What to do with Empyrean Merits in the future...

[SwitchFade]

9 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Who? Because I really want to know how that 4m is even possible. 

See quote from thread by someone else who asked for proof... 

[arcane]

I agree that Switch’s numbers are a little “off” for the average 1 farmer / 1 alt setup aiming for the average fully purpled / boosted build; you need a teeny bit longer.

 

But it’s all sort of beside the point. The point is: we know for a fact that you can fund billion-inf builds on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of alts with only income from one farmer. So the folks who have explicitly refused to do normal content, AH, or just about anything but farming… are being disingenuous when they suggest they won’t be able to make money without the empyrean merit conversion.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Copied from the AE thread.....

 

Okay, just did a test and here are my info and figures.

Map - Biggs Comicon S/L Asteroid

Characters - 3 Boxing MM - Robot/Electric, Robot/Time, and Robot/Kinetic

Time to clear - 3:44

Total net Inf gained - 8,285,670

8,285,670/3.44= 2,408,625 inf/Minute

Note - this is flat inf gain only, no drops/recipes were taken into account as it is random.

 

Dunno if this will help as it is 3 boxing, but here it is.

 

PS - the net Inf/Hour would be - 144,517,500, not taking drops/salvage into account.

 

 

I wonder who said this?

 

Right. 2,4 million inf as in my orginal post. What you seem to be missing is -

1. I am using THREE characters there, not TWO.

2. When I use TWO characters, to powerlevel, ONE of them has the 2x EXP booster.

 

Which cuts my total inf down by TWO THIRDS.

 

2,400,000/3 = 800,000. Which is exactly what I said I get when I am power leveling with one active farmer, and one alt on an exp booster.

 

MATH IS HARD?

[SwitchFade]

I absolutely guarantee you this is happening, and no, I will not show you how. I have, in the past proven everything I have claimed for builds, kill speeds, economic function, etc, so you're going to either trust me based on my track record or not, I really don't care, because I KNOW it's correct and happening...

 

Multiple farmers can enter a repeatable mission that will go unnamed in AE, run by a script, with 6-2 "followers" we will call them.

 

The map is cleared in minutes. The script exits all toons, pauses to check xp per toon, inf per toon and drops. If check < full or another % set, reset and repeat.

 

When any condition of full, we will call it, is met, the script will "sell" all drops not called out in the "pick this up/keep this" list, and save the rest. If all saved drops/inf hits a certain % of max or max, depends on the line setting, the script will pause runs, email drops/inf and resume.

 

Once a toon reaches 50+the vet threshold set, a similar process occurs with with emps. The toon is deleted, a new random is made and the process continues.

 

This is not a complex script and can be set to run for any period of time specified. It can also be set to use visual queues that do not change any base code of CoH itself.

 

If this can happen, then res ipso loquitur, a change is required.

[SwitchFade]

5 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Right. 2,4 million inf as in my orginal post. What you seem to be missing is -

1. I am using THREE characters there, not TWO.

2. When I use TWO characters, to powerlevel, ONE of them has the 2x EXP booster.

 

Which cuts my total inf down by TWO THIRDS.

 

2,400,000/3 = 800,000. Which is exactly what I said I get when I am power leveling with one active farmer, and one alt on an exp booster.

 

MATH IS HARD?

Did I ever say anything about 3, 2 or 1? I said inf per hour, period.

 

I don't care how you spin it, that is total per hour and enough to fund a build. If what you do at 2.4m a minute is achievable, that's the REASON for the change.

 

Math is easy. So is respect and actually reading.

[Bionic_Flea]

Four mill influence per minute?  Maybe including drop sales, but not straight influence from farm kills.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[Neiska]

10 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I absolutely guarantee you this is happening, and no, I will not show you how. I have, in the past proven everything I have claimed for builds, kill speeds, economic function, etc, so you're going to either trust me based on my track record or not, I really don't care, because I KNOW it's correct and happening...

 

Multiple farmers can enter a repeatable mission that will go unnamed in AE, run by a script, with 6-2 "followers" we will call them.

 

The map is cleared in minutes. The script exits all toons, pauses to check xp per toon, inf per toon and drops. If check < full or another % set, reset and repeat.

 

When any condition of full, we will call it, is met, the script will "sell" all drops not called out in the "pick this up/keep this" list, and save the rest. If all saved drops/inf hits a certain % of max or max, depends on the line setting, the script will pause runs, email drops/inf and resume.

 

Once a toon reaches 50+the vet threshold set, a similar process occurs with with emps. The toon is deleted, a new random is made and the process continues.

 

This is not a complex script and can be set to run for any period of time specified. It can also be set to use visual queues that do not change any base code of CoH itself.

 

If this can happen, then res ipso loquitur, a change is required.

 

Now I know you are blowing hot air.

 

First off, running scripts is bannable. So is running more than 3 accounts at a time. Are you insinuating that every farmer is doing this? And that is the lenghts one needs to go to in order to meet your figure of 1 billion during a power level?

 

Show me then. So me the math and numbers. Prove to me that it is even possible. Here, I will even do it for you. Using your "totally real and not made up" scenario above, just to show you how ridiculous that it is.

 

First off, going 1-50 in 5 hours is impossible without exp boosters. So that alt gets ZIP. But lets say its doing the maximum allowed, 2 boxing with 1 farmer and 1 alt.

In order to get 1 billion in 5 hours, that is 200,000,000 an hour. Or 3,333,333 inf per minute, on one character, the two you are actively playing, which translates to 1,666,666/minute.

 

But hold on, you have two people! So that's really 1/2rd of all your money, that you aren't really getting, due to the Booster in play. Which really means you need to earn money that you aren't even getting. See if you actually farmed and power leveled yourself, these are the things you would know.

 

So here is the math for your make believe scenerio -

1 billion in 5 hours = 200,000,000 inf/hour

200,000,000 an hour = 3,333,333 inf a minute

3,333,333 x 1.5 (exp booster inf loss) = 5 million inf a minute, on ONE character. That is more than TWICE what I make, when clearing a map in 3 minutes.

 

To simplify it for you, that means that a person would have to clear that same map I did, on one character, in HALF the time. 1 and a half minutes, or 90 seconds.

 

The loading screens ALONE won't allow that to happen, much less the absurdity that you are insinuating.

 

That is how I know everything you suggested is complete and utter BS, as would anyone who has actually power leveled themselves a few times.

[SwitchFade]

2 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Now I know you are blowing hot air.

 

First off, running scripts is bannable. So is running more than 3 accounts at a time. Are you insinuating that every farmer is doing this? And that is the lenghts one needs to go to in order to meet your figure of 1 billion during a power level?

 

Show me then. So me the math and numbers. Prove to me that it is even possible. Here, I will even do it for you. Using your "totally real and not made up" scenario above, just to show you how ridiculous that it is.

 

First off, going 1-50 in 5 hours is impossible without exp boosters. So that alt gets ZIP. But lets say its doing the maximum allowed, 2 boxing with 1 farmer and 1 alt.

In order to get 1 billion in 5 hours, that is 200,000,000 an hour. Or 3,333,333 inf per minute, on one character, the two you are actively playing, which translates to 1,666,666/minute.

 

But hold on, you have two people! So that's really 1/2rd of all your money, that you aren't really getting, due to the Booster in play. Which really means you need to earn money that you aren't even getting. See if you actually farmed and power leveled yourself, these are the things you would know.

 

So here is the math for your make believe scenerio -

1 billion in 5 hours = 200,000,000 inf/hour

200,000,000 an hour = 3,333,333 inf a minute

3,333,333 x 1.5 (exp booster inf loss) = 5 million inf a minute, on ONE character. That is more than TWICE what I make, when clearing a map in 3 minutes.

 

To simplify it for you, that means that a person would have to clear that same map I did, on one character, in HALF the time. 1 and a half minutes, or 90 seconds.

 

The loading screens ALONE won't allow that to happen, much less the absurdity that you are insinuating.

 

That is how I know everything you suggested is complete and utter BS, as would anyone who has actually power leveled themselves a few times.

You can't know that script is running, and afk farming is bannable? Are you SUUUURE?

 

Let's be clear, I think scripts are unethical and I will never personally use them.

 

You may not know they exist or how to use them, but they are real. Further, this can and does happen. This is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of automation, what we do at my work is dramatically more complex, in terms of executable actions with machine learning and discrete outcomes.

 

I will not show you how it's done, I already said that, and I don't care if you believe me.

[Excraft]

3 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

You may not know they exist or how to use them, but they are real.

 

Quote

Do not cheat or abuse exploits

1. If you find an exploit please report it to a member of staff immediately
2. This includes the use of scripts and programs to automate gameplay
3. This includes trying to deceive or otherwise cheat other players for your own gain

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/code-of-conduct/

 

If there's people using scripts, then the rules should be enforced on those people and not have everyone else punished for it.

[Neiska]

13 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

You can't know that script is running, and afk farming is bannable? Are you SUUUURE?

 

Afk farming is not bannable. Scripts and key loggers? Yep. 100% Sure. Bannable. So is playing more than 3 accounts at a time. How? Because I spoke to a GM and they said that playing more than 3 accounts would be a war crime.

 

So, just to clarify here, "you" are suggesting that we use the "extreme upper end" of not only what is possible to earn, but having to break 2 rules in order to do so, as the measurement in order to balance the AE gain around, that's what you are suggesting? 

 

That is like assuming everyone makes 10 million dollars per year, and then taxing them as such.

 

Not only would your suggestion completely break the market, but it wouldn't make farming optional anymore, it would be required, for anyone who wanted to get a fully purpled character. 

 

And for the record, your "reputation" if you even have one, as well as your opinion at this point, matters to me about as much as a sack of leaky rat droppings. Because either you

A.) Break the rules yourself.

or B.) Completely made up stats on the fly, in which case you are a Liar.

 

I suspect it is B. But either way, that makes your opinions on the matter about as reliable as Bigfoot or UFO sightings are in discussions about global market policy.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Neiska

[Coyotedancer]

44 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I absolutely guarantee you this is happening, and no, I will not show you how. I have, in the past proven everything I have claimed for builds, kill speeds, economic function, etc, so you're going to either trust me based on my track record or not, I really don't care, because I KNOW it's correct and happening...

 

Multiple farmers can enter a repeatable mission that will go unnamed in AE, run by a script, with 6-2 "followers" we will call them.

 

The map is cleared in minutes. The script exits all toons, pauses to check xp per toon, inf per toon and drops. If check < full or another % set, reset and repeat.

 

When any condition of full, we will call it, is met, the script will "sell" all drops not called out in the "pick this up/keep this" list, and save the rest. If all saved drops/inf hits a certain % of max or max, depends on the line setting, the script will pause runs, email drops/inf and resume.

 

Once a toon reaches 50+the vet threshold set, a similar process occurs with with emps. The toon is deleted, a new random is made and the process continues.

 

This is not a complex script and can be set to run for any period of time specified. It can also be set to use visual queues that do not change any base code of CoH itself.

 

If this can happen, then res ipso loquitur, a change is required.

 

And you think this happens often enough, and is done by a large enough percentage of farmers, to be an "average" rate of return rather than an unusual edge case like Angel's set-up?

 

[arcane]

To clarify, it’s three accounts allowed per shard. 15 accounts max.

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

To clarify, it’s three accounts allowed per shard. 15 accounts max.

 

Agree. 3 active accounts allowed per shard. But as far as I know there is no way to transfer money across shards is there? I am not even sure if you can mail EMP merits from one shard to another on the same account.

 

But ya, either way, what switchfade is insinuating is sheer lunacy. I am pretty sure that no one would agree with the idea that we need to balance the AE and economy around the assumption that farmers are multi-boxing 8 characters at a time running active scripts, which sure seems to be what they are suggesting.

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Agree. 3 active accounts allowed per shard. But as far as I know there is no way to transfer money across shards is there? I am not even sure if you can mail EMP merits from one shard to another on the same account.

 

But ya, either way, what switchfade is insinuating is sheer lunacy. I am pretty sure that no one would agree with the idea that we need to balance the AE and economy around the assumption that farmers are multi-boxing 8 characters at a time running active scripts, which sure seems to be what they are suggesting.

 

Email attachments are cross-shard. They can be sent and picked up by any character on your account for EMPS, and by any character belonging to anyone for INF.

[Neiska]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Email attachments are cross-shard. They can be sent and picked up by any character on your account for EMPS, and by any character belonging to anyone for INF.

 

And I can just hear the argument now - "AE needs to be nerfed further because farmers can mail themselves things across shards. They can pool all their AFK farming efforts!"

 

Would not surprise me in the least if that is the next talking point.

[Coyotedancer]

Nah. People are too used to being able to mail things between their alts. Sticking it to the Grange Association in that case would take away something too many other players find useful. No one wants to go back to the days of having to move INF or recipes around using a trustworthy friend and the Trade window.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

I agree that Switch’s numbers are a little “off” for the average 1 farmer / 1 alt setup aiming for the average fully purpled / boosted build; you need a teeny bit longer.

 

But it’s all sort of beside the point. The point is: we know for a fact that you can fund billion-inf builds on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of alts with only income from one farmer. So the folks who have explicitly refused to do normal content, AH, or just about anything but farming… are being disingenuous when they suggest they won’t be able to make money without the empyrean merit conversion.

 

Who are the people that are claiming that? I haven't seen anyone who farms in any capacity saying that they won't be able to make inf without this conversion. This is a distortion of the actual complaint, which is that the nerfing of emps as a resource will result in people farming more or having to do more of the content that they don't find enjoyable.

[Neiska]

22 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Who are the people that are claiming that? I haven't seen anyone who farms in any capacity saying that they won't be able to make inf without this conversion. This is a distortion of the actual complaint, which is that the nerfing of emps as a resource will result in people farming more or having to do more of the content that they don't find enjoyable.

 

Agree. Personally I could care less that they are removing the EMP to merit conversion. Just the suggested numbers of what farmers make in the AE was so inaccurate I found it offensive. 1 billion in 5 hours? WHILE leveling an alt? I wish I made that. Heck I wish I made half that. In reality I make about 1/4th of that.

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

First, a straw man is not what you claim it is, what @arcane said was not a straw man because he did not make up a completely fictitious argument, assign it to someone then attack it; his supposition was an observation, which you COULD claim is fallacious and demand evidence, but it's not a straw man, sorry.

 

Second, t's ok that you don't grasp economic function fully, but just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and isn't true. The earth was spherical well before people believed that, true nonetheless. Res ipso loquitur, clearly the change speaks for itself in that a problem exists.

 

Perhaps your posts get moderated because you have a penchant for needlessly insulting people? I mean, you could write all that stuff you just did, without the personal attacks, homeskillet.

 

Or was the point to be vengeful?

 

Straw man:

1. an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

The misrepresented position is that people against this change are claiming that they won't be able to make money without emp conversions. That is not what people are saying and it is obviously not true--which makes it easier to malign the people against this nerf.

 

Grasping economic function is irrelevant. You made the claim that farming always leads to inflation. There is no apparent inflation and there hasn't been for some time, despite farming being a constant. Your statement is simply false. 

 

I don't claim to know why my posts got wiped. A couple of them didn't even make reference to other people. 

 

"Or was the point to be vengeful?"

 

Instead of passing off false dogmatic beliefs and ridiculously inflated farming numbers as reality, do more of this...um...dramatic character analysis. It will be fictional AND entertaining to read.

[battlewraith]

59 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Agree. Personally I could care less that they are removing the EMP to merit conversion. Just the suggested numbers of what farmers make in the AE was so inaccurate I found it offensive. 1 billion in 5 hours? WHILE leveling an alt? I wish I made that. Heck I wish I made half that. In reality I make about 1/4th of that.

I think I make maybe 100 or 200 million inf by the time I'm done leveling a character. Part of the attraction of the farm is that failure is an option. I space out and forget to heal and die. The dog needs to go out. I get a phone call. etc. I can start and stop at will without inconveniencing any other people, which adds a lot of flexibility to when I can log in and work on a character. 

 

In the imaginings of SwitchFade and arcane, people like me are evil figures that are mercilessly inflating the market and churning out perhaps hundreds (!) of roided out billion inf characters. 

*shudders*

[Neiska]

Just now, battlewraith said:

I think I make maybe 100 or 200 million inf by the time I'm done leveling a character. Part of the attraction of the farm is that failure is an option. I space out and forget to heal and die. The dog needs to go out. I get a phone call. etc. I can start and stop at will without inconveniencing any other people, which adds a lot of flexibility to when I can log in and work on a character. 

 

In the imaginings of SwitchFade and arcane, people like me are evil figures that are mercilessly inflating the market and churning out perhaps hundreds (!) of roided out billion inf characters. 

*shudders*

 

With me it depends. If I use 2 characters to Power level Another alt, I will find a little more, but not much. I usually end a power level run with 200-250 million or so, not counting drops. You get lucky or unlucky when it comes to drops.

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

But as far as I know there is no way to transfer money across shards is there? I am not even sure if you can mail EMP merits from one shard to another on the same account.

Anything you can email, you can email across shards.

Also, I have a mule character specifically for carrying stuff between shards.  Any other method of moving thousands of converters would be out of the question.

[America's Angel]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Copied from the AE thread.....

 

Okay, just did a test and here are my info and figures.

Map - Biggs Comicon S/L Asteroid

Characters - 3 Boxing MM - Robot/Electric, Robot/Time, and Robot/Kinetic

Time to clear - 3:44

Total net Inf gained - 8,285,670

8,285,670/3.44= 2,408,625 inf/Minute

Note - this is flat inf gain only, no drops/recipes were taken into account as it is random.

 

Dunno if this will help as it is 3 boxing, but here it is.

 

PS - the net Inf/Hour would be - 144,517,500, not taking drops/salvage into account.

 

 

I wonder who said this?

I know these aren't your numbers, but just a heads up - the calculation is wrong because it's treating minutes as 100seconds rather than 60.

The correct calculation would be:

(inf gained / time to clear in seconds) x 60 = million inf per minute

So:

 

(8,285,670 / 244) x 60 = 2.04 million inf per minute

 

(8,285,670 / 224) x 60 = 2.22 million inf per minute

So it works out less than farming with brutes. However, farming with an army of robots versus an army of mobs sounds like a lot of fun so it's probably worth it! 

Edited August 18, 2022 by America's Angel

[Neiska]

16 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I know these aren't your numbers, but just a heads up - the calculation is wrong because it's treating minutes as 100seconds rather than 60.

The correct calculation would be:

(inf gained / time to clear in seconds) x 60 = million inf per minute

So:

 

(8,285,670 / 244) x 60 = 2.04 million inf per minute

So it works out less than farming with brutes. However, farming with an army of robots versus an army of mobs sounds like a lot of fun so it's probably worth it! 

 

Good catch, I didn't catch that one. Your numbers are correct, so thanks for that. 

 

PS - Bad math post!

Edited August 18, 2022 by Neiska
Added PS

[America's Angel]

Golden rule of correcting someone's math online, you will do it wrong. (As both you and I have just shown, @Neiska)

Here's the revised:

(8,285,670/224) x 60 = ~2.22m inf per minute.