First time VEAT player needs help

[Diantane]

Okay I made level 24 and it says I have to respec. Went for crab, but do I re-train all of the soldier attacks and defenses I had before of just stay with the crab powers?

[Errants]

The Forcespec allows you access to either the Crab/Bane powers, and all the Soldier powers. You can mix/match Crab/Soldier and Bane/Soldier, or just stay a Soldier.

Mind, duplicate powers in Crab/Soldier lock you out of the other one (e.g. you can get the Crab Venom Grenade, but not ALSO the Soldier Venom Grenade).

[Six-Six]

Here's little more detail on what Errants said. You can:

Pick all the Huntsman (rifle) primaries and leave the two others untouched.
Pick all the Bane (mace) primaries and leave the two others untouched.
Pick all the crab (crab back pack) primaries and leave the two others untouched.

You can also do the same with the secondaries, although I think given the power choices, I think you'll run out of options and will have to mix and match anyway.
Once you pick a power from crab primary OR secondary, you'll be locked out of bane primary and secondary choices and vice versa. Huntsman will always be available.
Because of that, you can mix Huntsman + bane OR huntsman + crab as long as you don't overlap certain powers (i.e. Venom Nade as Errants pointed out)

One thing to note that since you'll have 2 builds (3 at 50), if you choose a crab in any of the builds all of your builds will show the crab backpack even if say build 2 is pure bane, huntsman or bane-huntsman mix.

P.S. the same goes for Night widows, Blood widows and Fortunatas.

[Diantane]

Thanks for the reply and explanation. This sure it confusing. Would be nice to see sample builds that show which direction they had gone. I’ll take it step by step.

 

Started an arc team yesterday and when I got to 24 and saw the respec and all the choices, I knew I wouldn’t have time (with 7 players waiting). So I just didn’t train for the next ten levels. It was still fun, but I knew there had to be more to this.

[KaizenSoze]

6 hours ago, Diantane said:

Thanks for the reply and explanation. This sure it confusing. Would be nice to see sample builds that show which direction they had gone. I’ll take it step by step.

 

Started an arc team yesterday and when I got to 24 and saw the respec and all the choices, I knew I wouldn’t have time (with 7 players waiting). So I just didn’t train for the next ten levels. It was still fun, but I knew there had to be more to this.

The MIDS character builder support VEATs builds which will help figure out what you want.

 

There are lots of builds this forum as folks have pointed out.

[Errants]

15 hours ago, Diantane said:

Thanks for the reply and explanation. This sure it confusing. Would be nice to see sample builds that show which direction they had gone. I’ll take it step by step.

 

Started an arc team yesterday and when I got to 24 and saw the respec and all the choices, I knew I wouldn’t have time (with 7 players waiting). So I just didn’t train for the next ten levels. It was still fun, but I knew there had to be more to this.

An example "Huntsman" build - attacks all from the Soldier pool, but Secondary/Utility from Bane and Soldier.

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Arbiter Nevyn: Level 50 Magic Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Single Shot -- Apc-Dmg:50(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(3), Apc-Acc/Rchg:50(3), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(5), Apc-Dam%:50(5), AchHee-ResDeb%:20(7)
Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade -- GldArm-3defTpProc:10(A), GldArm-ResDam:50(7), GldArm-End/Res:50(9), UnbGrd-ResDam:50(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(11)
Level 2: Burst -- SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprSpdBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(17), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(19), SprSpdBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(19), SprSpdBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic:50(21)
Level 4: Wolf Spider Armor -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), StdPrt-ResDam/EndRdx:30(23), StdPrt-ResKB:30(23)
Level 6: Wide Area Web Grenade -- GrvAnc-Immob/Rchg:50(A), GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(25), GrvAnc-Acc/Rchg:50(46), GrvAnc-Immob/EndRdx:50(48), GrvAnc-Hold%:50(48)
Level 8: Heavy Burst -- DS:DSyncAccRange(A), DS:DSyncDamRange(27), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(27), Ann-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Ann-ResDeb%:50(29), PstBls-Dmg/Rng:50(31)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(31)
Level 12: Venom Grenade -- SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), SprDmnofA-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), SprDmnofA-Rchg/DmgFear%:50(34), Ann-ResDeb%:50(34)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(34)
Level 16: Kick -- Hct-Dmg:50(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(25), Hct-Acc/Rchg:50(48), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), Hct-Dam%:50(50)
Level 18: Frag Grenade -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(36), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc:50(37), FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(37)
Level 20: Tough -- UnbGrd-Max HP%:20(A), UnbGrd-ResDam:50(37), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Cloaking Device -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(40)
Level 26: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(40), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(40)
Level 28: Surveillance -- DS:DSyncAccDefDebuffToHitDebuff(A)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(42)
Level 32: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 35: Assault -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 38: Call Reinforcements -- ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg:50(A), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets):50(43), CaltoArm-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:30(43), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets):30(45)
Level 41: Combat Jumping -- Rct-ResDam%:50(A), Ksm-ToHit+:30(45), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(50)
Level 44: Combat Training: Defensive -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A), LucoftheG-Def:50(45), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx:50(46)
Level 47: Tactical Training: Leadership -- RctRtc-Pcptn:20(A)
Level 49: Vengeance -- Prv-Absorb%:50(A)
Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden 
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(11), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(13), Pnc-Heal:50(46)
Level 1: Stamina -- PwrTrns-+Heal:50(A), PwrTrns-EndMod:50(13), PrfShf-End%:50(15), PrfShf-EndMod:50(15), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed:50(17)
Level 50: Born In Battle 
Level 50: High Pain Threshold 
Level 50: Invader 
Level 50: Marshal 
------------
------------

[Jacktar]

Hi, like the OP I also am rolling my first VEAT and am also finding it a bit (well more than a bit!) confusing.

I wish there was some sort of guide or info about what the different flavours of the VEAT are aimed at so I could at least decide which of the many build trees to start choosing from.

I have rolled and played Warshades and PB’s on live and here (all tri forms) so am okay with multiple power menus but not when very different end results can be achieved.

And why do we have a level 24 respec just to get to pick the powers that seem to be just duplicated with different names from the under lvl 24 choices?

Why complicate the whole thing like that and not just let us pick what we want from lvl 1?

Just seems a lot of unecessary work just to start all over at lvl 24.

Would love some sort of tree diagram showing the branch splits and a description of what they are cause just saying roll a Crabber or a Huntsman means 

nothing to me without context. 

Why are they so complicated?

Lol so many question and so few scraps of info.

Thanks

[Gulbasaur]

On 8/2/2022 at 12:33 PM, Jacktar said:

I wish there was some sort of guide or info about what the different flavours of the VEAT are aimed at so I could at least decide which of the many build trees to start choosing from.

 

VERY VERY BROADLY

 

Both widow builds have a ridonkulous amount of positional defence and fairly decent (scaling) resists. The melee attacks are a mishmash of claws and spines and the range attacks are a mishmash of psi and mind. The secondary is sort of a mixture of the leadership pool and super reflexes, but better. 

 

Night Widow is a mostly melee spec that's sort of a support stalker. They have respectable single-target damage. 

Fortunata is a range/melee/control hybrid spec that kicks ass and then makes enemies kick each other's asses. They have respectable single-target damage but can also nuke like a blaster and mez elite bosses. People who say night widows are better than fortunatas probably sniff their own farts. Fortunatas are what the cool kids play. 

 

Both SoA builds have a hell of a lot of defence and some healing. They can be made very tanky.

 

Bane Spider is a fairly hybrid melee/range spec that's sort of a support stalker who can blast. If you like war mace but wish you could also buff your allies, this is probably the build for you. 

Crab Spider has a ridiculous amount of AoE damage and can churn out lot of damage when supported by their pets. The crab pack is big and crunchy. "Crabbermind" builds cut through enemies like a buzzsaw, but need ridiculous amounts of recharge to get there. 

Huntsman is sort of pseudo-build that takes the Bane line but none of the Bane attacks, focusing on the gun skills. They're kind of support sentinels with a bit of melee and respectable damage. They play like the early SoAs, but stronger. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Gulbasaur

[KaizenSoze]

13 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Night Widow is a mostly melee spec that's sort of a support stalker. They have respectable single-target damage.

Fortunata is a range/melee/control hybrid spec that kicks ass and then makes enemies kick each other's asses. They have respectable single-target damage but can also nuke like a blaster and mez elite bosses. People who say night widows are better than fortunatas probably sniff their own farts. Fortunatas are what the cool kids play. 

I do think Fortunatas are superior to Night Widows. One non-obvious thing Night Widows have over Fortunatas, durability, it is easy to make and manage a much more durable build than Fortunatas. Night Widows have easy perma Mind Link and have slow resists. This advantage is only noticeable in extreme content. Diantane, search for, Night Tank, if you're curious.

 

13 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Bane Spider is a fairly hybrid melee/range spec that's sort of a support stalker who can blast. If you like war mace but wish you could also buff your allies, this is probably the build for you.

Going to quibble here. Banes are stalker/debuffer with a nice defense aura. They have two powers that inflict -resist.

 

13 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Huntsman is sort of pseudo-build that takes the Bane line but none of the Bane attacks, focusing on the gun skills. They're kind of support sentinels with a bit of melee and respectable damage. They play like the early SoAs, but stronger. 

Huntsman are what Sentinel want to be when they grow up. 🙂 Lots of AOE, high defense, and resists. A flying Huntsman is practically un-killable. The price is your single target damage sucks.

 

One weakness that all Bane/Huntsman/Crab share. No Defense Debuff Resistance, zero, zlitch. You will always take the full debuff hit. This is very noticeable on ITFs.

 

Also, there is no way to turn off weapons redraw, which does eat into your DPS if you are switching between gun and mace attacks. Mostly effects Banes, because you want to use Venom and Frag grenades.

 

 

 

 

[Gulbasaur]

3 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Night Widows have easy perma Mind Link and have slow resists. This advantage is only noticeable in extreme content

Alright there, Sniffy Fartstockings... I do agree, though. They're fine, but unless you're going on solo AV hunts on +4x8 what you gain on NW is worth less than what you lose by cutting off the 11/10 awesomeness of fortunatas.  

4 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Going to quibble here. Banes are stalker/debuffer with a nice defense aura. They have two powers that inflict -resist.

I forgot about the debuffs! Good call. 

5 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Huntsman are what Sentinel want to be when they grow up.

I mean, what isn't? 

[KaizenSoze]

7 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Alright there, Sniffy Fartstockings... I do agree, though. They're fine, but unless you're going on solo AV hunts on +4x8 what you gain on NW is worth less than what you lose by cutting off the 11/10 awesomeness of fortunatas. 

Completely agree. Night Widows are good, just Fortunatas are awesome!

[Errants]

3 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

Also, there is no way to turn off weapons redraw, which does eat into your DPS if you are switching between gun and mace attacks. Mostly effects Banes, because you want to use Venom and Frag grenades.

 

Weapon redraw does NOT affect DPS, only player perception of DPS.

Source: Scrapper forums and exhaustive testing therein.

[KaizenSoze]

13 minutes ago, Errants said:

 

Weapon redraw does NOT affect DPS, only player perception of DPS.

Source: Scrapper forums and exhaustive testing therein.

Not true, specifically for Banes, because of the switch between two weapons. Gun and mace.

 

I agree single weapon redraw does not hurt DPS.

[Errants]

50 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Not true, specifically for Banes, because of the switch between two weapons. Gun and mace.

I agree single weapon redraw does not hurt DPS.

AFAIK and recall, this was also tested on Sentinels, Corruptors, and other two weapon users... Gonna tag who I remember posted on it: @Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Errants said:

AFAIK and recall, this was also tested on Sentinels, Corruptors, and other two weapon users... Gonna tag who I remember posted on it: @Bill Z Bubba

 

Testing was done by @BillyMailman

"AR/TA toon, I made a chain of Burst, Electric Net Arrow, Slug, Ice Arrow, M30 Grenade, Flash Arrow. Longer would have meant a power with too long a recharge and needing a real build for global and hasten and whatnot, so it stopped at six powers. Total Arcanatime is 9.108s, and after cycling it ten times, I got 92s. If redraw mattered, it was nothing. That 1s is almost certainly me missing queueing things, or just not being perfect with hitting the phone to stop the stopwatch.

 

I then made a spider, and got a ten-attack chain. Single Shot, Mace Beam, Burst, Mace Beam Blast, Wide Area Web Grenade, Mace Beam volley, Heavy Burst, Poisonous Ray, Venom Grenade, Web Cocoon. Total Arcanatime, 20.064s. I stopped after three cycles took exactly a minute. Like, it's dead on. And yeah, the Bane Build Up requires the mace, which means there's no redraw if you stick to Mace powers. (edited)

 

So, definitively, as long as you queue powers, redraw has 100% no effect whatsoever for anyone, in terms of the resulting timing."

 

So it doesn't matter. Someone can follow his testing methodology with anything else. *IF* a discrepancy can be found, it can then be addressed as a bug through the bug forum.

[Jacktar]

Hi guys, just wanted jump back in for two reasons,

firstly to apologise for my earlier post having reread it, I absolutely come over as a whiney ranting very spoilt childlike individual and it is really embarassing.

It was supposed to be a cry from the wilderness for help and guidance but I can only assume that somewhere in the writing I turned into my grumpy old dad lol.

Secondly I want to offer my thanks to all of you that responded by just ignoring my tone and by providing some proper and helpful information and guidance. All of which is very much appreciated.

I am still curious as to why the VEATS were implimented in the way they were, given that we used to have had a lvl 50 to unlock the HEATS and I reckon that the VEATS are a level higher in build understanding and implimentation. I bet I can build a rubbish VEAT with no thought at all!

Whatever, I am slowly getting to grips with them and more familiar with the opportunities they offer so thanks again 👏👏👍😀🍩🍩

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Jacktar said:

I am still curious as to why the VEATS were implimented in the way they were, given that we used to have had a lvl 50 to unlock the HEATS and I reckon that the VEATS are a level higher in build understanding and implimentation.

 

I cannot offer any (past) developer insight into the (non-lore) rationale for the forcespec, but as a player on Live my recollection is that the Hero-EATs leveled much better if the player did a (voluntary) respec after unlocking the third form. From memory: by the time HEATs existed, the respecs allowed placement of enhancement slots after re-picking powers, so it became possible to shift more slots into something like the Dwarf powers for Peacebringers (as an example) earlier than would be possible if the player was leveling up without using a respec. Since VEATs explicitly have different primary/secondary trees from the start, the forcespec is a somewhat obvious requirement, even if occasionally it feels very tedious... it always bugs the heck out of me when developing a second (or third) build!

 

I'm not saying that this was the rationale for the forcespec, as VEATs are a different twist on the "multi-form" model of HEATs, but when leveling up the first VEAT build (and not rushing via some form of power-leveling) it is a really convenient opportunity to re-jigger enhancement slots.

 

In the current (Homecoming) era this can be quite useful considering that the level of the forcespec/specialization is commensurate with the level that almost all of the (non-superior) enhancement bonuses will work, so shuffling slots to work as mules for Global bonuses can be quite a help. Obviously: Respecs are plentiful for every character, but writing only for myself I find the ability to shuffle slots early on VEATs (when we aren't quite yet swimming in extra Enhancement slots) to be very valuable to improve their performance... typically on extra Endurance/Recovery and %debuffs, in addition to chasing Global Recharge, Defenses, Regeneration.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by tidge

[Errants]

18 hours ago, Jacktar said:

Hi guys, just wanted jump back in for two reasons,

firstly to apologise for my earlier post having reread it, I absolutely come over as a whiney ranting very spoilt childlike individual and it is really embarassing.

It was supposed to be a cry from the wilderness for help and guidance but I can only assume that somewhere in the writing I turned into my grumpy old dad lol.

Secondly I want to offer my thanks to all of you that responded by just ignoring my tone and by providing some proper and helpful information and guidance. All of which is very much appreciated.

I am still curious as to why the VEATS were implimented in the way they were, given that we used to have had a lvl 50 to unlock the HEATS and I reckon that the VEATS are a level higher in build understanding and implimentation. I bet I can build a rubbish VEAT with no thought at all!

Whatever, I am slowly getting to grips with them and more familiar with the opportunities they offer so thanks again 👏👏👍😀🍩🍩

 

Legacy, a level 50 villain was required to unlock VEAT's.

Unsure why the forcespec design, but it was often viewed by players as a feature on HEAT's and other builds that a respec allowed you to slot powers with more slots than would normally be allowed for a given level.