issue 27 Focused Feedback: Advanced Difficulty Improvements & New Reward Currency

[dom9630]

3 minutes ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

Time commitment. If you've never done the ASF on 4-Star vs. default, the normal difficulty ASF can be completed in about ~30 minutes, a run completed on 4-Star will take you closer to ~2.5-3 hours.

If you can complete highly difficult content requiring the entire team be maxed-out incarnates consistently, that is the more rewarding option, but we want flexibility and options.

This makes a bit more sense.

 

I have not been on a 4-star ASF that takes 2.5-3 hours except for 1 time when we had a leaver. But I also consistently run with min-maxed and well built teammates (which is not everybody so I can chuck that up to personal bias.)

 

Still though, it would be nice to have some incentive as a higher-end build to help out with lower-end difficulties as I still think people will power-creep the TF's difficulties. (Remember how hard the original ITF was compared to two weeks after it came out? I know, forever ago.) Some of the biggest turn-offs I hear about people not doing the ASF is that they don't want to jump head-first into something difficult. A lot of people were running 'casual' runs of the ASF the first 3 or so weeks it came out, but now it still feels like a 4-star or bust situation.

[Sovera]

46 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

Maybe I'm not understanding, but why would I bother to do the 2-star earlier in the day when I can just do the 4-star and get all my rewards in one TF?

 

I may be in the minority here, but with the diminishing returns on repeating content in a 18h (or whatever it was) period I don't do two of the same content in the same day. Is it that common to repeat an ITF/whatever knowing it impacts the final reward?

 

Not that the ITF is a great example since it gives poor merits and the real appeal are the thousands of mobs arrested along the way.

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

I may be in the minority here, but with the diminishing returns on repeating content in a 18h (or whatever it was) period I don't do two of the same content in the same day. Is it that common to repeat an ITF/whatever knowing it impacts the final reward?

 

Not that the ITF is a great example since it gives poor merits and the real appeal are the thousands of mobs arrested along the way.

 

You probably play the game a lot more 'normally' than I do. For example, the ITF  at +4 x8 with the set of builds I use can be done in 15/20 minutes. I'm going to run that 2-3 times in an hour despite the reward merits diminishing. Why? Because it's fun for me.

 

There are others like me, and there are others like you, neither of our worlds are going to change because I can earn more vanity coins than you can the way you might do it.

 

Putting the new vanity coins on a timegate is just insulting to my time because the way I want to play isn't going to let me play with the new fun toys. Yes, they are dumb cosmetic new toys, but now I feel like I have no reason to go after them, except by playing a way I don't like to.

[TomatoPhalanges]

2 hours ago, dom9630 said:

This makes a bit more sense.

 

I have not been on a 4-star ASF that takes 2.5-3 hours except for 1 time when we had a leaver. But I also consistently run with min-maxed and well built teammates (which is not everybody so I can chuck that up to personal bias.)

 

Still though, it would be nice to have some incentive as a higher-end build to help out with lower-end difficulties as I still think people will power-creep the TF's difficulties. (Remember how hard the original ITF was compared to two weeks after it came out? I know, forever ago.) Some of the biggest turn-offs I hear about people not doing the ASF is that they don't want to jump head-first into something difficult. A lot of people were running 'casual' runs of the ASF the first 3 or so weeks it came out, but now it still feels like a 4-star or bust situation.

For what it's worth, you could always run the lower-end difficulties as an alt that isn't locked out with a 4-star in the same time period. Not like you're going to be doing back-to-back 4-stars, good luck getting a group together in enough of an organized state for long enough - and if you can do that easily, you're in a very small minority. Also, i definitely still see people running 'casual' ASFs for the D-Syncs, FWIW

[TygerDarkstorm]

3 hours ago, dom9630 said:

There's a reason long-time players don't bother play lower-level content and why they despise having to run at exemplar'd level when they've spent time getting to level 50. 

You're saying this like it's a blanket statement objective fact when it is not. There are likely just as many people who build for exemplaring and enjoy it as there are people like you who only want to play a min/maxed level 50. Not all of us are interested in being cutting edge, and it's nice there's opportunities for those of us who are more casual to still be able to earn this "currency" without playing the AH if we so desire. It's not like it's required to earn these things.

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

You're saying this like it's a blanket statement objective fact when it is not. There are likely just as many people who build for exemplaring and enjoy it as there are people like you who only want to play a min/maxed level 50. Not all of us are interested in being cutting edge, and it's nice there's opportunities for those of us who are more casual to still be able to earn this "currency" without playing the AH if we so desire. It's not like it's required to earn these things.

 

I would be a betting man right now if you started a casual ITF and invite a mix of level 35-50 level players, at least one of the level 50s is going to ask to take star so they can run it at 50+.

 

[arthurh35353]

6 hours ago, The Curator said:

The to-hit buff granted by Tactics on enemies in Advanced Difficulty now has max stack caps that match the star count of the difficulty level chosen.

This... doesn't seem to make sense logically for the 2, 3 and 4 stars. 

 

If it's supposed to be harder for the 4th star because it gives greater rewards, you go from up to 8 stack of Tactics (no limitations), down to 2, then 3 then 4.

 

Shouldn't it be max of 4 Tactics for 2 ☆ ☆ , 3 tactic stacks for 3☆ ☆ ☆  and 2 stacks of tactic for 4 ☆ ☆ ☆ ?

[TygerDarkstorm]

16 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

 

I would be a betting man right now if you started a casual ITF and invite a mix of level 35-50 level players, at least one of the level 50s is going to ask to take star so they can run it at 50+.

 

So take a niche case thinking you've proved something? That's a terrible example, especially as even with a mix of 35-50 players, having a level 50 in charge benefits everyone--more powers, better rewards, better xp, etc. That doesn't mean that the level 50 lead is also a maxed out incarnate built for cutting edge content, which was more of my point. There are people who exemplar their level 50 characters, and when I say that, I'm not using a niche case like the ITF as an example; many will run the lower level TF's and story arcs as well. Your experience and playstyle are not the same as everyone else and your original blanket statement still does not apply to all players. I will probably never be good enough to play at a 4 star difficulty (nor really want to), and that's okay, I have the lower difficulties for which to achieve these rewards should I so desire to have them; this should not be something that impacts you, especially when this currency does not power up your character in anyway.

[dom9630]

6 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

having a level 50 in charge benefits everyone--more powers, better rewards, better xp, etc. 

 

This is my point.

 

If Positron could be started at level 50, people would be doing Posi level 50+

If the Instant Army story arc could be started at level 50, people would run it at level 50+.

 

You are welcome to play things at your own speed and difficulty. But why am I being slowed down by an artificial time gate on salvage rewards, for something that neither gives you opportunities, or harms the way you choose to play?

 

I think you might be misunderstanding why I made that statement.

 

I don't think everyone should -have- to play at +4. But for those that do, why are we punishing them for going back to help players like you do a run at +1?

Edited July 13, 2022 by dom9630

[TomatoPhalanges]

19 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

This... doesn't seem to make sense logically for the 2, 3 and 4 stars. 

 

If it's supposed to be harder for the 4th star because it gives greater rewards, you go from up to 8 stack of Tactics (no limitations), down to 2, then 3 then 4.

 

Shouldn't it be max of 4 Tactics for 2 ☆ ☆ , 3 tactic stacks for 3☆ ☆ ☆  and 2 stacks of tactic for 4 ☆ ☆ ☆ ?

I believe it's referring to the enemy Tactics, not the team's, but I may be wrong on that

[TomatoPhalanges]

4 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

 

This is my point.

 

If Positron could be started at level 50, people would be doing Posi level 50+

If the Instant Army story arc could be started at level 50, people would run it at level 50+.

 

You are welcome to play things at your own speed and difficulty. But why am I being slowed down by an artificial time gate on salvage rewards, for something that neither gives you opportunities, or harms the way you choose to play?

 

I think you might be misunderstanding why I made that statement.

 

I don't think everyone should -have- to play at +4. But for those that do, why are we punishing them for going back to help players like you do a run at +1?

Once again, I'll reiterate that there's nothing stopping you from running that +1 or +2 on a second character and mailing the rewards to your main. If you're someone who is willing to put in the effort to have multiple super-built characters, you'll get rewarded for it.

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

Once again, I'll reiterate that there's nothing stopping you from running that +1 or +2 on a second character and mailing the rewards to your main. If you're someone who is willing to put in the effort to have multiple super-built characters, you'll get rewarded for it.

This is something I am reconsidering. 

 

Still feels a bit salty in the wounds when I can't do it again on my favorite stalker and have to go play a different character. But that's neither here nor there.

 

Fundamentally it just feels incredible unnecessary to have a hurry up and wait mechanic. I'm fine if it's because the content ITSELF takes time. But an artificial 18 hours because....?

 

I don't understand the connection. 

[TomatoPhalanges]

1 minute ago, dom9630 said:

This is something I am reconsidering. 

 

Still feels a bit salty in the wounds when I can't do it again on my favorite stalker and have to go play a different character. But that's neither here nor there.

 

Fundamentally it just feels incredible unnecessary to have a hurry up and wait mechanic. I'm fine if it's because the content ITSELF takes time. But an artificial 18 hours because....?

 

I don't understand the connection. 

From what I understand, a part of it is to justify the massive payout (relative to other options) while retaining the value of the currency. If you want to make a lot of it, you gotta put a lot of effort in.

[dom9630]

Just now, TomatoPhalanges said:

From what I understand, a part of it is to justify the massive payout (relative to other options) while retaining the value of the currency. If you want to make a lot of it, you gotta put a lot of effort in.

 

Is doing it with my corruptor more or less effort than doing it on my brute?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the connection. 

[Lazarillo]

44 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

I would be a betting man right now if you started a casual ITF and invite a mix of level 35-50 level players, at least one of the level 50s is going to ask to take star so they can run it at 50+.

This is sort of related to one real hangup I see coming.  ITFs, in general, are fun to run but a pain to set up because they can be done so many different ways.  "Let a 50 have the star" is pretty much the only thing that's always agreed upon.  "Oh, this is a 3* ITF?  I wanted a 2*."  "I'm only here for the hardest diff, our team of 7 level 35s and a non-Incarnate 50 better do 4* or bust!".

 

It gets even worse because at least with the base difficulty system, you can adjust after a mission goes particularly well or poorly.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Lazarillo

[TomatoPhalanges]

3 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

 

Is doing it with my corruptor more or less effort than doing it on my brute?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing the connection. 

It's about the same (tho I'd argue slightly more due to brutes' strength as soloers comparatively), but you had to put in a not-insignificant amount of work to get both characters to levels that rival each-other in power, nor learn how to play said character. You don't just instantly have a fully decked out 50 with full T4s and IO build.

[dom9630]

Just now, TomatoPhalanges said:

It's about the same (tho I'd argue slightly more due to brutes' strength as soloers comparatively),

 

Fair.

 

1 minute ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

You don't just instantly have a fully decked out 50 with full T4s and IO build.

 

I put in a lot of work for the builds and many more. I'm going to want the coolest vanity toys to go with them all the time. What does it matter which one actually does the content?

[TomatoPhalanges]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

This is sort of related to one real hangup I see coming.  ITFs, in general, are fun to run but a pain to set up because they can be done so many different ways.  "Let a 50 have the star" is pretty much the only thing that's always agreed upon.  "Oh, this is a 3* ITF?  I wanted a 2*."  "I'm only here for the hardest diff, our team of 7 level 35s and a non-Incarnate 50 better do 4* or bust!".

Personally I'm going to be forming ITFs using phrasing like 'HM2 ITF LFM! Please come level 50 with T2 incarnates' or 'Standard ITF forming! Levels 35-50 welcome' or so on and so forth

[TomatoPhalanges]

Just now, dom9630 said:

 

Fair.

 

 

I put in a lot of work for the builds and many more. I'm going to want the coolest vanity toys to go with them all the time. What does it matter which one actually does the content?

I'm basically saying, since you have that time invested in that corrupter, you're naturally able to do more of this content than you would otherwise- you're actually being rewarded for the time investment you've put in. On top of that, because someone who hasn't put the same amount of commitment in can't do multiple, your rewards will be valued higher on the Auction House, because much less people will have them. The acquisition system of this currency means it's going to be very lucrative for players to trade.

[GM Impervium]

Hey all.

While this convo isn't rule-breaking (or anything bad really), posts in these feedback threads should be directed at the developers, and not conversations amongst ourselves.

Per GM Widower's post pinned at the top of the forum:

5. DON'T GIVE FEEDBACK ON OTHER PEOPLE'S FEEDBACK. You're here to discuss and debate the changes with the devs, not each other. The devs are big people (Huge, even) and can stand up for themselves.

Thank you!

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

I'm basically saying, since you have that time invested in that corrupter, you're naturally able to do more of this content than you would otherwise.

But I'm not able to do more of this content until an imaginary 18 hour timer goes by. If I like doing a plus +4 hardmode ITF on my stalker, once a day is all I'm getting on that stalker I enjoy playing.

 

3 minutes ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

The acquisition system of this currency means it's going to be very lucrative for players to trade.

 

I don't know if this is necessarily a good thing. This happened with PVP IOs and some purples on live to the point that almost nobody had sets of them. Again, I get that they are just vanity items and you don't -need- them, but it's still a bit of salt.

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, GM Impervium said:

Hey all.

While this convo isn't rule-breaking (or anything bad really), posts in these feedback threads should be directed at the developers, and not conversations amongst ourselves.

Per GM Widower's post pinned at the top of the forum:

5. DON'T GIVE FEEDBACK ON OTHER PEOPLE'S FEEDBACK. You're here to discuss and debate the changes with the devs, not each other. The devs are big people (Huge, even) and can stand up for themselves.

Thank you!

 

Sounds good.

[TomatoPhalanges]

4 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

Hey all.

While this convo isn't rule-breaking (or anything bad really), posts in these feedback threads should be directed at the developers, and not conversations amongst ourselves.

Per GM Widower's post pinned at the top of the forum:

5. DON'T GIVE FEEDBACK ON OTHER PEOPLE'S FEEDBACK. You're here to discuss and debate the changes with the devs, not each other. The devs are big people (Huge, even) and can stand up for themselves.

Thank you!

Understood!

[arthurh35353]

32 minutes ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

I believe it's referring to the enemy Tactics, not the team's, but I may be wrong on that

It does, on second reading. But that seems odd when you can have Nemesis spam their Vengeance (on death) ability from their Lts standard.

[Ironblade]

5 hours ago, Cobalt Arachne said:

I'll adjust the Advanced Difficulty modes so that you always get the max reward for the content you do even if you join a lower difficulty TF earlier in the day, akin to how the Incarnate Trials are set up.

Yeah, that change seems to make the system more consistent across content types.

 

With that change, I'd say this all gets a 'conditional' thumbs up.  I can't really comment on the Prismatic Aether drop rates or costume costs until I go through . . .  maybe 3 months of normal play and see where that puts me.  I do a lot of regular content and Weekly Strike Targets but don't really have a feel for how much Aether that will result in.