Focused Feedback: Reward Merits

[Dokam]

2 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

 

Removing veteran levels from Mission Architect, in and of itself, was a fine compromise considering that the issue is the convergence of Empyrean merits via veteran levels and Mission Architect, considering that veteran levels should never have granted Empyrean merits in the first place.

Honestly it was,  If the intent is to cut down on emp merit farming via vet levels,  Id prefer the amount of emp merits gained through vet levels to be adjusted down (or even taken away >:D muahaha) as long as more of the incarnate content (Dark astoria, itrials, etc..) would actually reward more emp merits than they barely do now.   Leave the conversion stuff alone at that point though.

[Stormwalker]

2 hours ago, Dokam said:

Honestly it was,  If the intent is to cut down on emp merit farming via vet levels,  Id prefer the amount of emp merits gained through vet levels to be adjusted down (or even taken away >:D muahaha) as long as more of the incarnate content (Dark astoria, itrials, etc..) would actually reward more emp merits than they barely do now.   Leave the conversion stuff alone at that point though.

 

As you might imagine, those of us who are relatively new (and thus don't already have massive piles of Emp merits with which to craft Incarnate abilities for our alts) would be... less than thrilled with this solution.

 

For that matter, forget alts, I still don't have T4 on all slots on the two 50's I already have!

Edited July 22, 2022 by Stormwalker

[DarknessEternal]

20 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

As you might imagine, those of us who are relatively new (and thus don't already have massive piles of Emp merits with which to craft Incarnate abilities for our alts) would be... less than thrilled with this solution.

 

For that matter, forget alts, I still don't have T4 on all slots on the two 50's I already have!

Thank you for showing there are new people that this change punitively targets, as has been mentioned.

 

The only people ok with this change are the existing oligarchy.  Who cares what they think when all they want is to keep everyone else off their level.

[Stormwalker]

8 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Thank you for showing there are new people that this change punitively targets, as has been mentioned.

 

The only people ok with this change are the existing oligarchy.  Who cares what they think when all they want is to keep everyone else off their level.

 

Oh, I'm actually not terribly bothered by not being able to convert Emps to Reward Merits anymore (though it's not an ideal solution, and I like some of the ideas on having a cooldown on conversions much better).  I was responding to the person who suggested removing Emp merits from Vet levels entirely.

[Dokam]

49 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

As you might imagine, those of us who are relatively new (and thus don't already have massive piles of Emp merits with which to craft Incarnate abilities for our alts) would be... less than thrilled with this solution.

 

For that matter, forget alts, I still don't have T4 on all slots on the two 50's I already have!

Tinpex, Itrials, Dark astoria story missions, Weekly tfs, all are the main ways I craft T4s (From actual drops from the reward tables instead of e merits mostly).  Using Vet merits for T4s is kinda expensive. 

[Stormwalker]

6 minutes ago, Dokam said:

Tinpex, Itrials, Dark astoria story missions, Weekly tfs, all are the main ways I craft T4s (From actual drops from the reward tables instead of e merits mostly).  Using Vet merits for T4s is kinda expensive. ose

 

I've managed to craft three of the six T4's on one of my 50's using entirely threads obtained from drops and Emp Merits obtained from Veteran levels.  Well and a little bit of stuff from running Incarnate story arcs (but not much).   I had to do it this way, because of the sound-stacking problem (which is, thankfully, fixed in Page 4) making teaming a very unpleasant experience for me (sound sensitivity issues, and so on).

 

I'll have the ability to actually do some of that content once Page 4 goes live, and that will certainly be nice, and I will certainly make some Emp Merits that way.  But I have 37 characters, and only two of them are level 50 right now.  I'm going to need a whole lot of Empyrean Merits to craft all their Incarnate abilities when they get to 50!  So every single source of those Emp merits is valuable to me, and I"d be very unhappy if something that players have been able to leverage since HC launched that enabled them to get their Incarnate abilities built out, was suddenly taken away now just as I'm beginning to  benefit from it.

 

But the point is, many, many players in this game have massive stockpiles of Emp. Merits.  They can craft all the T4's for a character as soon as they have the slots unlocked.  Because they've been playing a long time and earning Emp. Merits for a long time.  They got that in part because they had access to those free Empyrean merits from veteran levels.  Those of us who are relatively new don't have those stockpiles, and if you take them away you're just creating a massive mountain to climb that previous players didn't have to.

 

On the flip side, I honestly don't care if they take away Empyrean Merit to Reward Merit conversions.  I'm not going to be converting Emp Merits to Reward Merits anytime soon, because I need all the Emp Merits I can get.  And Reward Merits are easier to earn, anyway.

[nofx242]

Why are the devs so focused on changing things instead of improving things or new content.  I just don't understand the changes making players play the way they want.  Who is it hurting if someone wants to use AE to level up and get reward merits.  This game revival is about fun not about keeping things strict, guess its time to try out some other servers and games.

[Stormwalker]

23 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Yes, you can have extra Empyrean merits to lend over to other toons. This is mostly in the case of those of us who have farm toons. But the thing is, in order to have excess Emps you have to do one thing.

 

You have to play your 50s. You have to level them. A LOT. Your 50s are your money makers, and they only do that if you use them. 

 

 

And I do that.  I mean, I only started playing... six weeks ago?  And of my two 50's, one is already in the Vet level 30's, and the other is at Vet level 15.  I do play my 50's quite a bit.  I also play my lowbies quite a bit.  And I run missions at high spawn sizes (usually x6 or x8), so I get lots of xp, which leads to gaining lots of Vet levels (and thus gaining Emp Merits).

 

And I don't farm.  At all.

 

I also don't team very much.  Partly because of the sound issues, but even after that's fixed I'm still probably going to solo 75-80% of the time, because I like to play at my own pace.  I'm very much looking forward to having the option of teaming, because I do like running the occasional TF with a team, but it's never going to be a large percentage of my playing time.

 

The only reason I have the Incarnate powers crafted that I do (3xT4, 3xT3 on Kitten America, 1xT4, 5xT3 on Stardriver) is because of Emp merits earned from Veteran levels.  So I don't take very well to it when people suggest that we shouldn't get Emp Merits for Veteran levels.  Because without those Emp Merits I wouldn't have any T3's unlocked at this point, much less any T4's.  I sure am not going to be able to accomplish it by doing Incarnate story arcs, because I've done several and the rewards for those suck.

[tidge]

26 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 Because without those Emp Merits I wouldn't have any T3's unlocked at this point, much less any T4's.  I sure am not going to be able to accomplish it by doing Incarnate story arcs, because I've done several and the rewards for those suck.

 

Sorry if I haven't been paying attention to the proposed/walked-back changes... A couple of things to alleviate any (current) sense of doom:

 

1) You can also get Notice of the Well from weekly TFs/SFs

2) The Dark Astoria story arcs can be run relatively quickly or be played with lots of enemies (for even more threads+); I don't think the rewards "suck"... yes the rarity of a chosen Incarnate salvage is random, but if you are struggling to unlock T3s grinding the DA arcs isn't a bad way to do it.

 

There are a variety of other ways to work on Incarnates on a spectrum of efficiency (Vanguard merits, for instance), weekly SSA rewards.

[Stormwalker]

Just now, tidge said:

 

Sorry if I haven't been paying attention to the proposed/walked-back changes... A couple of things to alleviate any (current) sense of doom:

 

1) You can also get Notice of the Well from weekly TFs/SFs

2) The Dark Astoria story arcs can be run relatively quickly or be played with lots of enemies (for even more threads+); I don't think the rewards "suck"... yes the rarity of a chosen Incarnate salvage is random, but if you are struggling to unlock T3s grinding the DA arcs isn't a bad way to do it.

 

There are a variety of other ways to work on Incarnates on a spectrum of efficiency (Vanguard merits, for instance), weekly SSA rewards.

 

The current proposed change (removing the exchange of Emp Merits for Reward Merits) doesn't bother me at all.  I don't think it's the best option, for a few reasons, but I could live with it.

 

What does bother me is people suggesting as an alternative that Emp Merits no longer be rewarded for Veteran levels.  That was what I was arguing against.

[SwitchFade]

Oof. I have to say, I just stopped reading at page summin' summin', due to the level of hyperbole, speculation and bias.

 

Here's some boring facts...

 

Current state, or null state: emps can be converted to merits

 

Proposed change to null: emps cannot be converted

 

Why? Simple...

 

Emps can be converted to CURRENCY. Let's dissect that. Emps ARE currency and in any economy rapid and unchecked generation of new units of currency drives rampant inflation, bad for bonzo.

 

We can debate all day long on who it affects, who makes them, who's getting the shaft, who's mom makes the best pie, who's dad can beat up who's aunt..... but it doesn't change reality as stated.

 

The arguments I have read against this change include, "you just made my stockpile of wealth..." Which, unwittingly, provides clear proof that a change to null is necessary. A massive amount of stockpiled potential currency entering the economy will destabilize it.

 

That said, this no more emp to merit change is sub-optimal. It is completely unnecessary to remove emps as a currency, the goal should be to STABILIZE the rate of currency creation vs destruction.

 

All that needs be done is to limit the RATE at which emps can be converted, for example 1 emp per week. Now THAT rate of conversion is easy to calculate for to find the right time interval....

 

Yay, we just made people happy they got their "option" but retained a control to assure they don't run amok kicking bunnies.

 

Poor bunnies.

[Coyotedancer]

4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

As you might imagine, those of us who are relatively new (and thus don't already have massive piles of Emp merits with which to craft Incarnate abilities for our alts) would be... less than thrilled with this solution.

 

For that matter, forget alts, I still don't have T4 on all slots on the two 50's I already have!

Not to mention those of us who would rather NOT have to grind DA arcs until we go cross-eyed on characters that might not actually be well suited to it. (Like the sonic defender whose iToys I'm working on right now, using the vet level grants he's gotten from being dual-boxed in AE with my farmer-)  

 

ALso keep in mind that not eveyrone can rely on iTrials. Time zones are a pain in the rump.

[Stormwalker]

22 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Not to mention those of us who would rather NOT have to grind DA arcs until we go cross-eyed on characters that might not actually be well suited to it. (Like the sonic defender whose iToys I'm working on right now, using the vet level grants he's gotten from being dual-boxed in AE with my farmer-)  

 

ALso keep in mind that not eveyrone can rely on iTrials. Time zones are a pain in the rump.

 

Exactly.  Also, I didn't enjoy the Dark Astoria arcs the first time.  Horror is not my thing.  I sure as Hell do not want to have to run them over and over again.

 

Especially since that would require turning my difficulty down to complete them faster to actually get rewards, which would then also make it tedious and boring as Hell.

 

At that point, I might as well be farming.  And I don't farm, because I hate tedium.  But that would be even more tedium.

 

(And before someone mentions the new Cimeroran repeatable Incarnate missions... Ancient Grome is also not my thing.  I mean, it's definitely better than horror, and I certainly will do some of it,   But why is it that in a superhero game none of our endgame content involves doing superhero stuff?)

Edited July 23, 2022 by Stormwalker

[DarknessEternal]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

The arguments I have read against this change include, "you just made my stockpile of wealth..." Which, unwittingly, provides clear proof that a change to null is necessary. A massive amount of stockpiled potential currency entering the economy will destabilize it.

 

You need to read more then.  The people who support this change are the rich ones.

 

Us poor people want the conversion to stay somehow.

[DarknessEternal]

5 hours ago, Dokam said:

Tinpex, Itrials, Dark astoria story missions, Weekly tfs, all are the main ways I craft T4s (From actual drops from the reward tables instead of e merits mostly).  Using Vet merits for T4s is kinda expensive. 

If reward merits are so easy to come by, and converting Empyreans are inefficient, why are you supporting the change?

 

If this is a bad way to get reward merits, leave it in place and target the actual problem.

Edited July 23, 2022 by DarknessEternal

[Troo]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Oof. I have to say, I just stopped reading at page summin' summin', due to the level of hyperbole, speculation and bias.

 

Here's some boring facts...

 

Current state, or null state: emps can be converted to merits

 

Proposed change to null: emps cannot be converted

 

Why? Simple...

 

@SwitchFade Can you explain why in your mind this change is better than the AE Vet Level change?

[Dokam]

5 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

If reward merits are so easy to come by, and converting Empyreans are inefficient, why are you supporting the change?

 

If this is a bad way to get reward merits, leave it in place and target the actual problem.

 

It was mentioned not being able to craft T4s without Emp merits gained from Vet levels, and I dropped a small list of content in the game that gives incarnate component reward tables (Not talking about reward merits).   Mostly ive only seen "I dont wanna grind boring dark astoria missions" and such after that.  Which is fine.     

 

 

I didnt say anything about converting emp merits, besides to leave it alone.  

 

 

  

[Jacke]

6 minutes ago, Dokam said:

It was mentioned not being able to craft T4s without Emp merits gained from Vet levels, and I dropped a small list of content in the game that gives incarnate component reward tables (Not talking about reward merits).   Mostly ive only seen "I dont wanna grind boring dark astoria missions" and such after that.  Which is fine.     

 

I didnt say anything about converting emp merits, besides to leave it alone. 

 

Empyrean Merits make it much easier to craft T3 and T4 Incarnate Boosts.  Getting the Rare and Very Rare Incarnate Salvage needed for T3 and T4 in drop tables isn't very common.  Instead, they're usually made by direct conversion from Empies.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Jacke

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

But why is it that in a superhero game none of our endgame content involves doing superhero stuff?)

Ah, the $25,000 Pyramid question. The answer is the original Devs never did get  to a chance to implement anything like that before the game shuts down. The Homecoming Devs are working on it.😀

 

 

While I preferred the previous change, this change is completely acceptable, as now the best way to make those Tier Four Incarnates will be just enjoying the game, which is what this is all about in the first place.

[DarknessEternal]

46 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 just enjoying the game, which is what this is all about in the first place.

I enjoy the game by being able to acquire Empyrean merits by the current methods and converting them into Reward Merits.

[Myrmidon]

15 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

I enjoy the game by being able to acquire Empyrean merits by the current methods and converting them into Reward Merits.

I’m curious. When the Homecoming team decides to continue making more Incarnate abilities, yet you’ve used all of your Empyrean Merits in conversions to Merits (which can flow like water by simply playing content), what will you do then?  

[DarknessEternal]

I'm a solo player, so reward merits don't flow like water to me.

 

I will just farm incarnate salvage the usual ways, and if I need empyreans, choose those instead.  This is all assuming they stop screwing the solo player, but we'll see about that.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

I'm a solo player, so reward merits don't flow like water to me.

 

I will just farm incarnate salvage the usual ways, and if I need empyreans, choose those instead.  This is all assuming they stop screwing the solo player, but we'll see about that.

 

I ask this out of curiosity - do you solo exclusively?

 

If so what content do you play?

 

But my overarching point to those questions is - if you are an exclusive solo player - why do you even need reward merits?  You could play unslotted on -2/1 and would never be an issue - or ramp up to whatever challenge you thought was fitting.

 

If you arent a exclusive solo player then reward merits are pretty darn easy to get and depending on how many characters you have could get a decent amount just by playing the weekly.

[Stormwalker]

29 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

I ask this out of curiosity - do you solo exclusively?

 

If so what content do you play?

 

But my overarching point to those questions is - if you are an exclusive solo player - why do you even need reward merits?  You could play unslotted on -2/1 and would never be an issue - or ramp up to whatever challenge you thought was fitting.

 

If you arent a exclusive solo player then reward merits are pretty darn easy to get and depending on how many characters you have could get a decent amount just by playing the weekly.

 

Honestly, even as someone who has been exclusively a solo player up to this point (that will change somewhat when Page 4 goes live, though), I don't find Reward Merits to be all that hard to get.  Except for the Emp merits from Veteran levels, I find Emp merits significantly harder to come by as a soloist than Reward Merits.  Which is why I use my Emp Merits for my Incarnate abilities.

 

Of course, this probably has a lot to do with the fact that I solo my characters from 1-50 through story arcs, which means by the time I get one to 50 they tend to have a pretty fair reserve of Reward Merits already.  I mean, they spend some of them while leveling, but the pieces they spend them on are parts of their eventual build, so they don't go to waste.

 

It's not the fast way to level, but it's the most fun and most rewarding, IMO.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Honestly, even as someone who has been exclusively a solo player up to this point (that will change somewhat when Page 4 goes live, though), I don't find Reward Merits to be all that hard to get.  Except for the Emp merits from Veteran levels, I find Emp merits significantly harder to come by as a soloist than Reward Merits.  Which is why I use my Emp Merits for my Incarnate abilities.

 

Of course, this probably has a lot to do with the fact that I solo my characters from 1-50 through story arcs, which means by the time I get one to 50 they tend to have a pretty fair reserve of Reward Merits already.  I mean, they spend some of them while leveling, but the pieces they spend them on are parts of their eventual build, so they don't go to waste.

 

It's not the fast way to level, but it's the most fun and most rewarding, IMO.

 

Agree 100%.  I solo most of my characters through story arcs and the occasional teamed TF, especially the Task Force Commander ones, although I sometimes solo the TFs too.  I frequently end up with 400+ merits from leveling this way.