New Challenge mode ITF….any MM’s survive this?

[Crysis]

Have now done 2 and 3 star ITF’s on my Thugs/Storm and my Demon/Time MM’s.  I just can’t keep pets alive and end up running pet less for most of the missions.  The added aggro mechanic is murder on my pets.

 

I have all the numpad binds, max DEF and RES values from builds etc.  Seems like the whole thing is just not MM friendly.

 

Any insights from others?

[FUBARczar]

They just don't have enough HP, even lots of players get one-shotted so there is no fix on the players end.

 

Maybe entering hardmode should level shift pets to 50+1 (at least the main pet) just like players and they should get a HP buff.  

[Neiska]

Nope. I asked this in Discord too and nobody replied. There is so much purple on the harder difficulty, the only time my pets hold up is spamming heals and buffs on them nonstop, even on a full team the pets faceplant. Even with my Demons/EA or Robots/Time, the toughest MMs I have, pets just don't cut it on the higher difficulty. Full T4's etc, doesn't matter. Pets need boosting for harder content, but I don't expect them to do anything about it.

[The_Warpact]

Does anyone know if MMs were tested in Beta on this? Or like Snarkys broot thread people are saying lrn2ply or git gud or just "buff" them?

C'mon you cannot take something like pets on a hard mode TF when they are levels below you and expect them to survive. Stuff on this page have really annoyed me more than usual. 

[Crysis]

3 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Does anyone know if MMs were tested in Beta on this? Or like Snarkys broot thread people are saying lrn2ply or git gud or just "buff" them?

C'mon you cannot take something like pets on a hard mode TF when they are levels below you and expect them to survive. Stuff on this page have really annoyed me more than usual. 

 

Incarnate stuff for MM’s is mostly playing things “on hard mode” anyways, because of the level shifting effect.  But since we now have more than one “really hard mode” TF I would hope the Devs might circle back and realize that almost our entire AT is excluded from this content.  There’s been countless recco’s on how to improve them in general, but I think its going to take a matching level shift for our henchmen now to survive this.

 

I’m willing to acknowledge I may just be missing a tactic or three when tackling these challenge TF’s.  But I just found myself totally unable to leverage my entire primary at all.  

[The_Warpact]

@Crysis this is what I have seen for a while and typically it has distanced me from my favorite AT more and more. Especially on harder content, itrials, etc.

 

The pets *need* to be brought up to equal or one lvl below the master. Survivability alone demands it.

[Neiska]

Same. MMs are my favorite class but they just don't hold up on harder content. At least with the incarnate stuff before it was doable. Rough but doable. Now? Expect anything 3 or 4 star to just be resummoning pets, or just go illusion controller. It just really sucks how much of an oversight this was. I tried every trick in the book I know as an MM player and nothing works. The difference between the pets and npcs are just too wide to be circumvented by clever engagement.

[Doomguide2005]

     So I'm not a MM player but what factor do you all think is the greatest issue.  Pets durability or mitigation -> they're just one shot by everything, Or they can't hit anything because the targets are effectively +5 and up in level Or they can't do any damage because, again,  they're simply too under-level and the Purple Patch destroys any punch they may have Or basically all the above (which is all fundamentally a PurplePatch issue)?  Because this sounds like an issue, too much 'smoke' for it simply to be, for the lack of a better term, whiney players as a MM outsider looking at this and other similar threads.  There's a fire generating all that smoke.

[Riverdusk]

Yep, figured hard mode stuff was basically a no go.  Pretty much the only incarnate trial I'll do and actually feel useful with them is BAF, which is probably consensus the easiest one.  

[FUBARczar]

I don't understand you folk, but I still sympathize with you.

[Crysis]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     So I'm not a MM player but what factor do you all think is the greatest issue.  Pets durability or mitigation -> they're just one shot by everything, Or they can't hit anything because the targets are effectively +5 and up in level Or they can't do any damage because, again,  they're simply too under-level and the Purple Patch destroys any punch they may have Or basically all the above (which is all fundamentally a PurplePatch issue)?  Because this sounds like an issue, too much 'smoke' for it simply to be, for the lack of a better term, whiney players as a MM outsider looking at this and other similar threads.  There's a fire generating all that smoke.

Ummm

 

E) All the Above

 

Seriously.  And the new Aggro rules mean even if you are really accurate with proper henchmen control macros it doesn’t matter as any nearby mobs are gonna aggro onto your pets and they just can’t handle 2-3X inbound damage.

 

I have 8 fully T4’d MM’s now.  I’ve attempted to run them all on Rugged ITF.  I even did an all-MM version.  It’s just not viable.  For me at least.  I was hoping it was just me and someone would throw out some useful tactics but I think it’s just that these new difficulty modes don’t consider the native MM handicaps.

[Neiska]

28 minutes ago, Crysis said:

I have 8 fully T4’d MM’s now.  I’ve attempted to run them all on Rugged ITF.  I even did an all-MM version.  It’s just not viable.  For me at least.  I was hoping it was just me and someone would throw out some useful tactics but I think it’s just that these new difficulty modes don’t consider the native MM handicaps.

 

Afraid it isn't just you hon. The only team I was able to semi-manage it on was my all t4 3 robot team - EA, Time, Kin, but even that was rough, and I didn't finish. It simply wasn't worth the time investment going spawn to spawn, resummoning everything, rebuffing, popping destiny, power boost, chrono, farsight, felcrum, then trying to get the 2-3 groups that would aggro down before stuff began to wear off. 

 

To put it into perspective, I regularly farm on with that team on +4/8 with EBs, I've hunted GMs, I've solo'd some TFs, etc. 

 

Even if you use every trick, tactic, and get every kitchen sink from Walmart into the mix, it simply isn't viable. 😟

 

I just hope the GMs notice and do something. Because it really sucks having a favorite AT completely borked for any new content.

[Riverdusk]

That's the thing.  I find my MM's really fun doing "regular" content.  Just running my thugs/time recently on +3 or +4/x8 radio or various contact missions in a team and I'm seeing a lot of kills from me showing up on the combat log and my pets don't die that often.  So, I feel like I'm pulling my weight offensively. Then at the same time I also get to support my team with my secondary.  I find my MM's also tend to solo faster/easier than most other "support" AT's, once again running the "normal" stuff even on higher difficulties (although that somewhat depends on powerset and build).  Tend to be easier than trying to solo defenders or corruptors generally anyway.

 

But you get to the "challenge" stuff and they kind of hit that breaking point and fall apart.  As I said before, high floor, low ceiling.  

[The_Warpact]

You have to figure, I know the macros, tactics, etc, I used to pvp on Live with an MM and on HC. Zone, arena, and base raid, that to me is is hard content, unknown variables, different ATs, etc.

This hard mode stuff they have now is just not possible for MMS as they stand. There has to be an upgrade/update, something to make them viable.

 

And

 

While you're at it, make pet customization a thing it's way past time on both accounts.

[Mygrn]

I tried a +4 Imperious for funsies with friends. We got to the second to last mission before people had to start leaving.

If anyone gets mind controlled by a nictus my pets were dead. If we pulled more than 1 group my pets were dead. AV or EB in the group? Pets where dead. The amount of time I spent with pets not dead was probably less than 5% of the time spent in the task force while in combat. Lightning storm and Tornado were probably 90% of my damage because... my pets were dead.

I don't think my pets should be able to take a direct hit from an AV's biggest attack and live. I do think that they should have a reasonable chance to survive a hit from most 54 attacks if I'm buffing the snot out of their defenses with Steamy Mist, Barrier core, Maneuvers. and MM enhancements. I'm not asking for them to do more DPS but for them to be alive long enough to be useful.

Plus when they die that is at least 3 clicks to get them going again. Summon+2 trainings. And most times one or more of them have died before I finish even that much.

Completely demoralizing that I would have been more useful bringing an alphaless blaster or something.

[FUBARczar]

14 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

They just don't have enough HP, even lots of players get one-shotted so there is no fix on the players end.

 

Maybe entering hardmode should level shift pets to 50+1 (at least the main pet) just like players and they should get a HP buff.  

@Erratic1 yeah what didn't you like? The truth or the suggestion?

[KaizenSoze]

The good:

I saw this thread and had some time, so I started a 1 star ITF with a PUG. The team was good, we completed the TF in about 1:25. 

 

I run Nnija/Trick arrow MM. I pride myself on not losing pets often. I run hour plus PI 4x8 Radios and might lose 5-10 pets. Run Apex-TIn mage while only losing only a few pets. I am saying this to explain that I know how to keep the squishiest pets MMs have alive. Even against +4 super stunners, exploding crystals, etc...

 

Also, Trick arrow adapts well to page 4. Flash arrow keeps the extra aggro down. The -damage debuffs help a lot.

 

For most of the 1 star ITF I was doing fine, losing pets at a much higher rate than I like. But it's hardmode. Still, the pets were good at picking out Hostless and the team was solid. I even had them soloing Vandal for a min or so without a single death before the rest of the team joined in. So, I felt like I was pulling my weight.

 

The bad:

Then the first stage of the Rom fight. Between Rom's void judgement, and Nictus AVs constant AOEs. I was turned into a second rate defender. I was still spawning pets just to give the ambushes something to aggro on besides the team. But I had several stretches of not bothering to summon pets, because they were dying so quickly.

 

The pets were useful in the second stage of the Rom fight, because that is a hug the AV fight without a lot of AOE.

 

I can believe in a 2-4 star ITFs, that pets were next to useless.

Edited August 28, 2022 by KaizenSoze

[Fira]

That's also my conclusion after a fail run try of Invincible ITF : playing a Mastermind amounts to a worse defender with pets utility.

 

Problem is from my understanding, beyond the pets survivability, they also tend to be liability due to things like Dwarves Mires.

More targets to hit means they get buffed more. I believe the Mires include +ToHit so it's a good ticket to accidental wipes for just existing.

 

This and many other things in that vein are just conceptual problems with game, amped up by Hard Mode.

Everything that is unfair to everyone in higher hard modes and solved by crutches, simply become near unsolvable stacked with pets problems.

If you think giving level shift is going to change this, you're probably vastly underestimating the issue.

[Astralock]

The Imperious TF has always been rough on Masterminds.  I suspected that Masterminds would be a complete no-go on the Advanced Difficulty Imperious TF.

 

FWIW, Masterminds are just fine on the Advanced Difficulty Dr. Aeon SF, (despite whatever you may hear).  So it’s not Advanced Difficulty that is the issue, it’s the Imperious TF.

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Astralock said:

The Imperious TF has always been rough on Masterminds.  I suspected that Masterminds would be a complete no-go on the Advanced Difficulty Imperious TF.

 

FWIW, Masterminds are just fine on the Advanced Difficulty Dr. Aeon SF, (despite whatever you may hear).  So it’s not Advanced Difficulty that is the issue, it’s the Imperious TF.

Meh...I'd still rather run my illusion troller on a hard ASF than a MM.

[Crysis]

On 8/28/2022 at 5:34 PM, KaizenSoze said:

The good:

I saw this thread and had some time, so I started a 1 star ITF with a PUG. The team was good, we completed the TF in about 1:25. 

 

I run Nnija/Trick arrow MM. I pride myself on not losing pets often. I run hour plus PI 4x8 Radios and might lose 5-10 pets. Run Apex-TIn mage while only losing only a few pets. I am saying this to explain that I know how to keep the squishiest pets MMs have alive. Even against +4 super stunners, exploding crystals, etc...

 

Also, Trick arrow adapts well to page 4. Flash arrow keeps the extra aggro down. The -damage debuffs help a lot.

 

For most of the 1 star ITF I was doing fine, losing pets at a much higher rate than I like. But it's hardmode. Still, the pets were good at picking out Hostless and the team was solid. I even had them soloing Vandal for a min or so without a single death before the rest of the team joined in. So, I felt like I was pulling my weight.

 

The bad:

Then the first stage of the Rom fight. Between Rom's void judgement, and Nictus AVs constant AOEs. I was turned into a second rate defender. I was still spawning pets just to give the ambushes something to aggro on besides the team. But I had several stretches of not bothering to summon pets, because they were dying so quickly.

 

The pets were useful in the second stage of the Rom fight, because that is a hug the AV fight without a lot of AOE.

 

I can believe in a 2-4 star ITFs, that pets were next to useless.

I finally managed to finish a 1 star ITF on my Ninja/Time with Destiny Barrier.  The “It’s a Bow Time” build famous in these forums.  I agree with all you’ve said and yes the Rommie battles were hopeless for my pets.  Haven’t tried on Rugged with this build yet but I’m about done trying on MM’s unless it’s someday addressed.

 

And yes….I do believe a level shift solution would make these hard modes playable to MM’s up to at least 2 star ratings.

[Sovera]

MMs should no longer have the level shift ages ago. Not sure why it's still a thing with the devs clinging to that artificial handicap. Is there some sort of worry that outside +0 enemies (which is what pylons are) MMs are so vastly outperforming?

[Riverdusk]

One of my ideas is just shifting MM's pet level shift up by 1.  So tier 1 pets would be a -1, tier 2 pets would be at 0 and the tier 3 (boss pet) would actually be +1 to the player.  MM's should have the BEST pets in the game, so why shouldn't the top pet of the pet class actually be +1 and therefore better than any old controller pet.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Riverdusk

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

One of my ideas is just shifting MM's pet level shift up by 1.  So tier 1 pets would be a -1, tier 2 pets would be at 0 and the tier 3 (boss pet) would actually be +1 to the player.  MM's should have the BEST pets in the game, so why shouldn't the top pet of the pet class actually be +1 and therefore better than any old controller pet.

I like the idea of a +1 to the T3 as a bodyguard should be tough but, that's seriously going overboard on power creep.

[Riverdusk]

True enough and probably the bigger issue isn't their damage, but their survivability and a +level increases both.   Probably the easiest fix on just the survival front is to just bump their hps up by a decent amount.  Except mercs of course, they do need both.

 

HC devs aren't known for going the simple fix route though, so will be interesting to see what they come up with.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Riverdusk