Suggested QoL change - Pool Power Standardization

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Right.  Which is what I do.  To be clear, I'm not advocating a change...merely disagreeing with the idea that a character need take a punch or kick in order to be tougher and harder to hit, even if it's from a pool power called 'Fighting'.  It's entirely possible I'm just a strange cat with strange ideas...but I like to imagine being a bit tougher and harder to hit, beyond primary and secondary powers, that's reflected in a mutation or an improvement on armor.

The issue is that for every "but MY character doesn't need [insert prerequisite power here] because of reason X", there is at least one "yes they do" rationalization...

[Wobegone]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

The issue is that for every "but MY character doesn't need [insert prerequisite power here] because of reason X", there is at least one "yes they do" rationalization...

Sure, I suppose.  I just think some folks get too caught up in labels, like 'fighting', in a genre in which mixing and matching disparate powers is quite normal.  

[biostem]

9 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Sure, I suppose.  I just think some folks get too caught up in labels, like 'fighting', in a genre in which mixing and matching disparate powers is quite normal.  

They had to put the power somewhere, and it fits the theme.  Either way, them's the breaks, so learn to work within the game's systems...

[Naraka]

17 hours ago, kelika2 said:

issue 9 was inventions, right?

already happened like 15 years ago

 

so, proper to this conversation is power crept

and we are still playing

 

Probably far fewer playing though...which could be an argument for going through with the change.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Sure, I suppose.  I just think some folks get too caught up in labels, like 'fighting', in a genre in which mixing and matching disparate powers is quite normal.  

A name is just a name. Like people thinking Rage is only applicable to anger because of the name rather than that boost of power you get from the adrenaline surge. My point is not the name. My point is the theme and the progression of power. Using the Fighting pool as my reference for this discussion, it is all about fighting, and apparently unarmed at that. (Edit: Whether it's boxing, a kick-only martial art (like... savate I think?), just being a natural brawler, or whatever. Pick your poison/idea for the unarmed fighting that the pool set implies in its build.) Yes, a character can be naturally hardier or wear armor. That has nothing to do with a generic power pool designed with unarmed combat in mind. Something like that is better represented by the AT the character uses rather than a generic power pool.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to change "a reference" to "my reference for this discussion".

[kelika2]

29 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Probably far fewer playing though...which could be an argument for going through with the change.

I dont see how the two click.

But I guess 'Quality of Life' and 'Power Creep' are the same thing depending on who you are

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Right.  Which is what I do.  To be clear, I'm not advocating a change...merely disagreeing with the idea that a character need take a punch or kick in order to be tougher and harder to hit, even if it's from a pool power called 'Fighting'.  It's entirely possible I'm just a strange cat with strange ideas...but I like to imagine being a bit tougher and harder to hit, beyond primary and secondary powers, that's reflected in a mutation or an improvement on armor.  

 

I don't disagree. I can improve my constitution without ever learning how to throw a better punch or use my feet for anything but carrying my weight around. But that's the real world.

 

In game, all pools should follow the same rules.

[battlewraith]

The pools don't all follow the same rules. I thought that was the whole point of this thread. Also, the structure of these pools was established back in the beginning--when fitness was a separate pool. That pool was considered mandatory for most people and it was a drag to have to waste picks on it--so the devs made it an inherent. It was a drag to wait on travel powers, so again they loosened the requirements on that as well. The idea the initial rules are set in stone and cannot be changed due to thematic, progression, or whatever justification that relates to the initial plan of the game is nonsense. It's factually incorrect. And it's ridiculous to say that in a suggestion thread.

 

 

[Zepp]

4 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

No, by the the Frivolous theorem of arithmetic, any number you can name is a small number.

I would have said, "Is 316₁₃ really a lot?" but then I remembered the Douglas Adams quote, "I may be a sorry case, but I don't write jokes in base 13."

[Zepp]

As someone who has trained in several fighting systems, I can assure you that resiliency and avoidance are sometimes taught before offensive actions. Furthermore, the concept of fighting one before fighting many is not set in stone. So, thematically, there is no "right" order for fighting. They are five abilities in non-hierarchical relation to each other. My point earlier on CPR before bandaging. When I was in high school, all students were required to take CPR training with the option of certification. However, not all those who became certified knew how to bandage or apply a tourniquet, and I wouldn't trust any of them to give me stitches.

 

That being said, my initial thought was along the lines of @Bill Z Bubba, "In game, all pools should follow the same rules." This is not due to intellectual laziness, but due to there being no real reason to differentiate between the three systems.

 

In my amendment I even suggested a way to make the adjustment while avoiding perceived power creep.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

The pools don't all follow the same rules. I thought that was the whole point of this thread. Also, the structure of these pools was established back in the beginning--when fitness was a separate pool. That pool was considered mandatory for most people and it was a drag to have to waste picks on it--so the devs made it an inherent. It was a drag to wait on travel powers, so again they loosened the requirements on that as well. The idea the initial rules are set in stone and cannot be changed due to thematic, progression, or whatever justification that relates to the initial plan of the game is nonsense. It's factually incorrect. And it's ridiculous to say that in a suggestion thread.

 

It is true that the rules were tossed when those running the SSPS allowed movement at lvl 4 with no prereq. But we don't have to leave that in place. We can fix bad decisions that occurred during that period.

 

Revert all pools to how they were at shutdown including APP/PPP.

[Rudra]

The travel powers being available at level 4 was done back on Live. I think you still had to take either of the basic powers from the pool, I can't really remember, but I do remember that the travel powers were made available at level 4 back on Live.

 

Edit: I know it makes me hypocritical, but the reason I remember that change happening was because I was so very glad it was no longer necessary to wait until level 14 for my winged characters to be able to fly.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Rudra

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It is true that the rules were tossed when those running the SSPS allowed movement at lvl 4 with no prereq. But we don't have to leave that in place. We can fix bad decisions that occurred during that period.

 

Revert all pools to how they were at shutdown including APP/PPP.

 

What you're asking for is way more radical than changing the structure of the power pools. Those were not bad decisions, they were popular with the playerbase.

You wanna tap the game in the knee with a lead pipe and fight power creep by slowing everything down and inflicting...actual creeping. Ain't gonna happen. People would be pissed and it wouldn't be any major improvement.

 

In contrast, skipping some more prerequisite powers in the pools would likely result in a couple less power slots wasted in some builds. No one has made any substantial case for how this would be gamebreaking other than the generic hand waving about power creep.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

Those were not bad decisions, they were popular with the playerbase.

 

I fail to see how popular equates to good.

 

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

No one has made any substantial case for how this would be gamebreaking other than the generic hand waving about power creep.

 

Let's examine that.

 

All pools get changed to T1-T3 available at lvl 4 with no prereq. T4 and T5 available at 14, T4 as long as you have 1 prereq, T5 as long as you have 2.

 

So I'll get Tough at lvl 4 with no prereq and Weave at 14 since I have tough.

Hasten at 4 and Burnout at 14.

Tactics at 4 and Vengeance at 14.

Aid Self at 4 and Field Medic at 14.

 

But power creep doesn't matter so why not, right?

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

In game, all pools should follow the same rules.

 

Three pools for keeping the damage at bay,

Three for the origins writ in stone,

Five for travel powers, helping us save the day,

And one for use when not alone

In the City of Heroes where we come to play.

One rule to guide them all, one rule behind them,

One rule to equalize and in the game bind them.

In the City of Heroes where we come to play.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

Three pools for keeping the damage at bay,

Three for the origins writ in stone,

Five for travel powers, helping us save the day,

And one for use when not alone

In the City of Heroes where we come to play.

One rule to guide them all, one rule behind them,

One rule to equalize and in the game bind them.

In the City of Heroes where we come to play.

Copying that for remembering. 😄

[Bill Z Bubba]

And why should we stop with the pools? Many of my characters are forced to take the T1 or T2 from the primary and the T1 from the secondary and especially on the primary side end up unused and unslotted with my lvl 50 builds. Let's skip them as well and allow the T3 to be chosen at level 1.

 

Since power creep no longer matters.

[Rudra]

Let's take a look at power creep in the game... you can find people on the forums that claim the game is excessively easy. (Edit: Seriously, you don't even have to look for them. Their comments adorn most of the threads.) To achieve their game god status, they still have to give up some power slots to get their min-max builds. Now let's take away the need for that. Hmm....

 

We already have the Holy Quartet of power sets of Leadership, Leaping, Fighting, and Speed. Almost every character has those sets it seems. So let's just make every character even more cookie cutter cut-out! How long until the request is made to be allowed to have 5 power pools so those free slots can be taken up with more powers? You know, for the sake of better min-maxing. Sorry, I meant "creative individuality".

 

They're also going to need more enhancement slots to fully utilize those new powers. Betcha that request will be made too.

 

You can already make uber god builds. So let's just make it easier to do so. Why not? As the game's challenge goes away, the devs will face more demands for harder content because we already asked to make more powerful characters. Or people will get bored with the lack of challenge and leave.

 

This is the development quandary. The game needs to be updated. Constantly. It needs to be fresh enough to keep existing players, interesting enough to bring in new players, and challenging enough that it is not a play once and walk away game.

 

Edit: Oh lord, I argued power creep....

Edited July 10, 2022 by Rudra

[Bill Z Bubba]

Course... then I'm gonna have so many build options we'll need to go ahead and allow for more power pools. Then, FINALLY, I can build BZB scrapper properly with nothing but powers I actually use.

 

Slash

Focused Fighting

Focused Senses

Agile

Spin

Fly

Master Brawler (Since SR will get the sentinel treatment as we're in the land of dreams now!)

Hasten

Followup

Dodge

Focus

Tough

Weave

Combat Jumping

Lucky

Quickness

Shockwave

Evasion

Conserve Power

Physical Perfection

Provoke

Assault

Tactics

 

Yea... that'd be nice. Let's do that.

 

Edit: Cuz power creep don't matter.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And why should we stop with the pools? Many of my characters are forced to take the T1 or T2 from the primary and the T1 from the secondary and especially on the primary side end up unused and unslotted with my lvl 50 builds. Let's skip them as well and allow the T3 to be chosen at level 1.

 

The game actually does go boom if those restrictions are removed.  Real boom, not just "aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh my character's lips turned into an anus" or "ZOMG why am I shooting lasers from my crotch".  No starty, no worky boom.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

The game actually does go boom if those restrictions are removed.  Real boom, not just "aaaaaaaahhhhhhhh my character's lips turned into an anus" or "ZOMG why am I shooting lasers from my crotch".  No starty, no worky boom.

 

The game DID go boom when they tried it. That was then, this is now. Code can be rewritten. Code can be fixed.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I fail to see how popular equates to good.

 

It's a game. The purpose is to entertain people. If something is popular, it's an indication that people are being entertained. If you completely divorce your notions of what is "good" from what is appealing to your audience--then you could drive this whole thing into the ground and still pat yourself on the back thinking you did good work. Likewise, you could hold what you have as the best thing ever, ignore any call for change, and just let it be a stagnant museum piece until the remnants of the player base wither away.

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But power creep doesn't matter so why not, right?

 

You still have the the same slots and number of powers as before. Wanna take tactics at lvl 4, knock yourself out.

 

Power creep matters. It's just not a convenient excuse to shoot down everything you don't like for whatever reason. There's a middle ground that can found. On one hand you want to roll everything back to the good old days, and on the other you fly off the rails and say well why not get rid of all restrictions. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You still have the the same slots and number of powers as before. Wanna take tactics at lvl 4, knock yourself out.

 

Fine. Lemme take shockwave at lvl 1.

 

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Power creep matters. It's just not a convenient excuse to shoot down everything you don't like for whatever reason. There's a middle ground that can found. On one hand you want to roll everything back to the good old days, and on the other you fly off the rails and say well why not get rid of all restrictions. 

 

 

Appropriate for power creep and compromise.

[battlewraith]

59 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Appropriate for power creep and compromise.

Egads you're confused. Really and sadly confused. And apparently trying to get this thread locked.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It's a game. The purpose is to entertain people. If something is popular, it's an indication that people are being entertained. If you completely divorce your notions of what is "good" from what is appealing to your audience--then you could drive this whole thing into the ground and still pat yourself on the back thinking you did good work. Likewise, you could hold what you have as the best thing ever, ignore any call for change, and just let it be a stagnant museum piece until the remnants of the player base wither away.

 

As for this: how many folks have stopped playing because it's all too easy? There's 1300 people online right now. What was the population count on a Saturday night back before the snap at its highest point?

 

Change is fine. Making the ridiculously easy even easier isn't. Might as well just grant that clear map button usable once an hour.