Water Blast vs burning buildings in Steel Canyon

[Spectral]

I know it's rather gimmicky and very niche... but it just seems so wrong...

 

Much of the Water Blast set is treated as not-cold damage for putting out fires of buildings, which seems very counter-intuitive considering the sheer amount of water that set can conjure up... the Ice Blast set is waaaay better at it, though my feeling is they should be roughly the same, or Water Blast should actually be better?

 

Not sure if that's even doable/fixable, as there is no dmg-type "water"...? Engine limitation?

[srmalloy]

Both work by draining heat from the fire to reduce it below the ignition point of its fuel. If you spray room-temperature water, the fire will expend energy raising it to 100°C, then on turning it into steam. If you cover the fire with ice, the fire must expend energy to melt the ice, then to raise its temperature from 0°C to room temperature, then the same amount of energy as for water. For the same mass applied to the fire, ice removes more heat (i.e., does more 'damage' to the fire) than water.

 

However, water/ice is not a good choice for all fires; look up the different types of fire extinguishers. For frame buildings, like we have in the fire events, though, both are workable, although neither will work as well as, say, retardant foam.

[Rudra]

There are 3 ways to put out a fire. Remove the ignition source (edit: any heat sources including current flames). Remove the fuel (edit: any material capable of combustion). Remove the oxidizer (air). Any non-flammable liquid below the fire's temperature, and unable to rise to or above the fuel's ignition point, will both cool the fire to below combustion level and deprive the burning fuel of air. So even hot water will douse fires.

 

And CoX doesn't have complex fires. No electrical fires. No chemical fires. All fires in CoX are treated as if a wood/paper fire. Ice wouldn't be any more effective at putting out that kind of fire than water. It wouldn't be any less effective either as far as I know.

 

Edit: The sheer volume of water in water blast attacks would help smother the fire much faster than it would cool the fire. Presumably, ice blast attacks would too.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Edit: The sheer volume of water in water blast attacks would help smother the fire much faster than it would cool the fire. Presumably, ice blast attacks would too.

That would necessitate a power-by-power assessment of which powers deliver more water/ice than their raw damage would indicate, some of which is already factored into AoE attacks being able to hit more fires. Lots of complexity for little benefit, particularly with the limited coding resources.

[biostem]

10 hours ago, Spectral said:

I know it's rather gimmicky and very niche... but it just seems so wrong...

 

Much of the Water Blast set is treated as not-cold damage for putting out fires of buildings, which seems very counter-intuitive considering the sheer amount of water that set can conjure up... the Ice Blast set is waaaay better at it, though my feeling is they should be roughly the same, or Water Blast should actually be better?

 

Not sure if that's even doable/fixable, as there is no dmg-type "water"...? Engine limitation?

It's kind of too late in the game to add a new damage type.  I mean, steam jet deals fire damage...

[Rudra]

27 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

That would necessitate a power-by-power assessment of which powers deliver more water/ice than their raw damage would indicate, some of which is already factored into AoE attacks being able to hit more fires. Lots of complexity for little benefit, particularly with the limited coding resources.

Point was that water blast inundates the fire, smothering it long enough to cool. Ice blast would presumably do the same thing. I'm not asking for any new code or processes to be implemented.

[srmalloy]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Point was that water blast inundates the fire, smothering it long enough to cool. Ice blast would presumably do the same thing.

And the point I was making is that both water and ice draw heat from the fire, reducing the ignition source, with both ending up as steam, but with ice absorbing more heat due to the 80 cal/gm heat of fusion that is required to melt the ice.

[TheZag]

Then seismic and sonic should put out fires as well.  Several other power sets should be able to extinguish flames too.  I would just leave it how it is now with cold damage working against fires.

 

[Rudra]

Realistically, earth attacks would be more than capable of putting out fires too. Like with water and ice, earth can smother the burning fuel depriving the fire of the air it needs. And without a heat source maintaining the temperature, the fuel will progressively cool to below ignition temperature. Fastest way to put out a fire is to smother it. Cooling it keeps it from flaring back up when exposed to air again.

 

However, there is no earth damage type. Just smashing. Just like there is no water damage type. Just smashing with cold or fire. So yeah, unless the game undergoes a major change to damage types, there is no point to worrying about what attacks would affect in-game fires how.

[srmalloy]

13 hours ago, Rudra said:

Realistically, earth attacks would be more than capable of putting out fires too.

...if you were hurling loose dirt instead of rocks.  You'd need to throw a rock big enough to cover the fire completely to put it out -- if I stand near a fire and toss one-pound rocks into it, it's going to take a lot of rocks to do anything to the fire.

[Aracknight]

This whole string be like:

 

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, srmalloy said:

...if you were hurling loose dirt instead of rocks.  You'd need to throw a rock big enough to cover the fire completely to put it out -- if I stand near a fire and toss one-pound rocks into it, it's going to take a lot of rocks to do anything to the fire.

It was mainly loose earth and dirt I was thinking of, yes. As long as you can blanket the fire so it gets starved of oxygen.

[srmalloy]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It was mainly loose earth and dirt I was thinking of, yes. As long as you can blanket the fire so it gets starved of oxygen.

Ignoring the incongruity of having it toggled on while flying, Mud Pots should be effective against fires, as would Quicksand, because of the water content of the effects, but special-casing two powers from different sets, particularly since neither one does damage, is reaching a bit too far. And then you'd start to get into things like what happens if someone drops Quicksand on a burning oil patch and things like that, and it just gets too fiddly.

Edited August 20, 2022 by srmalloy

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, srmalloy said:

...if you were hurling loose dirt instead of rocks.  You'd need to throw a rock big enough to cover the fire completely to put it out -- if I stand near a fire and toss one-pound rocks into it, it's going to take a lot of rocks to do anything to the fire.

 

Meteor would like to have a word.

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

Meteor would like to have a word.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a 'neutron meteor', that takes out living things (admittedly, with some stretching of the definition) but leaves structures untouched.

[Arc-Mage]

I’m pretty sure I remember the Hulk putting out a fire with Hand Clap.

[Rudra]

It's a comic/cartoon/anime thing, but yeah. Strong gust of wind used to blow out the fire like blowing out a candle.

 

Edit: And yes, I realize how silly it is to comment that something is a comic thing in a superhero comic game. Strong gusts of wind are something most firefighters do not want to see happen when a fire is raging.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Rudra

[TheZag]

If they wanted to make changes to what powers work on fire it would probably be adding a flag to every power in the game for 'puts out fires'.  Set it to true or false based on if that power could put out fire and not based on its damage type (since damage types are lacking in this regard).  Then all the earth and water and ice and whatever else could put out fires while swords and bullets and fireballs wouldnt.

 

Would likely be more work than what its worth unless there is an expansion in fire fighting though.

 

[srmalloy]

A flag and an effectiveness factor, to account for powers having a greater or lesser effect on a fire than their base damage, so you can have a power that does a lot of damage in combat, but is only marginally effective at putting out a fire. And you're right, it's more work than the increase in 'realism' would be worth.

[Grouchybeast]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:13 PM, srmalloy said:

...if you were hurling loose dirt instead of rocks.  You'd need to throw a rock big enough to cover the fire completely to put it out -- if I stand near a fire and toss one-pound rocks into it, it's going to take a lot of rocks to do anything to the fire.

 

"I put out the fire, what more do you want?"

"The entire building is buried in rocks!"

"And?  The fire's out, isn't it?  Now where's my badge?"

"...can I see your superhero licence?"

"Sure, whatever."

"This address is in St Martial.  And someone just crossed out 'Arachnos' and wrote 'Freedom Falanx'.  That's not how you spell Phalanx, by the way,"

"The seagull said it would be fine.  Look, am I getting that badge or not?"

"Well...yeah, I guess.  The fire is out.  Next time, just take one of the extinguishers, okay?"

[High_Beam]

On 8/19/2022 at 4:58 PM, srmalloy said:

However, water/ice is not a good choice for all fires; look up the different types of fire extinguishers. For frame buildings, like we have in the fire events, though, both are workable, although neither will work as well as, say, retardant foam.

And PKP is right out.  I'd Try Halon but it is only really effective indoors.  Kills main space fires quick though.

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

And PKP is right out.  I'd Try Halon but it is only really effective indoors.  Kills main space fires quick though.

Uhm... that's not true. Halon 1211 extinguishers are the standard flightline maintenance fire extiguishers.

[High_Beam]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Uhm... that's not true. Halon 1211 extinguishers are the standard flightline maintenance fire extiguishers.

Interesting.  Good to know.  My experience was from inside Navy ships with Halon 1301.

[Excraft]

Doesn't Ice Blast put out fires too?  I agree, it's kind of stupid that water powers can't do anything against it. 

[Greycat]

3 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Doesn't Ice Blast put out fires too?  I agree, it's kind of stupid that water powers can't do anything against it. 

 

.... er...

 

Water and ice put out the fires just fine, yes.