Another nail in the Brute coffin

[Snarky]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

 

Just stop - you know it  was when brutes made it to where it could fill both the role of scrapper and tank... At the same time.  Low risk. High reward.  Hell, for that matter it still kinda does that - tankers are just capable dmg wise now and can join the party.

 

Otherwise you wouldn't have your feelings hurt right now - back to the "they" comment.

And see….this is part of the reason I am moving on from the boards and the game as well.   If I have to further explain it is literally a waste of time

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Snarky said:

And see….this is part of the reason I am moving on from the boards and the game as well.   If I have to further explain it is literally a waste of time

 

You have nothing to explain - I get your point - I just see it as hyperbolic and wrong.

 

It's hard to claim you want balance on one hand when the balance you are referring to is Bruteland where they are dominating the landscape with superior dmg and tanker level mitigation.

 

That's not balance.

[Without_Pause]

52 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

You have nothing to explain - I get your point - I just see it as hyperbolic and wrong.

 

It's hard to claim you want balance on one hand when the balance you are referring to is Bruteland where they are dominating the landscape with superior dmg and tanker level mitigation.

 

That's not balance.

I don't think anyone is wanting Brutes to have Tank level mitigation.

 

I think the Tank ATO proc should be tweaked so it covers def and resist, but at lower numbers. Giving a possible +20% Res to a Tank is a bit silly, and does far less for a Res based one versus a Def based one. 

[Infinitum]

41 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I don't think anyone is wanting Brutes to have Tank level mitigation.

 

They already do - especially when teamed.

 

And while the tanker ATO proc may be overkill that isn't the underlying issue - the issue is that the Brute ATO proc sucks compared to every other melee ATO proc out.

[Erratic1]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

They already do - especially when teamed.

 

[Without_Pause]

30 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

They already do - especially when teamed.

 

And while the tanker ATO proc may be overkill that isn't the underlying issue - the issue is that the Brute ATO proc sucks compared to every other melee ATO proc out.

Please don't sell me BS you know isn't true.
 

Even if you give Brutes better ATOs, it still doesn't counter a Def based Tank walking around with a potential of +20% Res simply for attacking.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Would neutering the ATO procs of the other melee classes help?  I don't know about you all, but I'd use Brute ATOs even if the proc was "chance for light rain."  But if attitudes would turn around, I'd be happy to support cutting the values of other ATO procs, especially tankers.  I have no idea why anyone thought buffing tankers was the right thing to do, but clearly someone on the HC development team is married to a PvP tanker.

 

Or is it a "lol unplayable" situation much like squishies get max resist with two or three powers and it is terribly unfair that every melee class has to use five or six powers?

[Erratic1]

7 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Would neutering the ATO procs of the other melee classes help?  I don't know about you all, but I'd use Brute ATOs even if the proc was "chance for light rain."  But if attitudes would turn around, I'd be happy to support cutting the values of other ATO procs, especially tankers.  I have no idea why anyone thought buffing tankers was the right thing to do, but clearly someone on the HC development team is married to a PvP tanker.

 

Or is it a "lol unplayable" situation much like squishies get max resist with two or three powers and it is terribly unfair that every melee class has to use five or six powers?

 

If anything, Brutes should have gotten the current Tranker proc and Tankers should have gotten a daamge boosting proc (or perhaps something that drop Res debuff on nearby opponents).  As is, I use Brute ATOs for the set bonus.

 

 I am not seeing how it helps Brutes for other AT's ATO procs to be nerfed. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

If anything, Brutes should have gotten the current Tranker proc and Tankers should have gotten a daamge boosting proc (or perhaps something that drop Res debuff on nearby opponents).  As is, I use Brute ATOs for the set bonus.

A Tanker ATO where the Tanker gets a damage buff x damage taken would be great. Similarly a Brute ATO where the Brute gets a Endurance reduction and/or damage resistance x damage taken would also be great.

 

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I am not seeing how it helps Brutes for other AT's ATO procs to be nerfed. 

Isn't that kinda what this whole thread is about? "Nerf Tanks because Brutes aren't objectively better than them anymore!!!!eleventyone111!"

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Isn't that kinda what this whole thread is about? "Nerf Tanks because Brutes aren't objectively better than them anymore!!!!eleventyone111!"

 

That is certainly the claim put forward by a certain someone.

 

I will repeat myself from upthread:

 

It is not a matter of Brute vs Tanker but rather where does the Brute fit and is their play fulfilling/worthwhile on the whole.

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I just used the in game search function, and the number of Brutes in game quite easily outnumbers the amount of Tankers in game. I wonder how many of the Brute players are even aware there is supposed to be a problem?

 

If you're going to go by that metric, can you not argue that Tankers need more loving? "After all, if they were properly balanced more people would be playing them," is the cousin of the logic you are suggesting.

 

Popularity is not a meaningless metric, but you have to consider what feeds into it. 

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Please don't sell me BS you know isn't true.
 

Even if you give Brutes better ATOs, it still doesn't counter a Def based Tank walking around with a potential of +20% Res simply for attacking.

 

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

They already do - especially when teamed.

 

Please tell me how that's anything but factual.

 

I'm sure you know this but Tankers and Brute's have the same res/def caps.

 

Once you hit or surpass that doesn't matter which one you are playing.

 

especially when teamed.

 

Tell me how that isn't true.

 

Or maybe @Erratic1 can post another meme that can't change that fact or that has no bearing on this.  

 

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Would neutering the ATO procs of the other melee classes help? 

 

Nope

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I have no idea why anyone thought buffing tankers was the right thing to do, but clearly someone on the HC development team is married to a PvP tanker.

Because literally every week a new "tankers can't contribute to the team" thread would pop up.  And honestly if you ever played a tanker on a Dr Kahn TF or something similar pre buff without any other significant dmg dealer on the team - good luck with that.  Tankers did need a damage buff and the one they got just put them closer to Brute territory - and anyone that has tested this can verify that and also that it hasn't surpassed brute damage - nor should it anymore than Brutes should go back to their pre tanker patch level of dominance.

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Once you hit or surpass that doesn't matter which one you are playing.

 

especially when teamed.

Which is exactly why your point doesn't make any sense.

 

With the right Defenders on my team they can turn my Blaster into a tank. The fact that they can also do this to a Brute is therefore a moot point.

 

And this "point" that you made doesn't change the fact that the Brute ATO is objectively garbage, especially when compared to the Tanker and Scrapper ATOs. It also doesn't change the fact that some players feel that there is no point in playing the Brute AT because they are inferior to both Tankers and Scrappers. A point which I don't agree with, but that they feel that way is true.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Please tell me how that's anything but factual.

 

 

I already covered this upthread. It is like you cannot recognize the ground has already been gone over. 

 

1. Just being on a team does not bring up a Brute's defense or resistance--the composition of the team matters. Bring along a Kinetics Controller and an Empathy Defender nobody will complain but the Brute will not be getting any tougher.
2. Without set bonuses (around which the game is NOT balanced) or incarnate buffs brutes get the same defense and resistance values out of their powers that Scrappers do. SCRAPPER...NOT TANKS. My level 33 brute with 3 basic IOs in his secondary powerset's power is only tougher than a scrapper due to hit  points, not by defense or resistance value. A tanker with the same investment is plainly better off. 
3. Lest you back-peddle and try to make your statement about teams, the wording was, " They already do - especially when teamed", which means they do when not on a team and moreso on a team. Points (1) and (2) say otherwise. 

 

I know, I know...I have been quite content to ignore your casual bending of facts and I am broadly content to let you carry on and trust other that you have been doing so. So do not take that invoking me with an @ mention is a way to provoke a response. But I had memed and so figured in for a penny in for a pound. Feel free to get back to stomping all over any view other than your own.

[Infinitum]

45 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

With the right Defenders on my team they can turn my Blaster into a tank. The fact that they can also do this to a Brute is therefore a moot point.

 

A blaster, scrapper, stalker nothing other than a tanker can control agro better than the Brute will - throw in team buffs that overcap everything else and then you have a killing machine that will bring a level of dmg and efficiency no other AT would be able to.

 

This was already discussed in this very thread and it is a combination that many teams are running with on hard mode TFs because it is efficient.

 

So no, it isnt a moot point in theory or practice.

 

48 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

And this "point" that you made doesn't change the fact that the Brute ATO is objectively garbage, especially when compared to the Tanker and Scrapper ATOs

 

Partner, I am not disputing this - in fact look back. I brought it up in this thread l.

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

 

Having said all of that - if the Brute ATO didn't suck now with fury being self maintaining - I think Redesigning the Brute ATO would go a long way here to making it feel better.

Edited Monday at 09:25 AM by Infinitum

 

See. Page 2 or 3 on this thread.

 

52 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

It also doesn't change the fact that some players feel that there is no point in playing the Brute AT because they are inferior to both Tankers and Scrappers. A point which I don't agree with, but that they feel that way is true

 

Not disputing that either - I also disagree with this because if you truly dissect this issue down they are holding on to an imbalance that shouldn't exist.

 

54 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Just being on a team does not bring up a Brute's defense or resistance--the composition of the team matters. Bring along a Kinetics Controller and an Empathy Defender nobody will complain but the Brute will not be getting any tougher.

 

Well I am sorry that was not self explanatory enough for you not to glean that is what my description meant.  Yes you are correct. You in fact do need a buffer to bring those values up on a team.

 

55 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Without set bonuses (around which the game is NOT balanced) or incarnate buffs brutes get the same defense and resistance values out of their powers that Scrappers do. SCRAPPER...NOT TANKS. My level 33 brute with 3 basic IOs in his secondary powerset's power is only tougher than a scrapper due to hit  points, not by defense or resistance value. A tanker with the same investment is plainly better off. 

 

Ok so get set bonuses - without procs and other set bonuses like recharge the tanker likewise will not be treading as heavily into damage territory.

 

With set bonuses you CAN make a brute as durable as a tanker in everything but hard mode content - and in most cases there even the tanker needs team support.

 

I would be more than happy to demonstrate any one of my 10 Brute's to you that this is fact.

 

57 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Lest you back-peddle and try to make your statement about teams, the wording was, " They already do - especially when teamed", which means they do when not on a team and moreso on a team. Points (1) and (2) say otherwise

 

Nice try - there was no back peddling especially on a team was for emphasis that at the end of the day the gripe doesn't .matter because the only thing that will kill a brute would be teamed content anyway because there isn't much use to soloing or trying to solo hard mode content.  And if you are looking to solo decisively hard content with any AT brute included then you actually want imbalance - not balance.

 

59 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I know, I know...I have been quite content to ignore your casual bending of facts and I am broadly content to let you carry on and trust other that you have been doing so. So do not take that invoking me with an @ mention is a way to provoke a response. But I had memed and so figured in for a penny in for a pound. Feel free to get back to stomping all over any view other than your own

 

Nice try here also, there is no bending of facts coming from my direction - because what I am saying including Potential buffing of brutes is based on me actually testing multiple scenarios - rather than lamenting "how it used to be"

[Sovera]

The Empathy defender does bring Fortitude. I don't know how people slot their Empathy characters but at base value it's 15% defense which is a solid third of what's needed to reach softcap. Assuming people slot it for defense it goes to 23%.

 

The Kin does have Increased Density which at base value for a Controller gives base value of 18.5%. I do play/played Kins and slotted mine for the res, so it's a cool 29% to S/L.

 

Nitpicking because you are correct in how the team composition matters, but, isn't it factual that for easy content it does not particularly matter and when team composition matters then the choice of who joins will be weighted in?

 

Also at max level it is common-ish to cycle Destinies which if Barrier (only if though) means an increase in both resistance and defense.

 

 

As I mentioned above while leveling it really does not matter much. Both my Brutes and Tankers start at +0x6 for Posi and then once reaching Synapse will be at +1x8. More people in the team just means everything dies faster not that the game got harder. This is anecdotal since I speak only for myself, but since I stick to Fire Armor and it's supposed to be squishy...

 

 

You're right about the Tanker not caring (much) about what buffs are brought because they are self-sustaining for the most part. In return they do factually less damage than a Brute and if, somehow, there are multiple Kins and damage caps are reached then the Brute will -still- be ahead.

 

The Tanker will always be tougher than the Brute thanks to the extra 500 HP which is not negligible. Trust me, I tried to solo Market Crash on several Brutes and those 500 HP made it impossible (for me) when I had to much more frequently go hide to wait for the -HP debuffs to wear off making the AV regenerate during that.

[Erratic1]

59 minutes ago, Sovera said:

The Empathy defender does bring Fortitude. I don't know how people slot their Empathy characters but at base value it's 15% defense which is a solid third of what's needed to reach softcap. Assuming people slot it for defense it goes to 23%.

 

The Kin does have Increased Density which at base value for a Controller gives base value of 18.5%. I do play/played Kins and slotted mine for the res, so it's a cool 29% to S/L.

 

Nitpicking because you are correct in how the team composition matters, but, isn't it factual that for easy content it does not particularly matter and when team composition matters then the choice of who joins will be weighted in?

 

 

Well since we're nitpicking, there is considerable difference between a power being accessible and a character having it. And having played and read on Kinetics considerably (nevermind having a few) amongst the most commonly regarded powers for skipping is Increased Density. I will grant you Fortitude but Increased Density? I do not think I have ever had it cast on me and I have only once taken it and think I later respec'd out of it.

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

I know, I know...I have been quite content to ignore your casual bending of facts and I am broadly content to let you carry on and trust other that you have been doing so.

So I took a bit of time and went back and read some of Infinitum's posts. Which I had not done before my last post responding to him.

 

I don't think he's trying to "bend facts", so much as he's just writing in a less specific and/or technically accurate manner, which is typical of a lot of people. For example:

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

With set bonuses you CAN make a brute as durable as a tanker in everything but hard mode content - and in most cases there even the tanker needs team support.

While this statement isn't technically, objectively accurate, it is generally, effectively accurate. Frankly, I think we're all nitpicking a little more than is good for us.

 

Ok, now I've gone and confused myself. I forgotten who I'm supposed to be mad at now.  🤬

[Sovera]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Well since we're nitpicking, there is considerable difference between a power being accessible and a character having it. And having played and read on Kinetics considerably (nevermind having a few) amongst the most commonly regarded powers for skipping is Increased Density. I will grant you Fortitude but Increased Density? I do not think I have ever had it cast on me and I have only once taken it and think I later respec'd out of it.

 

Skipping on 23% S/L? Ow. Well, I suppose it won't make or break a team, but none of mine did that.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I don't think he's trying to "bend facts", so much as he's just writing in a less specific and/or technically accurate manner, which is typical of a lot of people. For example:

 

It is amazing how specific he suddenly becomes when responding to what someone else says.

 

 

1 minute ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, now I've gone and confused myself. I forgotten who I'm supposed to be mad at now.  🤬

 

Moving target. 😛

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

Skipping on 23% S/L? Ow. Well, I suppose it won't make or break a team, but none of mine did that.

 

25% Smash/Energy. Also slows movement. 

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

It is amazing how specific he suddenly becomes when responding to what someone else says.

 

I haven't changed any of what I have said regarding this sad old equine the entire year we keep coming back to it with the wooden melee utensil.

[Sovera]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

25% Smash/Energy. Also slows movement. 

 

Oh, right, Smash/Energy. Makes it even more useful tbh. The slow never was a problem when ID comes with SB. But I'm not selling anything.

 

12 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, now I've gone and confused myself. I forgotten who I'm supposed to be mad at now.  🤬

 

Not me please, I'm weak against forum PvP. Actually makes me RL sad and not in a manner of speaking, especially in this community where all love the game and lov-.. tolerate each others well enough.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

Not me please, I'm weak against forum PvP. Actually makes me RL sad and not in a manner of speaking, especially in this community where all love the game and lov-.. tolerate each others well enough

 

So you are saying is - the kitten in your avatar is YOU!  It's a dastardly feline plot!

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Oh, right, Smash/Energy. Makes it even more useful tbh. The slow never was a problem when ID comes with SB. But I'm not selling anything.

 

Clearly I play too many character for whom Energy is not much of a consideration.