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Another nail in the Brute coffin


Snarky
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@Erratic1 you actually brought up a point I was thinking of. I can use tough/Weave on a tanker just mule proc. On Broots I need tough/Weave to survive, especially pushing the envelope on the harder content.

 

I was a die hard broot fan, now I have 3 broots all farmers. I run all tankers now, and use stalkers instead of scrappers. It falls to survival, Tanks should be unstoppable with so-so damage, broots should have great survivability but damage is higher that pushes through anything, scrappers less survival able but crit to make it up, and stalkers of course stealth and AS.

 

Even my wife who is known in our VG for being at the forefront of any battle on a broot, has her first tanker that's in the 20s now. Because, the survivability makes up for the less damage. 

 

Broots need damage, fury, whatever fixed to compete as the opposite of what a tank is. If we didn't have access of bouncing back and forth so freely and ATs locked on each side broots would be the least played with hard mode.

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49 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Did the Tanker buff improve Tanker survivability? No, it did not. So no, Brutes could not do everything a Tanker could do.

 

They most certainly could - for 99% of the content - I would routinely Tank the task force with my Brute's with far greater damage output prior to the Tanker update patch.  For extreme situations I would simply switch my hybrid to melee core and my destiny to barrier - or rebirth radial - then rotate them - sure I gave up damage and recharge but with that any brute can do what a tanker can.  But there is a tradeoff to it - you literally can't and shouldn't be able to do both.

54 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Repeatedly in this thread, people who say everything is fine assert that Tankers surviving is their thing (and note this thread was stated about Brutes not surviving).

 

That all depends on the build - and the strategy - did you miss my line about page 4 dinging a few of my invul tankers hard - hard enough to where I had to adapt both my build and my strategy.  It wasn't just Brute's that were affected.

 

55 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

All of the analytical skill at spinning how Brutes "are fine" really should not have missed how Tankers are better at survival and aggro management.

 

Brute's can still manage aggro just fine solo - and if paired or teamed with a tanker - will still be just fine - it doesn't have to manage aggro then.  Tankers should be better at aggro management and survival.  Brutes still do more dmg.

58 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

So just how much more are you suggesting Brutes invest in staying alive? Maybe not bothering to even slot their attacks?

 

Not sure - would need to see the builds - my Brutes aren't having a hard time surviving - and still out damage my tankers - but there again my tankers can do more silly survival stuff my Brutes can not - but once you hit a certain mitigation value all of that is overkill except for hard mode situations anyway - and even there with the right team the Brute's can still do what the silly tanker build can do AND output more damage.

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49 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Broots need damage, fury, whatever fixed to compete as the opposite of what a tank is. If we didn't have access of bouncing back and forth so freely and ATs locked on each side broots would be the least played with hard mode.

 

I think the damage is fine, but both ATOs should be updated and revised - 1 to focus on damage and 1 to focus on mitigation.

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14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

I think the damage is fine, but both ATOs should be updated and revised - 1 to focus on damage and 1 to focus on mitigation.

As someone who doesn't use them can you explain?

But, these puts the burden of the issues on ATO procs. I believe tank damage is too close to brute damage. What's Fury topping out at these days?

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21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

They most certainly could - for 99% of the content - I would routinely Tank the task force with my Brute's with far greater damage output prior to the Tanker update patch.  For extreme situations I would simply switch my hybrid to melee core and my destiny to barrier - or rebirth radial - then rotate them - sure I gave up damage and recharge but with that any brute can do what a tanker can.  But there is a tradeoff to it - you literally can't and shouldn't be able to do both.

 

TFs are the content where unless you have a significantly full team, you don't run. Teaming encompasses down to two man, and two-man TFs are rare short of IO set overloaded gods flexing. That two-man team I ran last night on my Brute ran at +0x0 whereas my last Talker at the same level was soloing +2x4 content. The Brute had fo rest every 2-3 pulls for health (or after a single pull if multiple oranges or a red was involved) even baked by an Emparhy corruptor.

 

On a full team a Scrapper can serve the alpha absorption role and after that, who cares who is on the team? 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

That all depends on the build - and the strategy - did you miss my line about page 4 dinging a few of my invul tankers hard - hard enough to where I had to adapt both my build and my strategy.  It wasn't just Brute's that were affected.

 

 

Oh, you forced to take and slot Tough/Weave? The horrors! Brutes have been there, done that.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Brute's can still manage aggro just fine solo - and if paired or teamed with a tanker - will still be just fine - it doesn't have to manage aggro then.  Tankers should be better at aggro management and survival.  Brutes still do more dmg.

 

A later team last night with two Brutes and still the occasional  non-Brute death. Granted that was after the leader declared the team was blowing through +3x8 too quickly and upped things to +4x8. Who knows...maybe those other AT players were feeling suicidal?

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Not sure - would need to see the builds - my Brutes aren't having a hard time surviving - and still out damage my tankers - but there again my tankers can do more silly survival stuff my Brutes can not - but once you hit a certain mitigation value all of that is overkill except for hard mode situations anyway - and even there with the right team the Brute's can still do what the silly tanker build can do AND output more damage.

 

I find it interesting I can reference Tankers clearing content faster than Brutes and that gets pooh-poohed as a result of the properly chosen powersets for that to occur but there are seemingly no powersets brutes can take to reach equal time (while surviving) nor equal Tanker survivability.

 

What is your reference for Brutes being fine other than feeling it?

 

I repeatedly in this forum see people questioning why they should make a Brute, or continue making them. Why was that question, when asked of Tankers, worthy of a buff but Brutes are fine?

 

Seems to me most of the, "Brutes fine" crowd only ever show up in the Brute subforum to naysay anything changing for Brutes, otherwise most of their existence is off discussing an AT which has a reason for existence.

Pity me. My graphics card died and I am getting by on a Radeon 5450. It is amazing how a 12-year-old graphics card struggles with an 18-year-old game.

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Thank you Erratic.  Right on point as far as I see.  Brutes just keep getting further marginalized.  The Fury change and Alignment switching were both hard hits to the AT,  but every Dev decision since then (in my opinion) further erodes the special place Brutes held.  I seriously think I could play a Sentinel more effectively at 50 incarnate content for survivability and damage than a Brute.   Because even though the damage and survival factors are less you can mitigate survival issues with tactics and do as much or more damage because you are not dodging damage patches and mechanics.  The Brute AT is just ugly now unfortunately. 

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1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

As someone who doesn't use them can you explain?

But, these puts the burden of the issues on ATO procs. I believe tank damage is too close to brute damage. What's Fury topping out at these days?

 

Tankers were pretty miserable to solo before. I do not have a problem with the changes for the AT (could have given them the Defender treatment but oh well). 

 

It is not a matter of Brute vs Tanker but rather where does the Brute fit and is their play fulfilling/worthwhile on the whole.

 

If you are only ever reaching for your Brute to farm with, don't tell me brutes are fine. (Generic you there.)

Edited by Erratic1
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Pity me. My graphics card died and I am getting by on a Radeon 5450. It is amazing how a 12-year-old graphics card struggles with an 18-year-old game.

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@Snarky, I have two brutes I am currently levelling. The Savage Melee/Electrical Armor, because I want to try to wring as much out of Savage and DoTs as possible, and there StJ/Inv because I had never played up StJ before and had no current Inv characters. They are enjoyable in the abstract as they work their way to final form and improve but...

 

SM/Elec s never going to be as tough as other pairings of powersets. I worry about how survivable he will be in the end and am certain it will be less than the DM/Elec I had on Live or the SS/Bio who is my pride and joy as goes Btutes. The StJ/Inv should be incredible as goes surviving, but he is going to be very pricey--at least twice what went into SS/Bio and maybe more. While I enjoy levelling them, they feel like chores with questionable payoff.

 

By contrast, WM/Nin scrapper is a constant set of joy whose end I look forward to.

Pity me. My graphics card died and I am getting by on a Radeon 5450. It is amazing how a 12-year-old graphics card struggles with an 18-year-old game.

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Just now, The_Warpact said:

Say what? You lost me.

 

Don't tell me Brutes are fine is what it should say.

Pity me. My graphics card died and I am getting by on a Radeon 5450. It is amazing how a 12-year-old graphics card struggles with an 18-year-old game.

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Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

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7 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Oh hell no that's what I posted, broots and MMs are in a bad place right now.

 

Why I specified a generic you. :classic_biggrin:

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Pity me. My graphics card died and I am getting by on a Radeon 5450. It is amazing how a 12-year-old graphics card struggles with an 18-year-old game.

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43 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

TFs are the content where unless you have a significantly full team, you don't run. Teaming encompasses down to two man, and two-man TFs are rare short of IO set overloaded gods flexing. That two-man team I ran last night on my Brute ran at +0x0 whereas my last Talker at the same level was soloing +2x4 content. The Brute had fo rest every 2-3 pulls for health (or after a single pull if multiple oranges or a red was involved) even baked by an Emparhy corruptor.

 

On a full team a Scrapper can serve the alpha absorption role and after that, who cares who is on the team? 

 

What TF?  Again all of my Brutes are capable of running any TF +4/8 no issues.

45 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Oh, you forced to take and slot Tough/Weave? The horrors! Brutes have been there, done that.

 

I routinely take and slot tough/weave on my scrappers, stalkers, Brute's, and tankers the fact that you think it is funny tells me where your survivability issues are 

47 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I find it interesting I can reference Tankers clearing content faster than Brutes and that gets pooh-poohed as a result of the properly chosen powersets for that to occur but there are seemingly no powersets brutes can take to reach equal time (while surviving) nor equal Tanker survivability.

 

That is because they don't outside from one cherry picked set 9n one cherry picked mission that really does not simulate normal gameplay well enough IMO - @Galaxy Brainbuilt a brutal mission simulator that is far easier to test and more like what you would face in routine missions - and guess what Brute's survived and cleared faster than tankers.

 

49 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

What is your reference for Brutes being fine other than feeling it?

See above - before trapdoor was a thing this was tested extensively with the Brute's having a 15-20% edge over the tankers in clear times.

 

50 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I repeatedly in this forum see people questioning why they should make a Brute, or continue making them. Why was that question, when asked of Tankers, worthy of a buff but Brutes are fine?

 

1. Because Brute's can still output more damage especially ST damage. Safely

 

2. I do think Brute's do need a minor buff but not to bring them back to the days of City of Brute's like before where they were out damaging scrappers and blasters with near tanker mitigation.

 

Which leads me here below.

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

As someone who doesn't use them can you explain?

But, these puts the burden of the issues on ATO procs. I believe tank damage is too close to brute damage. What's Fury topping out at these days?

 

Brute's fury gives a fury bonus that is no longer needed for the T6 enh in the set and unrelenting fury gives a Regen and end proc which is less than optimal IMO.

 

The tanker ATO - Especially MotT is the clear winner here. 

 

So give the Brute one with a creative dmg proc and one with a creative res/def proc.

 

That would go a long way IMO.

 

51 minutes ago, Snarky said:

 I seriously think I could play a Sentinel more effectively at 50 incarnate content for survivability and damage than a Brute

 

I would love to see that

 

23 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

SM/Elec s never going to be as tough as other pairings of powersets. I worry about how survivable he will be in the end and am certain it will be less than the DM/Elec I had on Live or the SS/Bio who is my pride and joy as goes Btutes.

 

Elec armor shines on a brute because you can build high resistances and softcap melee defense - then if needed rotate melee core and barrier or rebirth if it is really nasty. It is practically unkillable.

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19 minutes ago, Troo said:

Is there one thing Brutes are currently best at?

 

Mitigation that approaches tanker levels while outputting greater damage especially ST dmg when you need a hard target to take out a hard target - Brute is what I use.

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16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

What TF?  Again all of my Brutes are capable of running any TF +4/8 no issues.

 

I routinely take and slot tough/weave on my scrappers, stalkers, Brute's, and tankers the fact that you think it is funny tells me where your survivability issues are 

 

Keeping this short because it is clear you're not reading and I lack the strength to waste time on that behavior.

 

(1) I wrote of the difference between TFs, which typically have more players and hence a greater likelihood of buffing/support vs other teaming, such as two-man.

 

(2) I wrote about Tankers and Tough/Weave. I never remotely suggested other melees not taking and fully using those powers. In fact I said the opposite. But hey, why would you let that get in the way of being insulting?

 

Since you are perfectly right in all your pronouncements, I am not going fo bother to say otherwise to you.

 

Edit: 

Quote

Elec armor shines on a brute because you can build high resistances and softcap melee defense - then if needed rotate melee core and barrier or rebirth if it is really nasty. It is practically unkillable.

 

I wrote in comparison to my previous (and mentioned) DM/Elec, which clearly is going to trump the SM/Elec.

 

But again on the not reading and clearly always being right

Edited by Erratic1

Pity me. My graphics card died and I am getting by on a Radeon 5450. It is amazing how a 12-year-old graphics card struggles with an 18-year-old game.

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23 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Fire farms...

 

nay.. dare I say Brutes aren't the best farmers, just the easiest.

note: Rad/Fire Brutes are simply nerf bait as Irradiated Ground is in the shop to be fixed.

 

12 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

 

Mitigation that approaches tanker levels while outputting greater damage especially ST dmg when you need a hard target to take out a hard target - Brute is what I use.

 

I agree that second or third place across multiple categories can result in a high aggregate score.

"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Posted (edited)

I am serious about the Sentinel at Incarnate content being better.  I joined my current SG that does regularly scheduled “Really Hard Way” Magisterium Incarnate Trials.  I brought a a character I had played for nearly a year every day. A Dark/Dark Brute no expenses spared solid toon I was good on.  It was so miserable, so many deaths for me, the SG thought I would never come back.  I built a Beam/Temp Blaster for incarnate work.  But one of the SG leaders uses a Sentinel and does fine. Because they are not stuck in melee against content that HATES melee. I did build an Elec/Temp Blaster with better survival than almost any Sentinel and far more damage.  Of course I wrote a thread on it if you want to dig.
 

But the point is Brutes are not the best at Tanking and every design decision seems to further degrade their position.  Make Tankers better at AoE. Bring in mechanics that reward overcap Resistance, bring in mechanics that have Ranged NPCs plink at who generates agro, add more damage patches melee punishing timers.  I get it.  The game design does not reward Brute play.  Fine, I will do something else

 

point of fact i have found an archetype/build in another game with high armor and very good melee damage and it looks like that is where I will be for another six months at least

Edited by Snarky
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7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Fine, I will do something else

 

All devs play hero side blasters tends to explain a lot of what has happened over time.. so I've heard.

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"Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown  (Wise words Unknown!)

Si vis pacem, para bellum

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11 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Keeping this short because it is clear you're not reading and I lack the strength to waste time on that behavior.

 

(1) I wrote of the difference between TFs, which typically have more players and hence a greater likelihood of buffing/support vs other teaming, such as two-man.

 

(2) I wrote about Tankers and Tough/Weave. I never remotely suggested other melees not taking and fully using those powers. In fact I said the opposite. But hey, why would you let that get in the way of being insulting?

 

Since you are perfectly right in all your pronouncements, I am not going fo bother to say otherwise to you.

 

Edit: 

 

I wrote in comparison to my previous (and mentioned) DM/Elec, which clearly is going to trump the SM/Elec.

 

But again on the not reading and clearly always being right

 

What are you even saying here my friend?

 

You are listing no specifics when I have asked you for them.

 

So don't go there. If I want to have an argument based on gray areas and ignoring my requests and suggestions - I will go pick a fight with my wife about something stupid I should ultimately keep my mouth shut on.

 

I can't help you or why your Brutes are dropping like flys when mine aren't if you can't give me specifics on builds or TFs

 

Because it doesn't add up to me what issues you are having and why you are being so dang difficult.

 

Honestly it reminds me of the first toy story where the kid got Buzz lightyear and woody felt underappreciated - both were still awesome but brute players likewise have their feelings hurt because they are no longer the new toy on the shelf even though they still are pretty darn awesome.

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12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

But the point is Brutes are not the best at Tanking and every design decision seems to further degrade their position.

How would you improve Brutes if you could?

 

No sarcasm for my part, it's a serious question. (I know it's hard to tell with me sometimes)

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Being constantly offended doesn't mean you're right, it means you're too narcissistic to tolerate opinions different than your own.

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3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

 

No sarcasm for my part, it's a serious question. (I know it's hard to tell with me sometimes)

Hhhmmm it seems someone has slipped free from the stockade. THE AUTHORITIES MUST BE NOTIFIED AT ONCE!

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1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

 

 

I repeatedly in this forum see people questioning why they should make a Brute, or continue making them. Why was that question, when asked of Tankers, worthy of a buff but Brutes are fine?

 

Seems to me most of the, "Brutes fine" crowd only ever show up in the Brute subforum to naysay anything changing for Brutes, otherwise most of their existence is off discussing an AT which has a reason for existence.

 

 

There are definitely a large amount of people that hate Brutes even existing. Some of those people are responsible for changes in this game. Brutes have from the start meant to be the class in between Tankers and Scrappers, so I can definitely see why balancing them was difficult. Tankers absolutely got overtuned to the point that Brutes don't even seem necessary any more for even regular content. The issue before the overtune was that there wasn't a need for Tankers because content could be handled just fine without a Tankers amazing survivablity. So instead of creating content requiring that from a Tanker, the AT was overtuned to make the existence of rolling a Brute over a Tanker pointless even for regular content. So, this genie is out of the bottle. To make Brutes relevant again I dunno what would need to be done. Have the Fury mechanic also boost Absorb/Res/Def along with DMG or something?

 

I remember when the game was City of Brutes. I hate the idea of it going back to that, but it's City of Tankers now.

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