issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

What is the 5 seconds based on? All the “testing data” from the previous 8 seconds, or some new assumption (e.g., 2 toggles instead of 4), or is it just an arbitrary reduction due to all the grousing on this forum?

 

Again, you’re taking agency away from the player in a situation where it should not be. If this is going to be put in, then there should be a way to opt-out (“Null the Gull” it), so those who feel the need and desire to maintain control over it can.

yes it’s a very very small reduction in player choice but it is an excellent exchange because in return you get to do everything else you need to do for the first few seconds and then the toggles come on automatically without having to spend their animation time. It is a buff in all but a few rare circumstances.

[WindDemon21]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

yes it’s a very very small reduction in player choice but it is an excellent exchange because in return you get to do everything else you need to do for the first few seconds and then the toggles come on automatically without having to spend their animation time. It is a buff in all but a few rare circumstances.

It's actually a nerf in most but a few circumstances even with the tradeoff at 5s especially for those that NEED those toggles on and don't have a better click power to use, which aren't as affected as it is now anyway.

 

The idea is there, but 5s is still too long for those that need this the most (or even don't)

[SwitchFade]

18 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

What is the 5 seconds based on? All the “testing data” from the previous 8 seconds, or some new assumption (e.g., 2 toggles instead of 4), or is it just an arbitrary reduction due to all the grousing on this forum?

 

Again, you’re taking agency away from the player in a situation where it should not be. If this is going to be put in, then there should be a way to opt-out (“Null the Gull” it), so those who feel the need and desire to maintain control over it can.

I posted math and various situations that speak to your query.

 

Basically, let's say you get stunned... Offensive toggles drop...

 

You notice it and hit a break free, let's say 2-3 seconds elapsed from stun to break free, this is a really solid reaction time from a lot of play testing.

 

Now, on live, your toggles have been recharging since they dropped at time zero. Let's use a fire/kin controller with hot feet, 20 second base recharge, reduced to 6 seconds on my build with 170% total recharge

 

So, of that 6 seconds from time zero, 2-3s have elapsed during your stun to BF. You now have to wait 3-4 more seconds for the power to come up.

 

Now you have to retoggle, 1.7 seconds more.

 

Averages: 2.5+3.5+1.7 = 7.7 seconds from stun to run, on LIVE currently.

 

During that 7.7 seconds for a one toggle build, there's a tiny window to do one action, such as fire an attack, or use an insp. After that, you're retoggling so no attacking, no insps, no running... Nothing but retoggle.

 

Beta:

 

You get stunned, you notice it, you but BF.

 

Same math as before, you are free in 2.5 seconds.

 

But NOW, your powers will auto retoggle in 5 seconds. Total time from stun to run, 7.5-8 seconds. Exactly the same as live, but NOW you do not have to retoggle and can fire other powers during the 5 seconds between BF and autoUP. You can attack 1-2 times, or 1 attack and an insp, or toggle up a travel and jump back and insp.

 

That's a 1 toggle build. 2+ toggle builds get a buff.

 

So, this reduction from 8 seconds to 5 is now changed from a nerf to a net buff for all and QoL as well. I personally would like 4, but 5 is solid.

Edited July 30, 2022 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

9 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

It's actually a nerf in most but a few circumstances even with the tradeoff at 5s especially for those that NEED those toggles on and don't have a better click power to use, which aren't as affected as it is now anyway.

 

The idea is there, but 5s is still too long for those that need this the most (or even don't)

It is now not a nerf, as the math in the post I just made details. And play testing.

[WindDemon21]

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

It is now not a nerf, as the math in the post I just made details. And play testing.

Stun breaks free. (Toggles rech already) cast time of toggle.. even rad now can get ef and ri out in 3 seconds, with ri being the most important generally in 1.5s, not 5.

 

Other factors can play, not always a useful attack to do instead. You have to look at the lowest possible need too when averaging.

 

Given max that toggle time should be at 1.5s, lets say the average is 2, still 3 seconds (with one being applied by 1.5s already in use)

 

There are yet even other detrimental factors like the toggled enemy moving or dying etc. 5 seconds is too long.

[Starhammer]

6 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

That's why I have Toggle Turnon Macros for all my toons.  +S (in a tray slot keybound to S) to activate stealth powers and +F (in a tray slot keybound to F) to activate fighting protection powers.  There's just a few different +S macros, but the +F macros are tuned to the powersets (Primary, Secondary, Epic) of the toon and include common Pool powers.  Each press of the macro turns on one power; just press it several times over a few seconds to get them all back.

Yeah, I have it worked into my keybinds. When I hit the Jump trigger, one or two toggles turn on. So I bounce around a bit until the sequence finishes. Still, just having them suppressed until you have x End above your usage over recovery (but not with a few seconds of lockout of course). would be smooth. I'm veering off relevance though.

As for the ongoing argument about how long offensive toggles should be suppressed, what keeps going through my mind is that even if you do have numerous offensive toggles, there's always *that one* that's more important than the rest. With all of them being locked out you can't settle for just getting that one back up and running, to help you out while you wait to get any others (if you have them) going.

What if the lockout timer was a lot shorter, like 1.5-2 seconds, BUT activating an offensive toggle (while recovering from mez) reset the timer? That way, those who only use one (or only need one right away) aren't punished so heavily, but there's still a performance hit for those who depend heavily upon them, like my Dark/Rad tank, who has 4 or 5.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

Stun breaks free. (Toggles rech already) cast time of toggle.. even rad now can get ef and ri out in 3 seconds, with ri being the most important generally in 1.5s, not 5.

 

Other factors can play, not always a useful attack to do instead. You have to look at the lowest possible need too when averaging.

 

Given max that toggle time should be at 1.5s, lets say the average is 2, still 3 seconds (with one being applied by 1.5s already in use)

 

There are yet even other detrimental factors like the toggled enemy moving or dying etc. 5 seconds is too long.

Um, sorry I can't follow this at all, could you perhaps review and reword? I think maybe there are some typos and errors here.

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

It is now not a nerf, as the math in the post I just made details. And play testing

Play-testing tells me it's still a nerf. You can already take care of the "problem" with animations by utilizing a joust/kite technique but in the reverse direction. Jump backwards around a corner, hit your toggle debuff while at the peak, and be protected from return fire while you wait for a 2 second cast animation to finish.

 

That's two seconds to get the absolutely necessary for survival toggle back on, which is the only one I care about, vs 5 seconds to get that toggle plus less useful ones on all at once.

 

I think I know which I prefer. This does not pass the play test and I'm tired of the devs pretending that getting to fire one attack while running away justifies it.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Play-testing tells me it's still a nerf. You can already take care of the "problem" with animations by utilizing a joust/kite technique but in the reverse direction. Jump backwards around a corner, hit your toggle debuff while at the peak, and be protected from return fire while you wait for a 2 second cast animation to finish.

 

That's two seconds to get the absolutely necessary for survival toggle back on, which is the only one I care about, vs 5 seconds to get that toggle plus less useful ones on all at once.

 

I think I know which I prefer. This does not pass the play test and I'm tired of the devs pretending that getting to fire one attack while running away justifies it.

 

I think you're missing current toggle recharge in that equation.

 

As I laid out, I have hotfeet down to 6 second recharge from base 20. Once stunned, the toggl drops and the recharge begins, then break free 2.5s later. I still have to wait 3.5s more, the remainder of the toggle recharge, PLUS the 1.7s animation.

 

That's 5.2 seconds from the time I break free from stun to retoggle and go. Toggles do not instantly come back up when you break free, they have a recharge you have to wait for.

 

Beta is 5 seconds from break free to auto up, no retoggle required.

 

Live: 7.7 seconds stun to run, retoggle required. This is incontrovertible, because the recharge is 6 seconds and the Retoggle is 1.7 seconds.

 

Beta: 7.5 seconds stun to run, NO retoggle required. This is incontrovertible, because the lockout is 5 seconds and the stun was 2.5.

 

That's not a nerf. It does pass the math and play test.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

I think you're missing current toggle recharge in that equation

You're mistaken, if only because you want to craft a scenario that puts this change in the best light possible.

 

Whatever slotting and bonuses you're using to get Hot Feet to 6 seconds will get Darkest Night down to 4 seconds. Using a Break Free after the first 2.5 seconds means DN is up 1.5 seconds later. In that time, I've moved away, queued it up, and will be casting it as I go around a corner to break LoS.

 

That's roughly 2 seconds of time after spending 2.5 seconds under CC for a total of 4.5 seconds without a debuff active. What you're suggesting is that 7.5 seconds (2.5 CC + 5 Suppression) is somehow faster than 4.5 seconds.

 

No matter how you spin this, 7.5 will never be faster than 4.5. Sorry, but the math doesn't check out.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

 

I think you're missing current toggle recharge in that equation.

 

As I laid out, I have hotfeet down to 6 second recharge from base 20. Once stunned, the toggl drops and the recharge begins, then break free 2.5s later. I still have to wait 3.5s more, the remainder of the toggle recharge, PLUS the 1.7s animation.

 

That's 5.2 seconds from the time I break free from stun to retoggle and go. Toggles do not instantly come back up when you break free, they have a recharge you have to wait for.

 

Beta is 5 seconds from break free to auto up, no retoggle required.

 

Live: 7.7 seconds stun to run, retoggle required. This is incontrovertible, because the recharge is 6 seconds and the Retoggle is 1.7 seconds.

 

Beta: 7.5 seconds stun to run, NO retoggle required. This is incontrovertible, because the lockout is 5 seconds and the stun was 2.5.

 

That's not a nerf. It does pass the math and play test.

 

The majority of offensive toggles have base recharge times below 20s.  Most are 8s or 10s base recharge time.  With the same numbers you're using...

 

4s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 1.48s recharge.  1.48 - 2.5 = -1.02s

8s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 2.96s recharge.  2.96 - 2.5 = 0.46s

10s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 3.70s recharge.  3.70 - 2.5 = 1.20s

15s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 5.56s recharge.  5.56 - 2.5 = 2.06s

 

Presuming the player has no +RchgRdx slotted in the toggle, the 4s toggle would need an animation time of 6.02s for this to be considered a buff.  The 8s toggle would need an animation time of 5.54s.  The 10s toggle would need an animation time of 3.8s.  The 15s toggle would need an animation time of 2.94s.

 

Darkest Night has the longest animation time at 3.432s, and a base recharge time of 10s.  That leaves 0.39s of suppression.  That's for Darkest Night.  Every other toggle has a shorter animation time.

 

It's not a buff unless you're using a toggle with an excessive recharge time, or just don't bother to react to mez at all.  Go ahead, check the math.  It's falsifiable.

 

[dtj714]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

That's not a nerf. It does pass the math and play test.

Based on one specific example that just happens to have results exactly in line with the currently proposed change?  Sounds like reverse-engineered justification to me. Care to try something with less convenient maths?

[Shocktacular]

I'm wondering if there's a way to allow a player to turn off offensive toggles while mezzed and have that prevent those toggles from suffering suppression.  That way, you could de-toggle your "omg don't kill me" offensive toggle as soon as the mez hits (thus exempting it from suppression) and (presumably) have it back up and ready to go when the mez is over while still being able to use the suppression system for less critical toggles.  Of course, it would be a gamble; if the remaining recharge + animation time when the mez is over is longer than the suppression would have been you end up worse off, but you'd have to figure it out during gameplay like so many other things.  This change would allow for the new system to be used AND give the players more control to have their most critical toggles up ASAP.  I have no idea if it's possible to do this in the game code, or if anyone else thinks this is a reasonable idea/compromise. 

[Luminara]

On 7/30/2022 at 11:06 PM, Luminara said:

The majority of offensive toggles have base recharge times below 20s.  Most are 8s or 10s base recharge time.  With the same numbers you're using...

 

4s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 1.48s recharge.  1.48 - 2.5 = -1.02s

8s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 2.96s recharge.  2.96 - 2.5 = 0.46s

10s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 3.70s recharge.  3.70 - 2.5 = 1.20s

15s base recharge time / (1+1.7) = 5.56s recharge.  5.56 - 2.5 = 2.06s

 

Presuming the player has no +RchgRdx slotted in the toggle, the 4s toggle would need an animation time of 6.02s for this to be considered a buff.  The 8s toggle would need an animation time of 5.54s.  The 10s toggle would need an animation time of 3.8s.  The 15s toggle would need an animation time of 2.94s.

 

Darkest Night has the longest animation time at 3.432s, and a base recharge time of 10s.  That leaves 0.39s of suppression.  That's for Darkest Night.  Every other toggle has a shorter animation time.

 

It's not a buff unless you're using a toggle with an excessive recharge time, or just don't bother to react to mez at all.  Go ahead, check the math.  It's falsifiable.

 

Additional statistics:

 

There are 46 offensive toggles with differing recharge and animation times.  A toggle which is duplicated across archetypes but is otherwise identical in base recharge time and animation time (blaster Beta Decay and melee archetype Beta Decay, for example) is treated as a single entry in this list, as the new system will affect them comparably.  Variants of toggles which have different recharge times, animation times or both have been included.  This does includes toggles from every archetype.

 

Against All Odds - 10s recharge, 2.64s animation

Beta Decay - 10s recharge, 0.924s animation

Blazing Aura - 4s recharge, 2.244s animation

Chilling Embrace - 2s recharge, 0.924s animation
Choking Cloud - 20s recharge, 1.188s animation
Cloak of Fear - 4s recharge, 1.32s animation
Conductive Aura - 15s recharge, 2.244s animation

Darkest Night - 10s recharge, 3.432s animation
Darkest Night - 10s recharge, 2.508s animation
Darkest Night - 40s recharge, 3.432s animation
Death Shroud - 4s recharge, 2.64s animation
Dimension Shift - 60s recharge, 1.32s animation
Disruption Aura - 10s recharge, 2.112s animation
Disruption Field - 8s recharge, 2.904s animation
Dynamo - 10s recharge, 2.244s animation

Enervating Field - 8s recharge, 1.716s animation
Enflame - 10s recharge, 2.244s animation
Entangling Aura - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Entropic Aura - 10s recharge, 0.924s animation
Evolving Armor - 10s recharge, 3.168s animation

Force Bubble - 15s recharge, 1.32s animation

Genetic Contamination - 4s recharge, 1.32s animation

Hot Feet - 20s recharge, 1.716s animation
Hurricane - 10s recharge, 2.244s animation

Icicles - 4s recharge, 1.848s animation
Irradiated Ground - 4s recharge, 2.244s animation

Lightning Field - 10s recharge, 2.244s animation

Mud Bath - 4s recharge, 2.244s animation
Mud Pots - 4s recharge, 2.244s animation

Oppressive Gloom - 8s recharge, 1.32s animation
Orbiting Death - 4s recharge, 2.244s animation

Quills - 15s recharge, 0.924s animation

Radiation Infection - 8s recharge, 1.716s animation
Repulsion Field - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Repulsion Field - 40s recharge, 2.244s animation
Rise to the Challenge - 10s recharge, 3.168s animation

Snow Storm - 40s recharge, 2.244s animation
Snow Storm - 10s recharge, 2.244s animation
Snow Storm - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Sonic Repulsion - 8s recharge, 2.508s animation
Spore Cloud - 8s recharge, 3.3s animation

Telekinesis - 60s recharge, 1.32s animation 
Time's Juncture - 10s recharge, 0.924s animation

Venomous Gas - 8s recharge, 2.244s animation

World of Confusion - 10s recharge, 1.848s animation
World of Confusion - 15s recharge, 1.848s animation

 

36 of those, ~78.3% of all offensive toggles in the game, have base recharge times at or below 15s, 10, ~21.7% of all offensive toggles, have base recharge times at or above 20s.  I stated in the quoted post, the majority of offensive toggles have recharge times below 20s.  This list verifies that, and justifies the addition of the adjective "overwhelming".  The overwhelming majority of offensive toggles, more than three fourths, have recharge times below 20s.

 

There are three variants of Darkest Night, with differing recharge and animation times.

Darkest Night - 10s recharge, 3.432s animation
Darkest Night - 10s recharge, 2.508s animation
Darkest Night - 40s recharge, 3.432s animation
 

There are three variants of Snow Storm, with differing recharge times.
Snow Storm - 10s recharge, 2.244s animation
Snow Storm - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Snow Storm - 40s recharge, 2.244s animation

 

There are two variants of Repulsion Field, with differing recharge times.

Repulsion Field - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Repulsion Field - 40s recharge, 2.244s animation
 

There are two variants of World of Confusion, with differing recharge times.

World of Confusion - 10s recharge, 1.848s animation
World of Confusion - 15s recharge, 1.848s animation

 

Here are the 10 offensive toggles with base recharge times at or above 20s:

Choking Cloud - 20s recharge, 1.188s animation
Darkest Night - 40s recharge, 3.432s animation (*PP variant)
Dimension Shift - 60s recharge, 1.32s animation
Entangling Aura - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Hot Feet - 20s recharge, 1.716s animation
Repulsion Field - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation
Repulsion Field - 40s recharge, 2.244s animation (*PP variant)
Snow Storm - 20s recharge, 2.244s animation (*PP variant)
Snow Storm - 40s recharge, 2.244s animation (*PP variant)
Telekinesis - 60s recharge, 1.32s animation

 

2 offensive toggles have a recharge time of 60s, 2 have a recharge time of 40s, 5 have a recharge time of 20s, 4 have a recharge time of 15s, 15 have a recharge time of 10s, 7 have a recharge time of 8s, 9 have a recharge time of 4s, and 1 has a recharge time of 2s.  The most common base recharge time is 10s (~33% of all offensive toggles).

 

2 offensive toggles have an animation time of 3.432s, 1 has an animation time of 3.3s, 2 have an animation time of 3.168s, 1 has an animation time of 2.904s, 2 have an animation time of 2.64s, 2 have an animation time of 2.508s, 17 have an animation time of 2.244s, 1 has an animation time of 2.112s, 3 have an animation time of 1.848s, 3 have an animation time of 1.716s, 6 have an animation time of 1.32s, 1 has an animation time of 1.188s, and 5 have an animation time of 0.924s.  The most common animation time is 2.244s (~37% of all offensive toggles).

 

The two "most common" statistics give us a glimpse into the development thought process.  10 / (1+0.9 (Hasten + Increase Attack Speed empowerment buff, SO-only solo build)) = 5.26.  5.26 - 2.5 (Break Free time) = 2.76s recharge time remaining.  2.76 + 2.244 (animation time) = 5.00.  This is likely how they arrived at 5s for the revised suppression duration.  However, 20 of these toggles, ~42.5% of all offensive toggles, have recharge times at or below 10s and animation times shorter than 2.244s (example: Beta Decay - all version have a base recharge time of 10s and animation time of 0.924s), and will experience a lockout period when the player would otherwise be able to use them (will have already recharged and had time to animate, but still suppressed).  And that's only factoring SO-only solo builds.  For IO builds, for builds using Alphas with RchgRdx/Ageless/Lore pets with +Rchg buffs, for builds with inherent means of global +Rchg, builds using the Offense amplifier and/or Cross Punch's +Rchg buff, and for players who team with anyone who has a +Rchg buff, toggles with base recharge times of 15s will also fall into the lockout category.

 

Accounting for other variables, such as power slotting, IO sets, IO set global +Rchg bonuses (~79% of these toggles allow IO set usage), Alphas, +Rchg bonuses from powers in primaries, secondaries and pool powers, additional +Rchg sources, and teammates with +Rchg buffs, which we can see now was not done in the initial proposal or the revision, it would be wise to tack on another ~50%, minimum, to the Rchg value, to provide a more realistic representation.  10 / (1+1.4) = 4.17.  4.17 - 2.5 = 1.67.  1.67 + 2.244 = 3.91s.

 

4s would be statistically appropriate.  It will still add an arbitrary penalty to toggles with shorter recharge or animation times, powers which would be better served by a 3-3.5s duration, but most of us could live with it.  5s is not balanced, it is not a duration derived from a thorough examination of the pertinent details, and it will incentivize avoidance of offensive toggles in favor of buffs, which, as I previously explained, are already grossly imbalanced by comparison and largely responsible for the power creep problem pervading the game.  And if it's 5s or nothing, nothing is the superior alternative.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Luminara
Dark Armor is a crafty beast, capable of deceiving old eyes

[SwitchFade]

8 hours ago, dtj714 said:

Based on one specific example that just happens to have results exactly in line with the currently proposed change?  Sounds like reverse-engineered justification to me. Care to try something with less convenient maths?

Sure.

 

SO builds that I have with additional data points for comparison

 

Live stun to run is recharge+animation

Beta to compare to all below is stun recovery average at 2s + 5s lockout = 7.5s

 

-darkest night with no recharge SO, recharges in 10 seconds + 3.4s animation = 13.4s

-darkest night with 1 rech SO, recharges in 7.5 seconds + 3.4s animation = 10.9s

-darkest night with no rech SO with hasten, recharges in 6s + 3.4s animation = 9.4s

 

-Rad infection with no rech SO, recharges in 8 seconds + 3.3s animation = 11.3s

-rad infection with 1 rech SO, recharges in 6 seconds + animation of 3.3s = 9.3s

-rad infection withbno rech SO with hasten, recharges in 4.7s + 3.3s animation = 8s

 

-enervating field with no rech SO, recharges in 8s + animation time of 1.7s = 9.7s

-enervating field with 1 rech SO, recharges in 6 seconds + animation of 1.7s = 7.7s

-enervating field with no rech SO with hasten, recharges in 4.7s + animation of 1.7s = 6.4s

 

-hurricane with no rech SO, recharges in 10s + animation time of 1.7s = 11.7s

-hurricane with 1 rech SO, recharges in 7.5s + animation time of 2.2s = 9.7s

-hurricane with no rech SO with hasten, recharges in 6s + animation time of 2.2s = 8.2s

 

-beta decay with no rech SO, recharges in 9 seconds + animation time of 1s = 10s

-beta decay with 1 rech SO, recharges in 7s + animation of 1s = 8s

-beta decay with no SO with hasten, recharges in 5.5s + animation of 1s = 6.5s

 

For all builds noted above, typical SO slotting never includes a recharge SO in a toggle, this was posted for data comparison only

 

Hasten is up only 120s of 265s, less than 50% of the time, so all above hasten builds will be half of the time with hasten half with no SO and no hasten. This is why no SO and no hasten was included as a data point.

 

These are real toons I have. Comparing every single build variation live to beta, in all cases, every build here is a net buff on beta.

 

SO builds are the balance point for all changes as I have mentioned before. I chose an extreme outlier with 170% recharge and the longest recharge toggle as a comparison of an outlier.

 

And AGAIN, as I said I prefer a further adjustment to the lockout to 4s, but as it 5s is a net buff for builds noted above from controllers, defender and tankers. An 8s toggle on a toon with 170% global recharge is an outlier and cannot be the median balance point.

 

This doesn't even take into account 2 and 3 toggle builds on SOs or even IOs, as the build permutations are vast. I assumed everyone would be thorough and proactive enough to math and test this before dogpiling, MY BAD, I guess I had to do the text wall for you. This is a net buff for most builds, as I have said. It still needs to be 4s, but I did mention 5s is a good place to test and tweak from.

 

I'm typing all this on a phone, for those of you machine gunning replies without patience to wait for a response 😊

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Sure.

 

SO builds that I have with additional data points for comparison

 

Live stun to run is recharge+animation

Beta to compare to all below is stun recovery average at 2s + 5s lockout = 7.5s

 

-darkest night with no recharge SO, recharges in 10 seconds + 3.4s animation = 13.4s

-darkest night with 1 rech SO, recharges in 7.5 seconds + 3.4s animation = 10.9s

-darkest night with no rech SO with hasten, recharges in 6s + 3.4s animation = 9.4s

 

-Rad infection with no rech SO, recharges in 8 seconds + 3.3s animation = 11.3s

-rad infection with 1 rech SO, recharges in 6 seconds + animation of 3.3s = 9.3s

-rad infection withbno rech SO with hasten, recharges in 4.7s + 3.3s animation = 8s

 

-enervating field with no rech SO, recharges in 8s + animation time of 1.7s = 9.7s

-enervating field with 1 rech SO, recharges in 6 seconds + animation of 1.7s = 7.7s

-enervating field with no rech SO with hasten, recharges in 4.7s + animation of 1.7s = 6.4s

 

-hurricane with no rech SO, recharges in 10s + animation time of 1.7s = 11.7s

-hurricane with 1 rech SO, recharges in 7.5s + animation time of 2.2s = 9.7s

-hurricane with no rech SO with hasten, recharges in 6s + animation time of 2.2s = 8.2s

 

-beta decay with no rech SO, recharges in 9 seconds + animation time of 1s = 10s

-beta decay with 1 rech SO, recharges in 7s + animation of 1s = 8s

-beta decay with no SO with hasten, recharges in 5.5s + animation of 1s = 6.5s

 

For all builds noted above, typical SO slotting never includes a recharge SO in a toggle, this was posted for data comparison only

 

Hasten is up only 120s of 265s, less than 50% of the time, so all above hasten builds will be half of the time with hasten half with no SO and no hasten. This is why no SO and no hasten was included as a data point.

 

These are real toons I have. Comparing every single build variation live to beta, in all cases, every build here is a net buff on beta.

 

SO builds are the balance point for all changes as I have mentioned before. I chose an extreme outlier with 170% recharge and the longest recharge toggle as a comparison of an outlier.

 

And AGAIN, as I said I prefer a further adjustment to the lockout to 4s, but as it 5s is a net buff for builds noted above from controllers, defender and tankers. An 8s toggle on a toon with 170% global recharge is an outlier and cannot be the median balance point.

 

This doesn't even take into account 2 and 3 toggle builds on SOs or even IOs, as the build permutations are vast. I assumed everyone would be thorough and proactive enough to math and test this before dogpiling, MY BAD, I guess I had to do the text wall for you. This is a net buff for most builds, as I have said. It still needs to be 4s, but I did mention 5s is a good place to test and tweak from.

 

I'm typing all this on a phone, for those of you machine gunning replies without patience to wait for a response 😊

How dare you take the time to do all this research and math to back up your position on the matter. What kind of monster are you!?

[ForeverLaxx]

13 hours ago, Shocktacular said:

I'm wondering if there's a way to allow a player to turn off offensive toggles while mezzed and have that prevent those toggles from suffering suppression.  That way, you could de-toggle your "omg don't kill me" offensive toggle as soon as the mez hits (thus exempting it from suppression) and (presumably) have it back up and ready to go when the mez is over while still being able to use the suppression system for less critical toggles.  Of course, it would be a gamble; if the remaining recharge + animation time when the mez is over is longer than the suppression would have been you end up worse off, but you'd have to figure it out during gameplay like so many other things.  This change would allow for the new system to be used AND give the players more control to have their most critical toggles up ASAP.  I have no idea if it's possible to do this in the game code, or if anyone else thinks this is a reasonable idea/compromise. 

That was suggested pretty early on and, from what I understood of the dev response to it, that it's not really a thing they can do. Your character is just flagged with a suppression timer once mez ends, so even if you de-toggle manually in order to wait for recharge instead, if that suppression timer is still active your toggle still won't do anything until that timer is up.

[Shocktacular]

Oh, okay.  I either missed that info or forgot about it.  Thanks,

[csr]

9 hours ago, Luminara said:

Dark Regeneration - 30s recharge, 1.32s animation

 

Out of curiosity... which version of Dark Regeneration is a toggle?  I thought they were all clicks.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

SO builds are the balance point for all changes as I have mentioned before.

 

SOs are the balance point.

 

SOs in a vacuum are not.  Individual powers slotted with SOs in a vacuum are not.

 

You included Hasten in your analysis, and a single +Recharge SO, but failed to account for other variables.  RI and EF are in Radiation Emission, a set which also happens to have Accelerate Metabolism, but the recharge times on your Rad toggles don't reflect AM's buff.  You use the current animation time for RI, rather than the reduced animation time, which is irrelevant in an examination of the effects of the new suppression.

 

Empowerment buffs have been made easily obtainable, no prestige, no farming.  It doesn't even take two minutes to make a supergroup, enter a basic base, drop a couple of empowerment stations and have access to empowerment buffs, and that's if the player isn't part of an established SG with their own base.  The only expense is salvage and the buff lasts 90 minutes.  Even I have begun using empowerment buffs, and I'm one of "those people" who don't use temporary powers, or inspirations.

 

Offense amplifiers are just a step above free at level 1, can be stacked up to 8 hours and add 15% global +Recharge.  Over and over again, people on the forums have pointed out that all one has to do is take the free inspiration generator, sell the inspirations on the market and have 8 hours of Offense amplifier time, with change left over.

 

In any power with no +Recharge slotted, slotted +Recharge can be substituted for global +Recharge.  Yes, you added comparisons with single SOs, but nothing for two SOs, nothing for frankenslotted level 20/25 set IOs (which adheres to SO baselines and, in eschewing set bonuses, the spirit of the restriction).  Most all of these toggles can slot set IOs and benefit significantly from frankenslotting.  All of them could be slotted with a second Recharge SO and benefit, and we're not talking about scavenging a build for a dozen slots, we're talking about adding one or two slots to each toggle, which equates to one or two slots total for most builds.

 

Nothing touching on buffs from teammates, either.  Someone playing strictly by the SO standard is statistically likely to be teaming, since the HC team has stated that the modern performance expectation for solo characters is 3 +3 minions, rather than the 3 +0 minions as it was at launch.  3 +3 minions is IO and set territory.

 

And this is without going into post-50 Incarnate stuff, which further skews the metric.

 

Point being, failure to account for variables is why toggle mutual exclusivity was axed.  Failure to account for variables is why GDN was implemented.  Failure to account for variables is why the purple patch was added.  Failure to account for variables is why ED happened.  Failure to account for variables is why PvP went through multiple revamps and still hemorrhaged players.

 

Don't examine this in a vacuum, because it's not happening in a vacuum.  Every variable not properly accounted for will bite you on the ass later.

[Luminara]

16 hours ago, csr said:

 

Out of curiosity... which version of Dark Regeneration is a toggle?  I thought they were all clicks.

 

None, you're right.  There are so many toggles in Dark Armor, and my eyes are 50 years old, I couldn't tell what I was looking at.  Good catch, thank you.

 

Fixed.  Again, thank you.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Luminara

[WindDemon21]

On 7/31/2022 at 11:46 AM, Luminara said:

Dimension Shift - 60s recharge, 1.32s animation

There are more but just making the quote smaller lol, but there are also toggles like this and telekinesis, those 40s recharges on those tanker toggles etc, and tons still there that should also have a max cast time of 1.5 seconds not their current 3s etc cast times. This is just off of current values, and not what should also be looked at to be fixed.

 

Though technically toggles, either their rech being lowered, or vs use dimension shift and telekinesis (which honestly just scrapped altogether IMO but needs serious tweaks), I feel like these powers shouldn't even be considered in this equation. You were doing the right thing, I'm just pointing out that there are (even without this change) already existing problems with certain powers and cast times that should honestly be addressed first before these calculations (like darkest night, again 1.5s should be the max cast time for these types of powers.)

[brass_eagle]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:46 AM, Luminara said:

 

<great darn blurb>

 

4s would be statistically appropriate.  It will still add an arbitrary penalty to toggles with shorter recharge or animation times, powers which would be better served by a 3-3.5s duration, but most of us could live with it.  5s is not balanced, it is not a duration derived from a thorough examination of the pertinent details, and it will incentivize avoidance of offensive toggles in favor of buffs, which, as I previously explained, are already grossly imbalanced by comparison and largely responsible for the power creep problem pervading the game.  And if it's 5s or nothing, nothing is the superior alternative.

 

Bolded and Italicized the important point in my mind. This change is a much requested QoL change, but --with current implementation-- it hinders some powers / builds. I don't get why this change needs to be a trade-off. I don't get it at all. Offensive Toggles are already subject to outside effects (level differences). I don't recall a sweeping discussion or penalty when non-offensive toggles were changed on live.

 

As you said, I guess I can live with it. This fervent discussion is great because this is not a balance issue that will be revisited again once finalized (IMO).

Edited August 3, 2022 by brass_eagle
I'm totally eloquent the 3rd time

[dtj714]

On 7/31/2022 at 1:13 PM, SwitchFade said:

 

These are real toons I have. Comparing every single build variation live to beta, in all cases, every build here is a net buff on beta.

 

Before you had 170% recharge. Now, at MOST, it’s Hasten only? Maybe the 170% was an “outlier” (you didn’t represent it as such at the time), but so is Hasten only. If you’re going to take Hasten, then recharge is important to you, and you’re going to get as much it as you can. 

 

I think I’ll take Luminara’s maths.

Edited August 3, 2022 by dtj714
Edit

[dtj714]

On 8/1/2022 at 1:57 PM, Luminara said:

 

None, you're right.  There are so many toggles in Dark Armor, and my eyes are 50 years old, I couldn't tell what I was looking at.  Good catch, thank you.

 

Fixed.  Again, thank you.

I think you also missed Inky Aspect?