Inherent INFILTRATION for Arachnos!

[Wavicle]

The suggestion is: Give Arachnos inherent INFILTRATION! I dunno what level, someone else can figure that out.

[Major_Decoy]

It'd be nice if it stacked with Mask Presence.

[Rudra]

It's already a pool power with no prerequisites available at level 4. So, no.

[Six-Six]

If you think about it, it does sound like a better version of Mental Training (recharge + run speed boost) which is a sort of meh power pick. Although personally I'd prefer an Arachnos version of Field Operative than infiltration. Yes, the Bane's get Cloaking Device, but it's available late 30s(???) and only for Banes, not Crabs. /Devices' Field Op can be taken before 20. I mean it fits the theme. Maybe switch Defensive or Mental Training for it and have it available sooner. But then Cloaking Device will be slightly redundant, and I don't have a solution for that off the top of my head.

just spitballing here:
replace Defensive with CJ
replace Mental Training with Field Op

replace Cloaking with Mind Link/Victory Rush/Smoke Grenade

I rarely take infiltration, though, even if I opt for the concealment pool. most of its powers seem redundant to me, especially if you have stealth and CJ+super jump. IIRC, it also cost more end to keep on all the time... which I never do for travel powers.

[Rudra]

How does it fit the theme? Of all the types of Arachnos units, only the  Banes and the Night Widows ever exhibited any capacity for stealth.

 

Edit: Also, Mental Training gives unresistable run speed boost, unresistable fly speed boost, unresistable recharge boost, and unresistable resistance to run, fly, and speed debuffs. According to the power in CoX. So not just run and recharge boost.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Rudra

[Six-Six]

I think Field Operative fits characters that are themselves called Operatives... in the Field.

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It's already a pool power with no prerequisites available at level 4. So, no.

Yes, but the pool power version doesn't work with Mask Presence. Turning on Infiltration turns off Mask Presence and visa versa and there is a moment, at the switch, where you are entirely visible. So it would be nice to have a version that worked with the Arachnos cloaking powers.

[Rudra]

33 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Yes, but the pool power version doesn't work with Mask Presence. Turning on Infiltration turns off Mask Presence and visa versa and there is a moment, at the switch, where you are entirely visible. So it would be nice to have a version that worked with the Arachnos cloaking powers.

I don't care if Infiltration is changed to work with other stealth powers. I'm not arguing that.

 

35 minutes ago, Six-Six said:

I think Field Operative fits characters that are themselves called Operatives... in the Field.

Let's look at Arachnos units. In the field. (And by field, I am looking at any mission and zone that have the units.)

 

Tarantulas: Don't use stealth.

Arachnobots: Don't use stealth.

Drones: Don't use stealth.

Arachnos Warworks: Don't use stealth.

Wolf Spiders: Don't use stealth.

Crab Spiders: Don't use stealth.

Bane Spiders: Minions don't use stealth, but lieutenants and bosses do.

Blood Widows: Don't use stealth.

Night Widows: Use stealth.

Fortunatas: Minions and lieutenants don't use stealth, but some high level bosses do.

Arbiters: Don't use stealth and can be folded under Wolf Spiders for consideration.

 

Stealth is not a theme for Arachnos any more than it is for Longbow. It is only used by specific units. In the field.

 

Edit: And all Arachnos Operatives other than players are default bosses with "Operative <Name>" for their boss name. None use stealth unless their default boss type uses it.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

Ok, how about a version of Infilitration (running and jumping) without Stealth, but perhaps with some other slight benefit?

[Rudra]

Why do you want Infiltration, in any form, for Arachnos ATs? And what will you give up to get it? And what will you say to the players already enjoying their VEATs when you take away that power you choose to get it?

 

Edit: Also, Soldiers of Arachnos already get Mental Training which boosts their running and flying. And gives them a resist to slows (for running, flying, and recharge) that cannot be ignored/reduced by mobs as well as a recharge boost as their other slight benefit.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

I'd like them to have an inherent travel power, like Kheldians, and none of the others make any sense. And I wouldn't give up anything to get it. I'm saying to add it as an additional inherent power, just like Kheldians get a passive and a travel power. Chill dude, no one's taking anything from you. It's just a suggestion thread.

[Rudra]

Why should VEATs get an inherent travel power? Kheldians get their travel power as a selectable power. Not an inherent.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Kheldians get their travel power as a selectable power. Not an inherent.

 

Wrong.

[Rudra]

Wrong how? I see no inherent travel for HEATs. It says inherent flight, but the only inherent flight I see is on the Nova form.

 

Edit: Okay, I logged one in and yeah, it has inherent flight.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

I invite you to go make one.

[Rudra]

I'm still opposed to giving the VEATs an inherent travel. That's my feedback. I'm going to bed.

[Six-Six]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Stealth is not a theme for Arachnos any more than it is for Longbow. It is only used by specific units. In the field.

 

Edit: And all Arachnos Operatives other than players are default bosses with "Operative <Name>" for their boss name. None use stealth unless their default boss type uses it.

I guess we weren't on the same page from the start. I was merely referring to the name of the power, not the power itself. And in the same vein, it's also the reason why I supported OP's request to add Infiltration to SoA's powers... because they Infiltrate. I think it's safe to say that the term Operative, whether NPC, Boss or players, tend to refer to Arachnos in the same way Archon immediately makes you think of Council, and Consigliere (which btw means Councilor) refers to Family. So why not give a group that obviously has ownership of the term Operative a power with the same word in it regardless if they utilise the stealth aspect of it. I know it's a shallow form of reasoning, but that's how I roll. Sorry for getting your panties in a bunch over it. (incidentally, are there any named bosses that use stealth? just wondering out loud.)

Additionally, Field Op doesn't only offer stealth (btw, I think of stealth as the power to be sneaky... you're not invisible to the extent of Stalker's Hide or Mask Presence... you're just quiet and unnoticeable... almost like you were trained for it...) it's got good regen + recovery... which this time in terms of power fits with the Arachnos Training theme under Conditioning.

[Major_Decoy]

And I do agree that it's really hard to find the room to take a travel power with all the other powers I want to fit into Widow and Soldier builds.

[Heavensrun]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Ok, how about a version of Infilitration (running and jumping) without Stealth, but perhaps with some other slight benefit?

It's called "Athletic Run" and it's free from the P2W vendor at level 1.  (though I don't think it works until level 2?)

[Astralock]

1 hour ago, Heavensrun said:

It's called "Athletic Run" and it's free from the P2W vendor at level 1.  (though I don't think it works until level 2?)

 

It definitely works at level one.  I use it to run around Breakout and Precinct 5 at what feels like warp speed compared to live.

[Indystruck]

Extremely big NO to getting rid of Mental Training for Infiltration

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, Six-Six said:

I guess we weren't on the same page from the start. I was merely referring to the name of the power, not the power itself. And in the same vein, it's also the reason why I supported OP's request to add Infiltration to SoA's powers... because they Infiltrate. I think it's safe to say that the term Operative, whether NPC, Boss or players, tend to refer to Arachnos in the same way Archon immediately makes you think of Council, and Consigliere (which btw means Councilor) refers to Family. So why not give a group that obviously has ownership of the term Operative a power with the same word in it regardless if they utilise the stealth aspect of it. I know it's a shallow form of reasoning, but that's how I roll. Sorry for getting your panties in a bunch over it. (incidentally, are there any named bosses that use stealth? just wondering out loud.)

Additionally, Field Op doesn't only offer stealth (btw, I think of stealth as the power to be sneaky... you're not invisible to the extent of Stalker's Hide or Mask Presence... you're just quiet and unnoticeable... almost like you were trained for it...) it's got good regen + recovery... which this time in terms of power fits with the Arachnos Training theme under Conditioning.

I disagree. You may think the name makes it appropriate, but the power's effects are why I think it is not. None of Arachnos' units except for the Night Widows and the Bane Spiders are known to get any training in stealth. Not just the go invisible as stealth works in the game, but just being sneaky. Arachnos is so sneaky in fact, that they commandeer an entire freighter to get into Paragon City, preparing themselves for the inevitable hero response before they even get to port.

 

The only sneaky tactics Arachnos has been known to use are their mini-subs that I have no idea how people even get into. Aside from that? They use the same generic approaches Longbow, Crey, heroes, PPD, and everyone else uses to suddenly get some place stealthily: the sewers that somehow connect the Rogue Isles and Paragon City, the ferries that are not seen in Paragon City but apparently run there and are used by heroes to sneak into Grandville for some missions, the random portal, or the obvious transport that is for reasons unknown not blown out of the water by Grandville's defenses or Longbow's patrols.

 

At least for me, there is more to consider for what is thematic for someone or something than just whatever name it happens to have been given by the devs.

[Six-Six]

You are absolutely right.

 

 

To the OP, sorry for the side-tracking of the topic. You still have my support for Infiltration to be included in SoA's powers.

[battlewraith]

First of all, egads another thematic waste of time ala Rudra complete with a factually wrong statement about HEATs before he temporarily exits--and then argues more about thematics.

 

I support an inherent travel power for SoAs. My suggestion would be a triple jump power. Maybe each bounce could give a temporary def boost or tohit or dmg boost. Like a jumping spider about to pounce. The triple bounce would be on a rchg cycle, the same way the shelf powers work for current pool powers.

[Greycat]

Have to say I don't particularly care for this.

Right now, you can get "infiltration" by taking mask presence on the three VEATs it's thematic for (since Crabs don't tend to be stealthy) and Athletic Run - so no need for a pool pick. I can run Mask Presence without affecting my movement.

 

Plus, frankly, there's nothing about Widows, Forts, Crabs or Banes that indicates "Inherent travel power." If one of the options were Mu? There'd be an argument for an inherent flight there. But for the others? Nope. You're an Epic. the ATs are designed to be you, a common redslider schlub working for Arachnos, to decide you want to force your way onto the "Destined Ones" list. That's the basis to work with.