Make Ouroboros more player friendly

[MsSmart]

Hi:

 

      There are often times for me, and would for others as well, that because we play at odd times due to work, family constraints, and what not, that we wind up having to use Oro missions for they are repeatable.

 

      The problem is they are treated like TFs and not missions, so while we are doing the Oro TF mission, a real TF group starts to form, well I am between a rock and a hard place; either I give up on joining the real TF or giving up all the work I did at the Oro arc; which frankly for a game that is supposed to be fun to the player, simply does not make sense or is acceptable.

 

     So why not just change the Oro missions, to be just that, missions and not TFs. So we can stop progression in the Oro arc, and do something real with other players?

 

    And if a friend logs in, and is looking to have some fun, why not let him join me? Why make Oro so unfriendly?

 

As always, I appreciate insightful suggestions to this problem, over emotional; or the since I do not have that problem, thus there is no problem perspectives; or judgmental tutorials indicating that I should have not chosen to do an Oro arc...

 

hugs 

 

Sue

 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

I guess this suggestion is about getting merit rewards for Ouro story arc completion, since you are still getting xp and/or inf for individual missions?

 

There are always repeatable missions (paper/radios, contacts that give infinite missions, etc.) but those don't give specific merit rewards.  And unless you have already played out all your contacts for a given level range, you can always abandon a "real" story arc and come back to it without losing progress.  But I'm sure you know that.

 

I have no idea how the Ouro system is programmed, but yes, it would be more generous if it counted as one of your active missions rather than as a TF.  You can make the same argument for AE missions.  Conceptually, I can see how making them separate makes sense thematically -- you are reliving an experience, or playing a game, that is different from your "real world" experience.  But again, i have no idea if Ouro or AE *can* be reprogrammed differently.

 

Interesting thought experiment though.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, MsSmart said:

 So why not just change the Oro missions, to be just that, missions and not TFs. So we can stop progression in the Oro arc, and do something real with other players?

 

I understand where you are coming from. It is more fun to play with other players.

 

The fix is simple.

Actually, play the arcs as you level instead of power-leveling past those missions.

If you don't want to outlevel them as you play, XP lock your character (turn off XP gain).

 

There is plenty of fun to be had running with other players.

I don't think you have to be gaining rewards in order to be having a fun time gaming.

 

And you can always alt to another character if one is tied up in an Oro arc that you really want to complete with a set group of other players.

Having Alts gives you flexibility. Make alts.

 

So, yeah, I'm against the change because I feel it will exploit the content. It is intended to be a taskforce type situation on purpose.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by UltraAlt
wording

[srmalloy]

18 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

So, yeah, I'm against the change because I feel it will exploit the content. It is intended to be a taskforce type situation on purpose.

Ouro gives you the opportunity to complete content you missed, outleveled, or just want to do over, with the restriction that you are locked into that content until you complete it or quit early. In a game-lore sense, you're doing this in a slightly disconnected time stream, so you're not affected by whatever is going on back in the 'real world' -- technically, you shouldn't even see TF announcements, because they're not happening in your personal time stream. I see no reason to change this.

[Riverdusk]

I'm for opening up Ouro missions, but have no idea if it is technically possible.

 

In the meantime the best bet for something similar is to run tip missions instead of radios.  They tend to be more interesting and they do lead to merit rewards after you do enough of them, without locking you in.  

[Rudra]

Ouroboros works the way it does because at the time it was created/implemented, using a TF approach was the only way to exemplar down the character as the possible team lead and get access to the missions/arcs. I have no idea if that still applies, but that is why it works the way it does.

[MsSmart]

On 8/25/2022 at 11:07 AM, UltraAlt said:

 

I understand where you are coming from. It is more fun to play with other players.

 

The fix is simple.

Actually, play the arcs as you level instead of power-leveling past those missions.

If you don't want to outlevel them as you play, XP lock your character (turn off XP gain).

 

There is plenty of fun to be had running with other players.

I don't think you have to be gaining rewards in order to be having a fun time gaming.

 

And you can always alt to another character if one is tied up in an Oro arc that you really want to complete with a set group of other players.

Having Alts gives you flexibility. Make alts.

 

So, yeah, I'm against the change because I feel it will exploit the content. It is intended to be a taskforce type situation on purpose.

 

Mostly I would do them to get the badge, the merit gains are really not that consequential, if I want merits I just to a TINPEX or Hami, they are quick fun and gives lots of merits; so not much interested in some sort of exploit,

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[UltraAlt]

19 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

Mostly I would do them to get the badge,

 

You get the badges if you do them as you level.

You can get some of the badges if you just run with a lower level team doing the missions.

I often run the Fortune Teller mission and do a shoutout for those that would like to join me to get the badge.

 

20 minutes ago, MsSmart said:

the merit gains are really not that consequential

 

So as part of whatever changes you are talking about, are you talking about removing merits from the oroborus arcs?

 

[biostem]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:30 AM, MsSmart said:

The problem is they are treated like TFs and not missions, so while we are doing the Oro TF mission, a real TF group starts to form, well I am between a rock and a hard place; either I give up on joining the real TF or giving up all the work I did at the Oro arc; which frankly for a game that is supposed to be fun to the player, simply does not make sense or is acceptable.

It's a matter of how the game handles adjusting your level in order to permit you to play the content that you've outleveled, and it would not be a small matter to work around that.  think of it like this - Is there any mechanism in-game to adjust your level downward in a stable manner that does not rely on another player to exemplar down to and re-enable the relevant contacts?

[MsSmart]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:39 PM, biostem said:

It's a matter of how the game handles adjusting your level in order to permit you to play the content that you've outleveled, and it would not be a small matter to work around that.  think of it like this - Is there any mechanism in-game to adjust your level downward in a stable manner that does not rely on another player to exemplar down to and re-enable the relevant contacts?

 

You bring a good point

[MsSmart]

I been reading studying the various replies, and my observations are such:

 

1) You can't do all the content as you level, that was true since the live days; so to make such a statement to do content as you level is not entirely true - you would have to pick and chose

 

2) I can be exemplared under anyone and do any mission in the game, thus the mechanics on how to handle your level demotion are already there

 

3) Since 2 is true, I tend to conclude that the TF restrictions all together are mainly arbitrary, and not quite without reason either

 

4) It seems to me, some of those reasons are the merits awarded at the end as the reason for such a limitation, though you could be examplared in a normal mission and get the merits

 

5) I can see a fear of exploiting the missions, normal or Oro where you invite folks at the last mission and they all get the merits, now that is a bad exploit. Perhaps a solution is a percent done of the arc flag, say you use a 75% rule, that means in order for you to get the merits you would have to have done 3 out of the 4 missions in an arc for instance and if you did less you still get your badge but no merits. This allowance is good when team members drop out a TF due to real life, which would allow for you to get a replacement, despite that the new player knowingly know will not get merits, but is helping several friends.

 

Sue

[srmalloy]

1 hour ago, MsSmart said:

1) You can't do all the content as you level, that was true since the live days; so to make such a statement to do content as you level is not entirely true - you would have to pick and chose

That's not entirely true; however, to do so requires a fairly ruthless hand with the 'Disable XP' toggle in the options.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, MsSmart said:

I been reading studying the various replies, and my observations are such:

 

1) You can't do all the content as you level, that was true since the live days; so to make such a statement to do content as you level is not entirely true - you would have to pick and chose

 

2) I can be exemplared under anyone and do any mission in the game, thus the mechanics on how to handle your level demotion are already there

 

3) Since 2 is true, I tend to conclude that the TF restrictions all together are mainly arbitrary, and not quite without reason either

 

4) It seems to me, some of those reasons are the merits awarded at the end as the reason for such a limitation, though you could be examplared in a normal mission and get the merits

 

No.

 

When Ouroboros was being designed, the developers needed to ensure that the system retained a degree of challenge and enjoyability without sacrificing the flexibility it was intended to offer.  That it wouldn't be boring, and as evidenced by the distinct lack of multiple Perez Park instances throughout the entirety of the game's life, players find mass obliteration of grey-cons to be boring.

 

There were two possible approaches to preventing Flashback missions from being boring.  The first was to make every NPC in the game "level-less", but that entailed a unique problem: NPCs don't level up.  They don't grow stronger in the way player characters do.  There is scaling of the effects applied to their powers so they're always dealing an appropriate amount of damage, or debuff strength, or status effect duration, but they have very specific, hand-picked powers assigned to them and no ability to grow beyond that.  THey don't have power sets, they don't select powers from pools, they just have a few powers and that's it.  Consequently, exceeding an NPC's level by even a bit typically renders them non-threatening, as their limited repertoire of powers present less and less challenge to a player character.  That level 1 Hellion might seem like a real challenge to your level 1 character, but it's not even remotely difficult when you're level 6 and have three more powers than you started with, or level 12, or level 20, because that Hellion still only has a gun with one bullet and a knife or fist.  That Hellion isn't "fun" to fight any more, even if it's scaled up to your level, because that one bullet is far less dangerous when you have piles of Lethal Resistance, that fist or knife is far less threatening when you're 33.96% likely to dodge it, and they don't have another attack to throw at you.  So "level-less" NPCs would never pass the "fun test" in Flashback content.

 

That left only the use of number two, exemplaring.  Having previously implemented a form of that mechanic as a means of curbing TF abuse, it was readily applicable and very appropriate for use in Flashbacks.  Players could fight critters at the proper level, with a few extra tricks up their sleeves but not enough to render the entire experience so easy as to be a joke.  It wasn't an arbitrary decision, they did it because all available evidence indicated that players didn't want to fight combat dummies, and the purpose of Flashbacks was to permit players to experience content the way it was designed, not as tank-mage runs through missions filled with greys.

 

As to why they used the TF locking code, that was necessary because the character has to be locked at the exemplared level for the duration of the Flashback.  Without that lock, character level could vary or be loopholed in some way.  The TF lock also prevents players from inviting a higher level character after beginning the Flashback specifically because it would be possible to SK to that higher level character (the TF abuse previously mentioned), thereby utterly nullifying the purpose of being exemplared to the mission level.

 

Merits had nothing to do with how Flashbacks work.  Merits weren't even in the concept stage when Flashbacks were being created, they were added several issues later.  None of the restrictions in Flashback mechanics were designed to prevent players from garnering rewards of any kind, only to ensure that those rewards were obtained within the basic expectation of meeting some degree of challenge.  Not necessarily the same degree challenge as it would have been if experienced at native level, but reasonably close.

 

Flashback mechanics are a complex web of intertwined systems all working together, and sometimes against each other, to create a usable framework.  Remove one and the whole thing collapses.  The locks on Flashbacks will likely never be removed unless a development team redesigns the entire system and/or all of the mechanics it uses.  It is what it is because it has to be what it is, or it doesn't work at all.

[MsSmart]

49 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

No.

 

When Ouroboros was being designed, the developers needed to ensure that the system retained a degree of challenge and enjoyability without sacrificing the flexibility it was intended to offer.  That it wouldn't be boring, and as evidenced by the distinct lack of multiple Perez Park instances throughout the entirety of the game's life, players find mass obliteration of grey-cons to be boring.

 

There were two possible approaches to preventing Flashback missions from being boring.  The first was to make every NPC in the game "level-less", but that entailed a unique problem: NPCs don't level up.  They don't grow stronger in the way player characters do.  There is scaling of the effects applied to their powers so they're always dealing an appropriate amount of damage, or debuff strength, or status effect duration, but they have very specific, hand-picked powers assigned to them and no ability to grow beyond that.  THey don't have power sets, they don't select powers from pools, they just have a few powers and that's it.  Consequently, exceeding an NPC's level by even a bit typically renders them non-threatening, as their limited repertoire of powers present less and less challenge to a player character.  That level 1 Hellion might seem like a real challenge to your level 1 character, but it's not even remotely difficult when you're level 6 and have three more powers than you started with, or level 12, or level 20, because that Hellion still only has a gun with one bullet and a knife or fist.  That Hellion isn't "fun" to fight any more, even if it's scaled up to your level, because that one bullet is far less dangerous when you have piles of Lethal Resistance, that fist or knife is far less threatening when you're 33.96% likely to dodge it, and they don't have another attack to throw at you.  So "level-less" NPCs would never pass the "fun test" in Flashback content.

 

That left only the use of number two, exemplaring.  Having previously implemented a form of that mechanic as a means of curbing TF abuse, it was readily applicable and very appropriate for use in Flashbacks.  Players could fight critters at the proper level, with a few extra tricks up their sleeves but not enough to render the entire experience so easy as to be a joke.  It wasn't an arbitrary decision, they did it because all available evidence indicated that players didn't want to fight combat dummies, and the purpose of Flashbacks was to permit players to experience content the way it was designed, not as tank-mage runs through missions filled with greys.

 

As to why they used the TF locking code, that was necessary because the character has to be locked at the exemplared level for the duration of the Flashback.  Without that lock, character level could vary or be loopholed in some way.  The TF lock also prevents players from inviting a higher level character after beginning the Flashback specifically because it would be possible to SK to that higher level character (the TF abuse previously mentioned), thereby utterly nullifying the purpose of being exemplared to the mission level.

 

Merits had nothing to do with how Flashbacks work.  Merits weren't even in the concept stage when Flashbacks were being created, they were added several issues later.  None of the restrictions in Flashback mechanics were designed to prevent players from garnering rewards of any kind, only to ensure that those rewards were obtained within the basic expectation of meeting some degree of challenge.  Not necessarily the same degree challenge as it would have been if experienced at native level, but reasonably close.

 

Flashback mechanics are a complex web of intertwined systems all working together, and sometimes against each other, to create a usable framework.  Remove one and the whole thing collapses.  The locks on Flashbacks will likely never be removed unless a development team redesigns the entire system and/or all of the mechanics it uses.  It is what it is because it has to be what it is, or it doesn't work at all.

Wow thank you for the elaborate response :<)

 

But I disagree with the portion of the why the TF locking code, being treated as a universal constant. I agree while inside the mission, you are locked down in level. But the oro lockdown prevents you from doing anything else, you are stuck with that mission and can't do anything else, and that is what I object to and find not needed. You should be able to go help a friend, do a TF proper, and when done, return to the arc and be exemplared down - no exploit or anything abusive, also if I invite a higher level character to enter my arc mission, they would be examplared down as it happens in any regular mission, so no loop-hole there either.

 

This is why I suggested to make Oro more player friendly, and make oro be like any other mission in the game where you can invite friends along the way and have the gest of the game, which is have fun

 

Sue

 

 

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, MsSmart said:

But I disagree with the portion of the why the TF locking code, being treated as a universal constant.

 

There's nothing to check your character's activity and determine whether you're doing something non-Flashback related, there's no way for the game to dynamically revert the exemplar according to what you're doing or where you are at the moment.  Putting you into a *F is the only way the game can exemplar you for this content.  It can't be done on a per-mission basis.  It can't be done as a toggle power which can be turned on and off at the player's discretion.  The engine just isn't flexible in that respect.  None of what's necessary to change how the mechanics function exists, or can exist without extensive redesign.

[Rudra]

As has been stated, and as @Luminara explained in depth, Ouroboros missions and arcs are run as TFs/SFs because it is the only way to get the character down to the required level and keep him/her there. And just like with TFs and SFs, you can't invite others into your mission/arc after it has been started. It is a limitation of the game. I don't know if the TFs, SFs, and Ouroboros can be run another way, but at the time of implementation, it was the only way. And if there is another way for the game to handle it now, would still require the entire TF/SF/Ouroboros system be completely rebuilt.

[starro]

no, seriously, the game we all love is that big a pile.  

 

I remember back when people were "selling" their fortune teller runs and all sort of other obnoxiousness in global chat. 

Oro was issue 11 and the merits were issue 13.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by starro