Most potent debuffs/buffs

[Xandyr]

Hey all. Looking into rolling a Corruptor. I've always liked debuffs, but I'm hearing with the new "hard" mode, buffs are better. Thoughts on that?

 And if I did want to roll a toon that would offer the best debuffs (especially for the extreme hard mode), what would you recommend?

 

TIA

 

- X

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Lots of good thoughts on that front in this thread:

 

[Doomguide2005]

Long answer^

 

Short answer you want them both.  The difference from most content is for the really hard stuff you want the buffs first.  Surviving long enough to lay down the debuffs and let the damage dealing go to town is the priority.

[Xandyr]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Lots of good thoughts on that front in this thread:

 

Thanks @Bill Z Bubba. I've been following that thread as well. I already rolled  a /Poison, but someone told me that it sucks (have to be in melee to benefit from the T9, and a Corr couldn't survive in melee).

 I love EA on my MM. Not sure if i want to have an /EA Corruptor since i have 2 MMs with it.

[biostem]

21 minutes ago, Xandyr said:

Hey all. Looking into rolling a Corruptor. I've always liked debuffs, but I'm hearing with the new "hard" mode, buffs are better. Thoughts on that?

 And if I did want to roll a toon that would offer the best debuffs (especially for the extreme hard mode), what would you recommend?

It's tough because some things look good "on paper", but come up wanting in practice.  For instance, poison has some very potent debuffs, but in practice, the small AoEs make it a finicky set to use...

[Doomguide2005]

7 minutes ago, Xandyr said:

Thanks @Bill Z Bubba. I've been following that thread as well. I already rolled  a /Poison, but someone told me that it sucks (have to be in melee to benefit from the T9, and a Corr couldn't survive in melee).

 I love EA on my MM. Not sure if i want to have an /EA Corruptor since i have 2 MMs with it.

I'm sure that a Corruptor could survive but you have to bear in mind that first priority --> buffs sending your defense and resists waaay up backed by absorb and heals.  

[Psyonico]

Nature and EA are generally the top two sets for really hard content, they're more on the buff side of things though.

 

Rad/Sonic defenders were considered the king of things before IOs/incarnates were around, so doing the corruptor version sold still be viable, though you'd have to invest pretty heavily in self defense and you don't provide a whole lot of defense for your team (at least until you start firing vengeance + fallout)

[SeraphimKensai]

8 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Thanks @Bill Z Bubba. I've been following that thread as well. I already rolled  a /Poison, but someone told me that it sucks (have to be in melee to benefit from the T9, and a Corr couldn't survive in melee).

 I love EA on my MM. Not sure if i want to have an /EA Corruptor since i have 2 MMs with it.

I have 2 poison toons one a defender and the other a corruptor that have no issues in melee even against an AV. They just need to be built for it.

[Hjarki]

27 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I have 2 poison toons one a defender and the other a corruptor that have no issues in melee even against an AV. They just need to be built for it.

Poison has no innate resist or defense, so it's a bit like saying that your */Energy Blaster has no issues in melee even against an AV. Sure... if you're not talking about particularly challenging enemies. But once you're dealing with content where you have massive hit/defense shifts towards the hard cap, what you can do with just pool powers gets overwhelmed.

 

Poison also gets a lot of its durability from a toggle debuff aura without having any status protection. If even one lucky control effect sneaks through, that debuff aura shuts down - and you go down very, very quickly.

 

With that in mind, most such discussions involve implicit and subjective assumptions that aren't really justified. Ultimately, a full team of Fire/Energy Blasters with properly timed Barrier Incarnates can probably do anything these 'most potent' support sets can do with regards to survival.

 

[SeraphimKensai]

Poison on a corruptor can get up to -60% damage, and up to -32.5% tohit buff before factoring in anything like a Powerboost or Clarion Radial.

 

So while they may not be innate resistance and defense, they act the same in functionality. Yes some mobs will resist the effects to a degree, but we're talking about building out a toon on IOs to supplement the effects of it's power. Additionally yes Venomous Gas is a toggle, 95% of anyone running offensive based toggles that have anywhere near as much effectiveness as Venomous Gas are running Clarion, otherwise you can also use Rune to supplement when Clarion Radial is on CD.

 

And yes you can build a fire/em blaster to do well also, along with any other powerset or at, but we're talking about Poison Corruptors here.

[Doomguide2005]

Well yes and no.  Debuffs are higher risk than their opposing buffs.  You (and the team) have no additional protection prior to the debuff taking effect and generally have to apply a greater value debuff for an equally effective mathematical value of buff as the foe resists the debuff via things like the purple patch.  And that's assuming the debuff autohits or auto-applies otherwise that's another hurdle which is not a given the way it might be considered even in difficult but 'normal' content.  So while a PB To Hit debuff will effectively make you as hard to hit as a defense buff of equal value it does carry more risk to apply to gain that benefit for you and the team, risks that being buffed doesn't carry.  Add in factors like ambush spawns, spike damage, heightened perception, spawn placement and aggro/threat it's easier to get into trouble if you are needing to survive with debuffs alone.   Applying debuffs whose net value is pushing 40% on top of 45% softcap doable but how are we doing if 3 or 4 Melt Armors get tossed out while several foes further buff their To Hit with Tactics on top of that.

[Hjarki]

36 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Applying debuffs whose net value is pushing 40% on top of 45% softcap doable but how are we doing if 3 or 4 Melt Armors get tossed out while several foes further buff their To Hit with Tactics on top of that.

If your opponents are throwing Melt Armor, the purple patch is no longer an advantage in the buff vs. debuff debate since your buffs are getting shredded at a purple patch-increased rate.

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Hjarki said:

If your opponents are throwing Melt Armor, the purple patch is no longer an advantage in the buff vs. debuff debate since your buffs are getting shredded at a purple patch-increased rate.

I don't entirely follow you.  Yes their debuffs are stronger.  And you'll be vulnerable as a debuffer to those stronger incoming debuffs.  The buffs themselves, however, are unaffected they just need to meet a higher threshold to stay at the cap.  Again mechanically that's like saying the debuffs also need to be stronger, but the difference is the buffs should already be in place including any "extra" to account for debuffs that get through.  Less risk from ambushes etc., just as earlier.  That's the advantage of buffs over debuffs they are already in-place unlike any corresponding debuffs.

[Xandyr]

Looking over TA, and it seems like a great addition to a team. Especially since Acid Arrow lowers the enemies' resistances to debuffs. Interesting...

And even thought I have /EA on a couple of MMs....can never go wrong with it.

[SeraphimKensai]

27 minutes ago, Xandyr said:

Looking over TA, and it seems like a great addition to a team. Especially since Acid Arrow lowers the enemies' resistances to debuffs. Interesting...

And even thought I have /EA on a couple of MMs....can never go wrong with it.

TA is probably my fav debuffing set in the game. Hell I might be crazy but I even played it on live before the changes to it here. try a Fire/TA/Dark Corruptor. Glue everything down, pop Souldrain,  debuffs, OSA and rain down brimstone.

[Doomguide2005]

Absolutely TA would be one of the first debuffers I'd love to see.

[Hjarki]

4 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I don't entirely follow you.

Their stronger debuffs have the same impact as if you just applied the purple patch to your buffs. If you're fighting enemies with significant debuffs, then the purple patch is no advantage for buffs.

 

Let's say you've got a Time Defender against a Trick Arrow Defender. The Time Defender increases Defense by 12.5%. The Trick Arrow Defender decreases it by -25%. If our Trick Arrow Defender gets 1.4x from purple patch, this means the Time Defender is at -22.5% defense instead of -12.5% defense.

 

The notion that the purple patch "doesn't affect buffs" stops being meaningful once your opponents start throwing around debuffs. At that point, the ramp-up in effectiveness on their debuffs effectively means that the purple patch is crippling your buffs just as much (if not more) than it cripples your debuffs.

 

You've also got to consider that debuffs are generally larger than buffs. That 12.5% Time Defender +defense is matched by 18.75% Trick Arrow -hit. Even Force Field is only 15% defense from a single power.

 

[Carnifax]

7 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

TA is probably my fav debuffing set in the game. Hell I might be crazy but I even played it on live before the changes to it here. try a Fire/TA/Dark Corruptor. Glue everything down, pop Souldrain,  debuffs, OSA and rain down brimstone.

Also a member of the "Before it got buffed" fanclub. On Homecoming it's a fantastic set now. 

 

It's happy at range or in close (you can just fire debuffs point-blank as I do on my TA/Elec or from afar as I do with my Grav/Trick Arrow Controller). Even if they scatter (Warwolves) they'll still be carrying the Flash Arrow debuff. 

 

Plus it's got lovely quick animation times. You can very quickly debuff things to hell. 

[Xandyr]

Debating on pulling the trigger on a Dark/EA. Thoughts on this combo?

[Doomguide2005]

10 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Their stronger debuffs have the same impact as if you just applied the purple patch to your buffs. If you're fighting enemies with significant debuffs, then the purple patch is no advantage for buffs.  <snip> ...

 

     Point taken, I'll even agree with you in regards to your point about debuffs and the Purple Patch.  But the biggest factor favoring the use of buffs vs debuffs to my mind is they're in place before any combat occurs.  A debuffer has to get in position and employ those abilities to be able to use their debuffs for benefit.  Any situation within the content which hinders that usage prior to foe aggro occurring can result in the debuffers death/disablement before those debuffs are in place.  And that in turn can result in teammates dying or getting badly debuffed themselves as they aren't protected either. 

 

     As for TA itself, it has been a while since I've played the set (back on Live) but I'm seeing 3 powers that I think can be used from behind total cover (negating a major advantage offered by buffs) -> Glue Arrow, Disruption Arrow, and OSA.  Does memory (and CoD 2.0, i.e. target=Location) serve me correctly?  

     And last some of the buff advantage can be overcome by player knowledge, i.e. becoming familiar with mob placement, ambush triggers, map layouts etc., enabling the team to more easily plan their tactics with that foreknowledge.  But that only exists after running the content and buffs don't require nearly the same degree of player foreknowledge upon entering a mission for the first time ever.

[Hjarki]

40 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Point taken, I'll even agree with you in regards to your point about debuffs and the Purple Patch.  But the biggest factor favoring the use of buffs vs debuffs to my mind is they're in place before any combat occurs.

I generally agree. From a practical standpoint, you can stack an infinite number of buffs but you're likely to get only one shot at a debuff. Since debuffs (generally) need to be used during combat rather than before, considerations like activation time are far more important than they are for buffs. Indeed, one of the major advantages of Flash Arrow is that it breaks this pattern by allowing you to debuff prior to combat (in most cases).

 

My overall rule tends to be "buff defensively, debuff offensively" for this reason. But this also covers cases such as using Power Boost to create a temporary window of defense sufficient to layer in debuffs.

[SeraphimKensai]

53 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

As for TA itself, it has been a while since I've played the set (back on Live) but I'm seeing 3 powers that I think can be used from behind total cover (negating a major advantage offered by buffs) -> Glue Arrow, Disruption Arrow, and OSA.  Does memory (and CoD 2.0, i.e. target=Location) serve me correctly?  

With powexec_location you can fire any targeted location based power without line of sight subject to range, so you can shoot them around the corner.

[Doomguide2005]

4 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

With powexec_location you can fire any targeted location based power without line of sight subject to range, so you can shoot them around the corner.

Excellent, thanks for the update to my knowledge.  Certainly helps with survival overall but especially to debuff foes without risk of immediate return fire

 

[JayboH]

Part of the problem with Poison is the really bonkers way it calcs its AOE.  It only goes half-strength to foes outside of the target and the range is really small.  They designed it initially to have you debuff other mobs to layer the debuffs to get the full benefit which just makes the set weaker in my eyes as other sets can get on with the damage by then.

 

I am a big, big fan of Trick Arrow though, to chime in with the rest, after its revamp.

[SeraphimKensai]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

Part of the problem with Poison is the really bonkers way it calcs its AOE.  It only goes half-strength to foes outside of the target and the range is really small.  They designed it initially to have you debuff other mobs to layer the debuffs to get the full benefit which just makes the set weaker in my eyes as other sets can get on with the damage by then.

 

I am a big, big fan of Trick Arrow though, to chime in with the rest, after its revamp.

For what poison is designed for it can be stronger if you can layer the actual targeted debuffs and the small AoE debuffs (they stack), it's just a pretty small AoE splash range. It's really designed for encounters like Rommy on ITF where he has some adds to help stack the debuffs.