the most survivable form if you can deal with mez, which isn't right. I don't think I would ever toggle on dwarf unless I wanted to taunt something. Seems like some part of pool powers working in forms would be better.

 

The power rerouting is definitely not the way I would have dealt with slot crunch. It absolutely neuters the ability to slot for many bonuses as it removes three Melee powers by combining them or replacing them (gravimetric snare replacing dwarf strike). Speaking of gravimetric snare, you need to take that now to have a fully functional dwarf, and it's a pretty garbage power. So you maybe pick up Essence Drain by taking dwarf, but you pay it back by having to take gravimetric snare. I think a better fix would have been to just grant x number of extra form-only slots if you take the forms or something.

 

Ability to use some powers in forms: gold.

[Iron Alex]

this is a dream..i haven't been on in a couple of months... but I've been wanting toggle suppression since live lol.. posted about it from live.  this would be great if the implemented this lol..

[Doomrider]

9 minutes ago, Microcosm said:

Seems like some part of pool powers working eaking of gravimetric snare, you need to take that now to have a fully functional dwarf, and it's a pretty garbage power. So you maybe pick up Essence Drain by taking dwarf, but you pay it back by having to take gravimetric snare. 

 

Grav snare is definitely the weakest link the toolkit. I skipped it entirely. With having ebon eye, dwarf smite, and buffed essence drain, I already have a better dwarf chain. Strike is too weak to bother with imo.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Doomrider

[Microcosm]

27 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

Grav snare is definitely the weakest link the toolkit. I skipped it entirely. With having ebon eye, dwarf smite, and buffed essence drain, I already have a better dwarf chain. Strike is too weak to bother with imo.

 

That is fair. I'd be salty still about losing the ability to slot so many kinetic combats in a build. I wonder if the hold procs in Gravity Well still function while acting as Dwarf Smite. Will have to figure out how to get that stuff on their test server..

 

Edit: Found another quirk, after playing a little. Common tactic is to use Gravitic Emanation then switch to Nova to wail on a crowd. However, now that GE is shared across human and nova forms, if you hit it in Human it goes on the long cooldown timer, so you can't use it for a while in Nova. If you use it in Nova form it has the shorter recharge to use as part of an AoE chain, but not not really doable if you use it in human first.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Microcosm

[Doomrider]

They have Consolidated Feedback channel/threads available for anyone whose interested in contributing:

https://forum.cityofheroesrebirth.com/index.php/topic,300.0.html

https://discord.com/channels/568451050181492736/984659127206826045

 

[kelika2]

i still cant wrap my head around having the spare slots for human shields to even need or want this in the first place.  i barely had the slots for 3 ribos in dwarf form

[Hyperstrike]

6 hours ago, Microcosm said:

Edit: Found another quirk, after playing a little. Common tactic is to use Gravitic Emanation then switch to Nova to wail on a crowd. However, now that GE is shared across human and nova forms, if you hit it in Human it goes on the long cooldown timer, so you can't use it for a while in Nova. If you use it in Nova form it has the shorter recharge to use as part of an AoE chain, but not not really doable if you use it in human first.

Ah.  The worst of both worlds!

[Doomrider]

12 hours ago, kelika2 said:

i still cant wrap my head around having the spare slots for human shields to even need or want this in the first place.  i barely had the slots for 3 ribos in dwarf form

With Dwarf having an equal recovery buff to offset the endurance drain making it net zero, I can't wrap my head around the need for a Ribosome let alone 3.

I have Dwarf's single slot w/ a resist IO +5. Between that, set bonuses and 1 target eclipse, I already sit between 70 and 85% resists to all but psi while in Dwarf, and that's solo. On a team I'm capped regardless.

As for the human shields; on Rebirth in conjunction with the other changes, we now have room to fit at least 2/3 shields (s/l and e/n ones) while still having enough slots to mule 5x LOTG and enough power picks/slots to fit all the other key powers.
With just 1 res/end boosted +5, the shields are cheap to run and grant about 27% res each. Between THAT, 1 target Eclipse and set bonuses and the inherent, i'm capped in Human to most on teams, and still operate around 60-70% to most while solo, for relatively low cost/investment.

EDIT: With fire/cold res being such a common set bonus, in an IO build there is almost no need for Penumbral shield. 
You end up having about 50-60% fire/cold res just from bonuses which will put it into a similar range as s/l and e/n.

"The want" part comes from a desire to have less reliance on Eclipse, and for exemping purposes. 


 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Doomrider

[kelika2]

38 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

With Dwarf having an equal recovery buff to offset the endurance drain making it net zero, I can't wrap my head around the need for a Ribosome let alone 3.

Exemplaring and turns it into a gain.

This all sounds like a lot of work on both the players and devs end to have the shapeshifting AT, not shapeshift.

Like turning Regen into a resist/def alt via IOs while still claiming to be a regen, its just a lot of work

[Doomrider]

5 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Exemplaring and turns it into a gain.

This all sounds like a lot of work on both the players and devs end to have the shapeshifting AT, not shapeshift.

Like turning Regen into a resist/def alt via IOs while still claiming to be a regen, its just a lot of work

I guess. Compared to a single res+5 you gain another 9% res to all and .13 end/sec recovery with your slotting. Not worth the extra slots imo, but there is a net benefit.

Toggle suppression is a QoL change; it does not in and of itself, make any alterations to how the Shapeshifting aspects of the AT operate. 
It's designed to minimize the need for re-toggling when shifting back to Human form, provided the player is interested in utilizing powers within the kit (Res shields) and as far as Rebirth is concerned, this also extends to Power Pools as well while they are in Human form.
This doesn't create any additional work for the players. In fact, it's actually less effort than it currently is.
You can continue to not use toggles in your build, toggle suppression will not require the player to take or use them. 

As far as work on the dev side is concerned; It's not really our concern how they spend their time. If it was very difficult and time consuming to implement, I'm sure that would have factored into it being a reality or not. This is only 1 small part of their overall Kheld revamp.

At the end of the day; It is up to the player to decide whether Toggle Suppression is any use to them or not. It does however mean, that even on a Triform Shade, you could now utilize Orbiting Death and Inky Aspect in your build without the need to spend 4.5 seconds re-toggling anytime you shift down to human. 
It gives players another option, so I feel it's worth it. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Doomrider

[Microcosm]

Well I can tell you guys I went ahead and remade my Warshade on Rebirth in prep for this. Simply the ability to keep OD and Inky on in the forms was enough to sink that, much else all the other changes. I prefer my PB as human form, so will probably not remake that one at this point; the double stomp is one major reason to go multi-form there and that would disappear with these changes, so not particularly interested in that. Now have to find someone that wants to trade HC inf for Rebirth inf 🙂

[ScarySai]

To summarize: I'd consider them almost perfect.

 

Only things I don't like are how gravatic snare is still awful, how emanation, dwarf mire, the PB heal and flares aren't shared anymore due to how integral they are to the playstyles, and how the changes indirectly make keybinding khelds more annoying to do.

[Golden Azrael]

These changes look immense for the Kheldians.

 

Using the forms was always very limited.  'Just' four attacks forcing you hop the forms somewhat...and not (for me) offering enough to stay in those forms.  Whether it was limitations at the time...these changes are a long time coming and allows the forms to be more involved and less situational.  It makes sense that the forms would have shared access to most of the power abilities.

 

I have a L50 WS (and a PB to about L22) and I do find them clumsy in operation (shifting forms back to human in combat is a nightmare) and there is a lot of waste of slots and duplication.  Pity.  I run Human form as it's too much hassle to shift forms.  I gave up my dream of a tri-form war machine.  It's too much like hard work.  The human form is pretty devastating though.  It was a painful journey to get to L50 and built...  It's an AoE trash hoover.

 

This design 'consolidation' has made the design of both far more efficient.  And points the way forward.  Credit where it's due.

 

Almost worth creating a Rebirth a/c for.

 

I'm sure when HC devs get around to it, it will be interesting to see what they do.  

 

But have to give the Rebirth devs some props here.  A pity the dev' community can't share their best ideas and Rebirth have a hit a home run with some innovation here for Kheldians.  But I guess that competition will bring the best out of Rebirth and HC

 

That and the 'Stone Sand' skin texture in the costume creator...

 

Azrael.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[Golden Azrael]

On 6/16/2022 at 3:07 AM, Microcosm said:

Well I can tell you guys I went ahead and remade my Warshade on Rebirth in prep for this. Simply the ability to keep OD and Inky on in the forms was enough to sink that, much else all the other changes. I prefer my PB as human form, so will probably not remake that one at this point; the double stomp is one major reason to go multi-form there and that would disappear with these changes, so not particularly interested in that. Now have to find someone that wants to trade HC inf for Rebirth inf 🙂

 

*Drools.  Double Stomp.

 

*reaches hand out weakly...water...water...

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:31 PM, ScarySai said:

To summarize: I'd consider them almost perfect.

 

Only things I don't like are how gravatic snare is still awful, how emanation, dwarf mire, the PB heal and flares aren't shared anymore due to how integral they are to the playstyles, and how the changes indirectly make keybinding khelds more annoying to do.

 

Praise indeed.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

Once change I would make would be to consolidate the 3 'bubble' shields into 'just one' shield.  It would cut down on the power choice excess.  It always felt irritating to take all three.

 

*Back to human form?  *Turn on that shield...and that shield...and THAT shield...oh...I@m mezzed....AREGHGHGHHGHGHGHHGHHHH!  (Maybe have them as auto powers?  Rather than Toggles?)

 

And you can survive on the surface of the sun?

 

But you can have 2 of your 3 forms so easily mezzed?  I would have thought the psi power of an alien species that can make it to Earth would be far superior to mob grunts on Earth to all but gifted Psi users?  I'd rather than have superior Psi res/def out of the box.  I don't see why not.

 

Azrael.

[Marshal_General]

With power suppression being a thing, why have to re-toggle anything?