Feedback requested. Tank creation help. Secondaries.

[Owenknowone]

What power offfer a better choice regarding a secondary effect a damge power has in regards to survival?  The minus to hit  (dark melee), slow or minus recharge  (ice melee) or knockdown (stone melee)?

 

Looking to build a survivable tank (yes i understand all tanks can be good) using either stone, ice or invulnerability to pair with a secondary previous mentioned.   If the goal was to be hit as little as possible what works best.  Thank you.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Owenknowone

[Xandyr]

Here's a few thoughts for you.

 

- Invuln/Dark is a classic "you might hit me, and it won't hurt" tank. VERY survivable.

 

-Stone Armor can be built with soft capped Defenses to all Typed damage (S/L/F/C/E/N.E./Psi) with capped Resists to Fire/Cold). Decent resists to everything else, PLUS a decent amount of Regeneration to boot. All this WITHOUT Granite. I just hit 50 with my Stone/Rad Melee tank, and it's a BEAST. (very end hungry).

 

- Ice Armor is fun. Maybe because I don't see many other Ice tanks? Or maybe because without even trying you absorb ALL the aggro. Not a little. Not some. But ALL. Icicles and Chilling Embrace work together to make sure mobs stay focused on you. Pretty easy to cap your defenses to S/L/E/N.E. VERY hard to hit soft cap to F/C. it *is* possible depending on your secondary and if you want to chase those bonuses.

 

I've ran 1 tank that had Ice Melee. The slows are nice, but on a team, you don't really get to sit back and brag about how slow you made every enemy. It is a nice powerset, and does pack a decent amount of damage. I enjoyed it, but on teams, I really couldn't tell that my slows really impacted my, or my team's, survival.

 

 I admit, I've never ran Stone Melee. So I can't comment on it.

 

I would ask yourself if you want a damage toggle or not. If the answer is yes, then that rules out Invuln. 

 

Of your choices, and your goal of being survivable and being hit as little as possible, I would recommend either Invuln/Dark or Stone/Dark.

 

Invuln/Dark gets better with the more mobs around you....fueling Invincibility. A fully saturated Invincibilty would give you between +10-16 more Defense To All, and an additional +20% To Hit. This can get you soft capped defenses to S/L/F/C/E/N.E., all while having capped Resists to S/L, and VERY respectable resists to everything else (well, maybe not to Toxic/Psi, unless you specifically chase those bonuses thru IOs. Of course, you should also be able to stack 2 MotT Resist Procs, which would get you capped to all but Toxic/Psi). Couple this with Dull Pain, Siphon Life, and dark's -to hit, and well....you ain't dying.

 

Pretty much the same thought process goes for Stone/Dark. You can already build it with those soft capped Defenses (plus to Psi!). Decent Resists ( S/L around 60+, E/NE 30-35%, Toxic around 75%, Psi 15-20%, and capped F/C). You have Rooted which can give you an extra 10-16 HP regenerated every second, and Earth's Embrace (Heal/Increase Max HP), which furthers your regeneration rate. Stone Armor also has a Damage toggle.

 

Can't go wrong with either one of those combos. 

 

 

Here's a quick build I threw together for invuln.

This is 4 mobs fueling Invincibilty, and 1 stack of MotT +Resistance Proc.

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Dmg(42), Hct-Acc/Rchg(50), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Hct-Dam%(50)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A)
Level 4: Shadow Maul -- SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(5), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(48)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- Mrc-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Mrc-Heal/Rchg(7)
Level 8: Resist Elements -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(46), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(46), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 10: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(11), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(11), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 12: Resist Energies -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Siphon Life -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(17), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(17), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(23), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(19), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(19), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), GssSynFr--Build%(23)
Level 20: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(25)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(27), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(27), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(40), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 28: Soul Drain -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(29), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(29), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(34), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(37), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(33), ShlWal-Def(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(33), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(34), Rct-ResDam%(34)
Level 35: Dark Consumption -- Erd-Acc/Rchg(A), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Erd-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Midnight Grasp -- SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(39), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(40), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(A), AdjTrg-ToHit(42), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A), Prv-Absorb%(45), PrfShf-End%(45), PwrTrns-+Heal(45)
Level 47: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Pnc-Heal(5), Mrc-Rcvry+(25)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(3), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(3)
Level 14: Double Jump 
------------

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Owenknowone said:

What power offfer a better choice regarding a secondary effect a damge power has in regards to survival?  The minus to hit  (dark melee), slow or minus recharge  (ice melee) or knockdown (stone melee)?

 

Looking to build a survivable tank (yes i understand all tanks can be good) using either stone, ice or invulnerability to pair with a secondary previous mentioned.   If the goal was to be hit as little as possible what works best.  Thank you.

 

If your ultimate goal is to be hit as little as possible i would probably go invul/dark out of the choices you provided.

 

However, if you want to take your metric to the next level Shield/Dark would be the ultimate "bet you cant hit me" machine - would have the best DDR, and also decent resists to go along with the magic Whiff machine.

[Psyonico]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

If your ultimate goal is to be hit as little as possible i would probably go invul/dark out of the choices you provided.

 

However, if you want to take your metric to the next level Shield/Dark would be the ultimate "bet you cant hit me" machine - would have the best DDR, and also decent resists to go along with the magic Whiff machine.

SR has better defenses and DDR.

 

When I want "absolutely cannot die" I turn to my Granite Stone/Dark tank.  The only time he so much as flinches is when fighting all pain enemies, in which case he just turns on minerals and goes without Granite 

[Infinitum]

42 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

SR has better defenses and DDR.

 

When I want "absolutely cannot die" I turn to my Granite Stone/Dark tank.  The only time he so much as flinches is when fighting all pain enemies, in which case he just turns on minerals and goes without Granite 

 

 

I was more speaking to the combination of the perks you get with shield - the DDR via double stacked active defense would put you around 88 vs 95 with SR - as far as the defenses go between the two its splitting hairs between my two builds - SR has the edge slightly in Melee but AOE and Ranged are virtually equal - until you stack phalanx fighting 3 times then Shield has the advantage in both resistances and defenses - because at that point MotT is at lease double stacked with resists at or above 70% to all and higher in some categories..

 

And that is not even taking into account AAO which boosts your damage - reduces the enemies damage - which would synergize nicely with the -to hit from dark.

 

Two last features that favor shield over many of the other primaries are One with the Shield and Melee Core - you can rotate these for virtually insane levels of mitigation nearly perma - very little gaps in protection.

 

Lastly the synergy with Dark - you have a heal in the attack siphon life which fills a void that shield has not having a heal and then an extra AOE attack in Shield Charge.

 

That's why my analysis favors Shield especially when paired with Dark Melee.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That's why my analysis favors Shield

 

Fixed that for ya. Doesn't matter what you pair it with, Shield > SR. The +recharge from quickness does not come near the +damage from aao and that extra 7% DDR means little to nothing in the vast majority of the game. And THEN you add in shield charge to the mix. SR may be able to cap resistances more easily but it takes being at a lessened HP level to get there. Edit: And shield gets an HP buff.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[ZemX]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Fixed that for ya. Doesn't matter what you pair it with,

 

I want to pair it with Staff. 😞

[Bill Z Bubba]

52 minutes ago, ZemX said:

I want to pair it with Staff. 😞

 

And claws and db.

[Hjarki]

10 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Fixed that for ya. Doesn't matter what you pair it with, Shield > SR. The +recharge from quickness does not come near the +damage from aao and that extra 7% DDR means little to nothing in the vast majority of the game. And THEN you add in shield charge to the mix. SR may be able to cap resistances more easily but it takes being at a lessened HP level to get there. Edit: And shield gets an HP buff.

SR tends to be significantly more durable than Shield due to the scaling resists. With a properly built SR, you're running around not only with nearly unassailable defenses but also capped resists. In contrast, Shield not only has less defense/DDR but has tissue paper resists against anything except S/L (and even hitting S/L hard cap on a Brute is tricky).

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

SR tends to be significantly more durable than Shield due to the scaling resists. With a properly built SR, you're running around not only with nearly unassailable defenses but also capped resists. In contrast, Shield not only has less defense/DDR but has tissue paper resists against anything except S/L (and even hitting S/L hard cap on a Brute is tricky).

 

I am not sure which shield builds you are using, but your assessment if off by a good margin because shield defenses rival SRs and the resists arent paper thin - nor do you have to lose hp to achieve them.

[Hjarki]

49 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I am not sure which shield builds you are using, but your assessment if off by a good margin because shield defenses rival SRs and the resists arent paper thin - nor do you have to lose hp to achieve them.

SR grants +19.5% to all positionals. Shield grants +15%. That's about 7% difference once you slot the powers.

 

Shield grants +11.25% Resistance to non-S/L. Once you've fully slotted, you're probably pushing 50% on F/C (due to purple sets) and maybe 30% on E/N.

 

Most decent SR builds will run in the 30% - 40% range for all resists, which scales up to 90% at low health.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Bah, Mids needs to fix Musculature so it doesn't buff defense with its defense debuff.

 

Anyhoo.... if I have everything (extra garbage, not talking base toggles) turned off, my Shield tank sits at 68.51% SL, 50.19% FC, 43.44% EN, 35.19% T and 14% Psi resists and 3042.76 HP.

 

My SR tank sits at 42.81% SL, 32% FCEN and 14% TP resists and 2846.17 HP. In order to get up to the shield resist levels, call it +26%, the SR would need to be at 34% health, dropping it to 967ish HP.

 

Course the real problem is that damn tanker proc granting up to +20.1% resists to everything letting the shielder get damn near SL capped while still at full health and softcapped to melee. (Another edit: she's softcapped to everything, almost incarnate softcapped to melee.)

 

For me, so far at least, both are ridiculously strong but shield wins all the time because more damage means faster clears.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

SR grants +19.5% to all positionals. Shield grants +15%. That's about 7% difference once you slot the powers.

 

Shield grants +11.25% Resistance to non-S/L. Once you've fully slotted, you're probably pushing 50% on F/C (due to purple sets) and maybe 30% on E/N.

 

Most decent SR builds will run in the 30% - 40% range for all resists, which scales up to 90% at low health.

 

 

That is my shield - with only 1 stack of Phalanx Fighting, 1 stack of MotT - and hover deactivated.  It is a relatively balanced build that could easily gain more defense and resistances.  It also can rotate OwtS and melee core effectively and near perma capping res in all categories.

 

I am not saying SR is bad - its very close - but close behind shield with all the added utility shield can provide - without having to let your health dip to get there also.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Which is why the DDR shouldn't stack from AD. Twas an oversight that should be corrected. Shield's extra damage should come at a price to its mitigation.

[Owenknowone]

Thank you all for the feedback.  Thinking about it further, would combined Inv/Dark and Arctic Mastery be the essential build when trying not to get hit?  

 

[ZemX]

I'm not sure it's going to matter what secondary or epic pool you choose.  Invuln/Any, built properly, is going to live up to the name on the product label.

 

If you're after hardmode survivability, that's more specific and you probably want to hang out in the few threads that are going about it now to see what works best there and what struggles with it.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'm not going to opine directly on those three secondaries, but I find knockdown to be the pinnacle of mitigation.  It's pretty much like hold, only far, far more amusing.

[Errants]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Which is why the DDR shouldn't stack from AD. Twas an oversight that should be corrected. Shield's extra damage should come at a price to its mitigation.

Take it from /Shield and give it to /Ninjitsu?

(I know I know, Tanker forums.)

[Infinitum]

44 minutes ago, Errants said:

Take it from /Shield and give it to /Ninjitsu?

(I know I know, Tanker forums.)

 

Only if it trades one or the other of the fast recharging heal and +end click.

[Errants]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Only if it trades one or the other of the fast recharging heal and +end click.

The goal was balance, and give Tanks a new set to play with!

[Biff Pow]

I'm a big fan of knockdown as mitigation. If a set doesn't have kb/kd, I'll add it where possible with IOs (Avalanche, Kinetic Combat, etc.) It also just gives attacks a more powerful feel, more "super".

[PLVRIZR]

17 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm not going to opine directly on those three secondaries, but I find knockdown to be the pinnacle of mitigation.  It's pretty much like hold, only far, far more amusing.

 

Could not agree more (amusing AND satisfying):  Super Strength and Foot Stomp, FTMFW!!!

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, PLVRIZR said:

Could not agree more (amusing AND satisfying):  Super Strength and Foot Stomp, FTMFW!!!

 

For even more win, make it a Rad/SS.

• Put Superior Avalanche: KD in Ground Zero.  Go knock down avg. 27 out of 30 enemies it can hit in one go.
• Take Hand Clap and put Sudden Accel KB to KD in it.  It's Foot Stomp without the damage... or the foot, I guess. 🤪
• Take Mighty Radial Final Judgement.  Find a large crowd of Scrapyarders and show them near Earth orbit.
• Slot KO Blow for knock to send one more into orbit to keep them company.
• You want Energy Mastery for FA, so squeeze Energy Torrent in there too strictly for variety.

Sure, sure... you could do more damage.  But can you have more FUN?  I don't think so!

[Owenknowone]

5 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

For even more win, make it a Rad/SS.

• Put Superior Avalanche: KD in Ground Zero.  Go knock down avg. 27 out of 30 enemies it can hit in one go.
• Take Hand Clap and put Sudden Accel KB to KD in it.  It's Foot Stomp without the damage... or the foot, I guess. 🤪
• Take Mighty Radial Final Judgement.  Find a large crowd of Scrapyarders and show them near Earth orbit.
• Slot KO Blow for knock to send one more into orbit to keep them company.
• You want Energy Mastery for FA, so squeeze Energy Torrent in there too strictly for variety.

Sure, sure... you could do more damage.  But can you have more FUN?  I don't think so!

This is my current tanker I'm shooting for.  The other would be the "most" survivable tank.  Thanks.

[PLVRIZR]

1 hour ago, Owenknowone said:

The other would be the "most" survivable tank.

 

@Hyperstrike's "Mo Durable" Inv build.  I'd suggest the NUTCRKCR (Inv/SS) build, but adds debuffs and fire farming perks, so may not be what you're looking for.  I can tell you I'm bringing NUT on tonight's Excelsior MLTF Tanker Tuesday event, to tank Lord Recluse...😆