issue 27 Focused Feedback: Sonic Attack Revamp

[Marshal_General]

I would love to see the 12% bumped up to 20 seconds and the 8% bumped to 10% seconds so defenders will have enough tine to use their primary.

[csr]

I'd like to point out that the debuff durations on Shriek and Scream have gone UP from Live.  They are currently 5s and 7s respectively.  (Of course, most of the debuff doesn't stack now and the rest has limited stacking, but that's the payment for the buffs elsewhere.)  Shout and Screech have gone down from 10s and 12s.  However, Shout casts nearly 25% faster and so applies pretty much the same -Res*Dur/Cast as on Live (ignoring stacking).  So the nerfs to the -Res of Shriek, Scream and Shout are all now pretty much entirely in how they stack.

 

I can even get -30% Res from just using Shriek as a filler on a busy Corr, down just 2% from what I get with that tactic on Live.

 

The build flexibility is now far better than Live. 

 

And I might now even be able to use Shout in MoM iTrials without dying The Pink Death.

Edited July 19, 2022 by csr
Added some notes

[Carnifax]

Haven't had a chance to test the tweaks yet but they seem like they're in the right direction. Letting Short stack 4 times sorts some of the early Defender "penalties" and makes the Tier 2 a bit more attractive (I still think the Tier 2 and Shout should have shared their debuff instead but hey). 

 

The set is still a little late blooming with Level 28/35/38 crunch but this change would seem to ease the early game for Defenders and encourage them to stack blasts a bit more so thumbs up for that. 

[stryve]

Personally, I don't have a lot of stake in the -Res debate.  I don't tend to play at the very high end and my only Sonic Attack toon is a Sentinel, so I'm not looking at huge numbers there regardless.

 

That said, in terms of actual gameplay, I agree with Crasical from way back on Page 2 of this thread.  Even at level 50 with an at least halfway decent build (though no Incarnates yet), the set plays a lot smoother.  The changes to recharge and animation time really work well together, and the boost to Siren's Song means you can do more than plink with AoE between Dreadful Wails.  Siren's Song really does respectable damage now, which seriously helps whittle down Minions and Lieutenants.  The shorter range has always been a little odd, but I deliberately built for enough +range that it's never really been a problem for me.

 

Unfortunately, I also have to agree that the target cap reduction on Howl and Shockwave is just painful.  I was running missions at +2x8, and it's disheartening to only have about a third of a group fall over when you fire off Shockwave.  Plus, neither of those powers is doing more than Shriek per target, so it feels pretty harsh to reduce the total number of targets by 40%.  I do get trying to smooth out some of the quirks of legacy set designs, but why are melee target caps being applied to cones with a base range of 50' in the first place?  For that matter, why do cones have a target cap penalty in general?  They already pay opportunity cost for ease of use compared to targeted AoEs, especially on sets that combine several cones with a PBAoE Nova like Sonic.

 

Overall I really did like the changes, despite the target cap issue.  

[WindDemon21]

16 hours ago, stryve said:

For that matter, why do cones have a target cap penalty in general?  They already pay opportunity cost for ease of use compared to targeted AoEs, especially on sets that combine several cones with a PBAoE Nova like Sonic.

This exactly. There was NEVER a valid reason for them to not have the same target caps as ranged aoes. They all should be 16 targets where their ranged aoe counterparts are as well.

 

Edit: and 10 cap on sentinels obviously. Given nukes too which IMO should be 24 normals/16 sents.

Edited July 21, 2022 by WindDemon21

[Marshal_General]

Cones do not need a forced target cap since they have an applied one by being a cone and you are only going to get so many mobs in it.

[csr]

On 7/22/2022 at 11:54 AM, Marshal_General said:

Cones do not need a forced target cap since they have an applied one by being a cone and you are only going to get so many mobs in it.

 

The thing about Cones is that their area can be increased by +Range effects.  I believe the lower caps may have been a response to that.  If mobs were less inclined to clump up in melee, then it might make sense.

Edited July 24, 2022 by csr

[arcane]

19 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Cones do not need a forced target cap since they have an applied one by being a cone and you are only going to get so many mobs in it.

My new Sonic/Energy with Clarion Radial begs to differ 😉 

[Vhalidictes]

On 7/18/2022 at 8:26 AM, arcane said:

(2) I routinely do better solo DPS on certain corruptors/defenders than on most of my blasters.

Not anymore! 🙂

 

No, seriously, this feels like it targets me since I have Sonic/Sonic Defenders that only have the first two attacks (lots of pool powers) and those are the ones that don't stack with each other. So *my* damage took a nosedive.

 

OTOH I'll finally be able to make a Sonic Blaster that's somewhat good, so that's... not bad?

Edited July 24, 2022 by Vhalidictes

[csr]

1 hour ago, Vhalidictes said:

Not anymore! 🙂

 

No, seriously, this feels like it targets me since I have Sonic/Sonic Defenders that only have the first two attacks (lots of pool powers) and those are the ones that don't stack with each other. So *my* damage took a nosedive.

 

OTOH I'll finally be able to make a Sonic Blaster that's somewhat good, so that's... not bad?

 

The latest patch (July 18) changed the stacking.  Using just Shriek and Scream you should do slightly better DPS (due to Scream being quicker) on low HP targets, though less on high HP targets as your -Res will cap at around -44% instead of -73% (if you have high global +Rech and do nothing but spam those two attacks).

[brattycommissar2]

yeah the -res still feels a bit weak to me, think if stacks lasted longer and you could get another stack in there it'd be better... i mean i'd still prefer the live version personally but y'know

[PainX]

well you can currently proc 52,5% -res using procs in aoe powers on some sets so yes a tad low

[Kai Moon]

From a documentation point of view, I'm imagining a wiki table to lay out this cross-stacking split debuff scheme. I could cut out the archetype differences, but this much complexity would still need at least 3 to 5 columns. Might need its own separate sub-article to fit on mobile. Maybe a flowchart.

 

Am I passive-aggressively pushing for plain debuff stacking or non-stacking? Yes. I'm a jerk before coffee.

 

But I'm also serious, that table's gonna be big, and almost nobody's gonna understand it.

[drbuzzard]

Built a test sentinel to try this out (sonic/regen) and ran around Cimerora for a while. It definitely feels much better. The animation times flow together a whole lot better. It's been a while since I played my sonic sentinel on live (well played anything on live actually), but I don't think I even had howl. The damage was meh, and cones are generally annoying. The new sirens call though does some pretty solid damage, so it's in the rotation on test. 

 

I cleared a bunch of wall spawn to get a feel for it and tried out the new arc. I could definitely see myself playing a sonic once more since it's no longer in the dumps DPS wise, and the sirens cone actually does enough damage to be worth having. I have not tried a defender, so no comment as to that. Thing is, I play defenders for team only, and teams on test are few and far between, so it would be a bear to get in real testing. 

 

I've made a blaster that I need to slot up and try. I'll get around to it. 

[Here be Dragons]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:04 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

This change is a drastic buff to Sonic Attack’s damage output, both in AoE and single target performance, even with the dialed back -resistance stacking.

 

Specifically with regard to Sentinel Sonic Blast, a 40% reduction in max targets for Howl and Shockwave outweighs the dps *buff*.

And as I mentioned in the Sentinel forum, the target reduction for Shockwave also reduces the survivability for the caster (and their team), with an increase of posssibly 200% more incoming damage (assuming a group of 12 foes).

 

An increase to an individual Sonic Sentinels dps is a trivial contribution to team performance against typical level 50+ content.

 

I love the work that the Homecoming devs have been doing to add to this game. And I'm looking forward to the additional hard modes and their rewards. HOWEVER, Sentinels may actually be turned away by hard mode teams because they contribute so little. Sonic Sentinels were previously "somewhat" justifiable, but the combination of the Beta changes will extinguish that argument.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Here be Dragons