New Challenge mode ITF….any MM’s survive this?

[Fira]

I'm still baffled anyone thinks that this extra shift is going to do literally anything for that situation. First, this changes nothing for the T3 pet. Second, it's only a ~20% difference for T1 pets which will still get oneshot anyway. Hello, anybody home ?

 

This problem runs much deeper than that. Between the ToHit negating Defense cheese, and rampant AoEs, you could make them level 55 and they'd still get absolutely REKT.... While still buffing enemy warshades

Edited September 3, 2022 by Fira

[Xandyr]

Has anyone sent in petitions or tried to contact a GM/Dev? @GM Kaiju  @The Curator

Edited September 4, 2022 by Xandyr

[Neiska]

16 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Has anyone sent in petitions or tried to contact a GM/Dev?

 

I know its been discussed in discord, but I have yet to hear a GM/Dev comment about it. Even if they are aware of it, I doubt it's going to be fixed or addressed anytime soon. So I have more or less shelved my MMs far as hard modes are concerned. You can bring literally any other AT and it will be more of a help than "any" MM. So I am currently leveling up a character specifically for hardmodes until they at least say something about it.

[Xandyr]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

 

I know its been discussed in discord, but I have yet to hear a GM/Dev comment about it. Even if they are aware of it, I doubt it's going to be fixed or addressed anytime soon. So I have more or less shelved my MMs far as hard modes are concerned. You can bring literally any other AT and it will be more of a help than "any" MM. So I am currently leveling up a character specifically for hardmodes until they at least say something about it.

Gotcha. I only play my MMs for non hard mode (regular teaming/occasional TF). I thought it'd be the perfect time to dust off my mercs/FF for hard mode, but guess not....hence why I'm working on a nature defender just for hard mode.

[Fira]

15 hours ago, Neiska said:

You can bring literally any other AT and it will be more of a help than "any" MM.

 

I don't know about that. Defenders can be very useful. So even a discount defender isn't completely useless. It's pointless, however...

[Crysis]

On 9/3/2022 at 11:20 PM, Xandyr said:

Has anyone sent in petitions or tried to contact a GM/Dev? @GM Kaiju  @The Curator

Too busy fixin’ farmin’ I’m afraid to worry about MM’s being able to participate in end-game content.  Maybe after Sents get some attention.

[Madvillain]

I completed 4star on my bots/rad last night. Pets were squishier than normal but there were only a few fights where I was spam summoning them. If anything, I felt more effective since mobs took longer to kill and my main gripe w MMs in standard content is that the pets don't make it to mobs in time to get hits off unless they have some +movement buffs. I also wasn't trying to tank though.

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Madvillain said:

I completed 4star on my bots/rad last night. Pets were squishier than normal but there were only a few fights where I was spam summoning them. If anything, I felt more effective since mobs took longer to kill and my main gripe w MMs in standard content is that the pets don't make it to mobs in time to get hits off unless they have some +movement buffs. I also wasn't trying to tank though.

 

A 4 star what may I ask? And were you solo or on a team? But either way, good job.

[Madvillain]

22 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

A 4 star what may I ask? And were you solo or on a team? But either way, good job.

 ITF per the thread topic, but I do 4star Aeon with it as well.

 

Edit: Definitely not solo lol all 4star runs I do are with a full team

Edited September 6, 2022 by Madvillain

[Crysis]

16 hours ago, Madvillain said:

 ITF per the thread topic, but I do 4star Aeon with it as well.

 

Edit: Definitely not solo lol all 4star runs I do are with a full team

 

Care to share some tactics?  

 

1) Did you have a tank grabbing/holding aggro?  I’m assuming you weren’t “Tankerminding” stuff?

2) Did you remain ranged on Defensive Bodyguard or otherwise attempt to keep bots using mostly ranged attacks?

3) Any significant +ToHit buffs to allow pets to hit targets?

4) Pet +DEF/+RES stats at top end?

5) Any other useful combat tactics for keeping pets/self alive?

 

I’ve now completed exactly one 2* ITF with my Demons/Time build and it was primarily keeping myself and henchmen entirely on Defensive Bodyguard and only selectively targeting outlier critters.  Had a tank and brute on team, remainder were blasters and corruptors and one Defender.  I basically hung back with blasters and was a weak buffer and ghetto blasters.  Demons didn’t do much damage at all.  Still lost henchmen frequently but survived mainly by being carried and roaring pew pewing pot shots.  

[Madvillain]

On 9/7/2022 at 6:03 AM, Crysis said:

 

Care to share some tactics?  

 

1) Did you have a tank grabbing/holding aggro?  I’m assuming you weren’t “Tankerminding” stuff?

2) Did you remain ranged on Defensive Bodyguard or otherwise attempt to keep bots using mostly ranged attacks?

3) Any significant +ToHit buffs to allow pets to hit targets?

4) Pet +DEF/+RES stats at top end?

5) Any other useful combat tactics for keeping pets/self alive?

 

I’ve now completed exactly one 2* ITF with my Demons/Time build and it was primarily keeping myself and henchmen entirely on Defensive Bodyguard and only selectively targeting outlier critters.  Had a tank and brute on team, remainder were blasters and corruptors and one Defender.  I basically hung back with blasters and was a weak buffer and ghetto blasters.  Demons didn’t do much damage at all.  Still lost henchmen frequently but survived mainly by being carried and roaring pew pewing pot shots.  

 

General tactics I use for this MM in standard content work well.
1) I don't tank in the typical sense. I will set up bots adjacent to a mob, out of melee range but usually somewhat close, with defensive/stay, or aggressive/stay (depending on if theyre triggered while defensive) on them so they don't run into the middle of the mob. The tanking I do is applying radiation infection to other groups, then going back to pets for BG to drag them into the team/debuff puddles/pet aggro.

2) See above mostly. In 4star content, you definitely don't want the pets in melee range due to the aoes (and them tending to run out of supremacy). But also, you want all enemies to be in one direction relative to the pets so they can aggro/AoE effectively, so this is applicable to standard content as well.

3) I have tactics, pets get supremacy +tohit, plus whatever team buffs, and radiation infection for -defense. Have had no issues with pets hitting anything in any content.

4) On my own, pets are at 30% defense from procs (5%+5%), maneuvers (5%), bot bubble (15%), and an extra 15% aoe from the ATO. Resistance is at 35% from the ATO (15%) and procs (10%+10%). Save the bot shield, they are baseline for a slotted lvl 50 MM since Rad offers no def/res buffs. I was on a team for all of these, which consisted of a variety of res/def/heal buffs and destiny cycling though.

5) Not really. I have had to spam pet summons on some of the bigger fights where they inevitably draw aggro, or where you are forced into a full team huddle where they're hit by AoEs.

 

Edit: Completing this or any TF at 4star difficulty demands competence and teamwork. You can't roll into it on a very strong toon and carry the team on any AT or any toon imo. Being on a team that's not working together well probably has the biggest impact on MMs, since they tend to draw excess aggro, and pets are more easily killed then, and when they don't have teammates buffing.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Madvillain

[Fira]

From my limited experience echoing some points above:

 

 * You totally want +- DEF/ToHit in team

 * ... failing that, everyone (and pets even more) hit rate is abysmal

 * ... failing that, pets even at 60% DEF will get ganked in one hit

 * ... failing that, cycling barrier is an easy cheat code for defense side instead

 * Pets need to be/resummon far from brawl or they'll get oneshot by Cims Cones/PBAoEs

 * Bodyguard is great but won't save you in a straight fight. It helps with AoEs. You can just avoid AoEs.

 * Pets in Dwarves Mires seem to skyrocket ToHit and provide a quick hospital ticket discount

 * Flaky DEF aside, pets get oneshot by Lts routinely if they roam - they can't tank anything

 

My conclusion remains the same:

   If you're gonna play a team utility char with low offensive capability and huge reliance on team utility (due to pet shortcomings)

   ... well sure you can play it safe and it's not impossible, but why wouldn't you want an actual defender instead ?

[Bionic_Flea]

I completed a 2* on Static Flea, my Thugs/ElecAff on a mostly PuG team.  The first few missions weren't terrible as the team I was on was treating it as a steamroll.  I don't know about you guys, but my MMs suck at stealthy speed runs.  I did have to periodically resummon, but more often than not I had at least a few pets up.  The ElecAffinity heal and absorb definitely helped the pets and the team a great deal.  We also had other buffs, but I'm sorry I don't remember what they were.  I've run a bunch this week and they are all blurring together.

 

The final mission against Rommy was horrible for my pets, and me.  Between Rommy's dirty tricks and aggro coming from Nictus, Barriers, and ambushes, I felt that I was constantly resummoning, dead, or running.  But we kept at it and succeeded in the end after about 90 minutes or so.

 

I ran a different 2* on my Nature/Sonic defender and we had a demons MM who thanked me at the end of another successful run stating that the buffs really helped his pets survive.

 

So maybe the key is a combo of spammed heals and absorb to keep those pets alive . . . oh and your teammates too . . .

[FUBARczar]

I can definitely say that MM's can rock the casbah at least when Infinity Adam is at the wheel.  

 

I have been on a few 4* runs with Adam driving MMs, and the results are good.  Just last night we ran a 4* in about 50 mins with about a dozen deaths (almost half of which happened because of an unfortunate Incan just before Romulus rezzed... get t the picture?). 

 

Anyhow, this time he was on a Demons/Cold and he thrived despite those rowdy demons pulling every mob in sight down on us. 

 

MMs 4TW?

[KaizenSoze]

4 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

I can definitely say that MM's can rock the casbah at least when Infinity Adam is at the wheel.  

 

I have been on a few 4* runs with Adam driving MMs, and the results are good.  Just last night we ran a 4* in about 50 mins with about a dozen deaths (almost half of which happened because of an unfortunate Incan just before Romulus rezzed... get t the picture?). 

 

Anyhow, this time he was on a Demons/Cold and he thrived despite those rowdy demons pulling every mob in sight down on us. 

 

MMs 4TW?

I would like to see the build and the pets stats showing the team buffage.

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

Adam Infinity was the Demons MM I mentioned in my post above.

 

Somewhat related to MMs but also to all hardmode content: I have noticed that many players only cast their buffs at certain intervals, or when everyone is all together.  While those are certainly great times to buff, especially the PBAOE buffs, better players are conscious of player and pets death and re-cast their shields on them when they rez or get resummoned.

 

When you don't rebuff on rez, you frequently get cascade deaths -- one after another.

[FUBARczar]

9 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

I would like to see the build and the pets stats showing the team buffage.

 

 

Here's a little breakdown...

 

 4*ITF 52:17 14 deaths No Rez Inspirations:

Tank BioTW@NightmareSkull

Scrapper TWBio@Raw

Blaster [email protected]

Cont DarkPain@AyekoVoid

Corrs IceKin@EV & IceThermal@StarWhispers

Def NatureSonic@Voltak

MM DemonsCold@Adam

Mission_1 10mins/1d >>> Mission_2 5mins/0d >>> Mission_3 17mins/3d >>> Mission_4 20mins/10d

 

 

[Neiska]

Update:

 

Got turned down from six 4 star teams now for being an MM.

Got to do one 2 star with my Crabber SoA.

Got turned down from a 4 star with my scrapper. (To be fair they needed support. Had plenty of DPS already.)

Got turned down from three ITF teams on my tanker because I was Bio-Armor, and they wanted Shield Defense, Invulnerability, or Super Reflexes. Team leader said they wouldn't accept any other primaries.

 

Patch 4 sure has brought out the best in the community. *slowclap*

[Astralock]

3 hours ago, Neiska said:

Update:

 

Got turned down from six 4 star teams now for being an MM.

Got to do one 2 star with my Crabber SoA.

Got turned down from a 4 star with my scrapper. (To be fair they needed support. Had plenty of DPS already.)

Got turned down from three ITF teams on my tanker because I was Bio-Armor, and they wanted Shield Defense, Invulnerability, or Super Reflexes. Team leader said they wouldn't accept any other primaries.

 

Patch 4 sure has brought out the best in the community. *slowclap*

If it makes you feel any better, many team leaders are turning away Brutes and Sentinels as well.  Not that I agree with any of that, mind you.

[Neiska]

2 hours ago, Astralock said:

If it makes you feel any better, many team leaders are turning away Brutes and Sentinels as well.  Not that I agree with any of that, mind you.

 

No, it doesn't. But thank you. But this is blooming into more than a MM problem. And so far from what I've seen, it's starting to get worse. Now not only are some ATs being shunned, but some powersets within desired ATs as well. Personally, I think it might be because people want the quickest, smoothest, most hassle-free clear times more than the actual challenge. No surprise there though. Call it a hunch but the same people who were going "we need harder difficulties" were likely min-maxing down to the fraction of a decimal point. When you design a build like that, it shouldn't be any surprise that 99% of the content is face roll. But I do worry that this will only get worse as time goes on. Sure, some old content that required planning and strategy is face roll now, but to me this feels different. Because certain tools/buffs/debuffs are required, or you are gonna have a hard time.

 

What I find most depressing though is I redesigned one of my MMs specifically for hardmode. My Electrical MM has Fardays Cage, T4 Clarion, even RoP for just in case emergencies, Heals, Absorbs, Endless END for everyone, a bit of CC sprinkled in, and what damage I can add to the pile. Even after all that fine tuning still no luck. It's pretty much "No MMs, Sentinels, Brutes, VEATS, Epic ATs, and only X, Y, Z powersets desired on Tankers, Corruptors, Controllers, Dominators, and Defenders."

 

At this point I think I am going to hang up my MMs entirely as far as teaming is concerned. I thought about making a tanker or something specifically for Hard modes, but then I question if I even want to play with such people. I have given thought to foregoing random teaming entirely, save for SG mates and friends. And going by private conversations elsewhere, I am not the only one. This obviously isn't everyone's opinion, but in the group of folks I hang out with, this patch has done far more to discourage people than encourage them.

[KaizenSoze]

15 hours ago, Neiska said:

What I find most depressing though is I redesigned one of my MMs specifically for hardmode. My Electrical MM has Fardays Cage, T4 Clarion, even RoP for just in case emergencies, Heals, Absorbs, Endless END for everyone, a bit of CC sprinkled in, and what damage I can add to the pile. Even after all that fine tuning still no luck. It's pretty much "No MMs, Sentinels, Brutes, VEATS, Epic ATs, and only X, Y, Z powersets desired on Tankers, Corruptors, Controllers, Dominators, and Defenders."

 

At this point I think I am going to hang up my MMs entirely as far as teaming is concerned. I thought about making a tanker or something specifically for Hard modes, but then I question if I even want to play with such people. I have given thought to foregoing random teaming entirely, save for SG mates and friends. And going by private conversations elsewhere, I am not the only one. This obviously isn't everyone's opinion, but in the group of folks I hang out with, this patch has done far more to discourage people than encourage them.

I think we are in that honeymoon stage of ITF Hardmode. Everyone wants their badges and loot, and wants it now, as fast as possible.

 

Once it gets old, in a month or so. Folks will relax, the devs will tweak some things.

 

No, need to give up teaming on a toon you love.

[Astralock]

23 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Once it gets old, in a month or so. Folks will relax

 

You are an optimist, I see.

[Bionic_Flea]

My suggestion for MMs and other misfit toys to organize their own one star ITFs.  Everyone should have a crack at the new stuff, even if it's not turned up to 11.  But what that also does is shows everyone on the team how valuable you as a player and your AT/Powersets can be.  Once enough people see it done, they mellow out.  And as your character starts finding 1*s easy, then go for 2*, then 3*, and soon enough you will be running 4*s with ease and showing those naysayers how wrong they were.

[Brutal Justice]

Well apparently a “balanced” team is a team with 6 of 8 members playing a support class.  A “diversified” team is only 5 of 8 as support so maybe you should be looking for one of those to join 🤪

 

The best way truly is to form your own and let people who join know they can play whatever they want.  You do that enough times and you’ll also run into like minded people and you’ll learn what sort of team is forming just by who is forming it.  

[Neiska]

Honestly I just hope that those who make decisions on thing notice the new trends and do something. I don't have the head to know what should be done, and I am not crying for a nerf either, if anything I hope that this may shine a light on which ATs/Powersets that could do with some love.