Sentinel Archtype Revamp

[Teirusu]

While I've gotten more accustomed to using Vulnerability as a click power, I still find it underwhelming.  It could certainly use something more to it.  The times where you'd hope it be very useful, like mobs popping a T9, they still shrug it off.  And, the times where mobs don't shrug it off, it's effects are generally meaningless as that mob was going to be defeated easily anyway.

 

More -DEF would be nice, as would another -5% RES would be good too.  Something that takes out of the territory of "Did that actually do something for me or not?  I can't tell..."


Otherwise, I'll echo what @XaoGarrent said in the first page of the thread.  Sentinel Blast sets, being near clones of their Blaster/Corruptor/Defender counter-parts, just doesn't work well with them having Armor secondaries to leverage.  Add to the fact that there is basically no positive traits to a Sentinel set verse the others.

Negatives:

1.) Less range and area effect on powers

2.) Lower target caps.

 

Positives:

1.) ..Faster recharging nuke?  That does less damage and has lower radius... So, this is more of a trade-off then a positive.

 

To make things more interesting and fair, they really should have something that's a positive in the conversion and sets them apart from their other ranged counter-parts.  I'll echo what I've said before and that they should have wider cones which would make them better to play at the mid-range that they're designed for.
 

And, if we could re-design from the ground up, I'd say, give them a signature multi-mode blast power that they got earlier.  Something in the same vain as Assassin's strike and Snipe.

 

I'd imagine it could've worked something like this:

 

By default, it would operate as a long recharge single-target 'melee' range blast power.  I'm thinking something like 15-20 foot range with a recharge of 25 to 35 seconds.  It could also double as a control power.  The gimmick of the power though, is that it would do AOE splash damage, like Thunderstrike, but only under the effects of Aim.  Aim would only unlock the effect once per usage.  So, given that recharge, you'd have the splash for maybe 1/3 of the times you used the attack.

Something like would have helped to back-fill the difference between the AOE difference between them and their counter-parts while also helping them better in single-target while not being another mediocre 60 foot single-target power that some sets have 5 of.
 

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

Something like would have helped to back-fill the difference between the AOE difference between them and their counter-parts while also helping them better in single-target while not being another mediocre 60 foot single-target power that some sets have 5 of.
 

 

Sentinels are not the counterpart of Blasters and Corruptors. They are a counterpart to Scrappers.

Compared to Scrappers they DO have something Scrappers don't have: Range and Nukes. Only Electrical Melee approaches what Sentinels do on AoE.

If compared correctly to the other Armored DPS (Scrappers and Stalkers) Sentinels are almost as tough, while being able to avoid many attacks entirely, do as good or better AoE and carry an Auto Hit debuff that ignores level differences (you didn't mention this, but it cannot be ignored as that is what makes Vuln good in the situations that call for it).

Edited October 30, 2022 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

I do, however, agree that Sentinel sets, both primaries and secondaries, and epics, could be given another look over to see where they could be modified to better suit the AT.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Wavicle

[Snarky]

21 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

To make things more interesting and fair, they really should have something that's a positive in the conversion and sets them apart from their other ranged counter-parts.  I'll echo what I've said before and that they should have wider cones which would make them better to play at the mid-range that they're designed for.
 

And, if we could re-design from the ground up, I'd say, give them a signature multi-mode blast power that they got earlier.  Something in the same vain as Assassin's strike and Snipe.

 

I'd imagine it could've worked something like this:

 

By default, it would operate as a long recharge single-target 'melee' range blast power.  I'm thinking something like 15-20 foot range with a recharge of 25 to 35 seconds.  It could also double as a control power.  The gimmick of the power though, is that it would do AOE splash damage, like Thunderstrike, but only under the effects of Aim.  Aim would only unlock the effect once per usage.  So, given that recharge, you'd have the splash for maybe 1/3 of the times you used the attack.

Something like would have helped to back-fill the difference between the AOE difference between them and their counter-parts while also helping them better in single-target while not being another mediocre 60 foot single-target power that some sets have 5 of.
 

I would advocate shorter broader range AoE cones for all Sentinels. or most.  CoX always has outliers.  Something like converting two lesser performing powers in most Sentinel attack sets to clones of Kinetic Melees Repulsing Torrent (40'. 45 degree arc. or even 60+) with higher target caps, and Kinetic Melee Focused Burst. 40' ST High Damage attack.  

Edited October 30, 2022 by Snarky

[Teirusu]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Sentinels are not the counterpart of Blasters and Corruptors. They are a counterpart to Scrappers.

Compared to Scrappers they DO have something Scrappers don't have: Range and Nukes. Only Electrical Melee approaches what Sentinels do on AoE.

If compared correctly to the other Armored DPS (Scrappers and Stalkers) Sentinels are almost as tough, while being able to avoid many attacks entirely, do as good or better AoE and carry an Auto Hit debuff that ignores level differences (you didn't mention this, but it cannot be ignored as that is what makes Vuln good in the situations that call for it).

 

 

...That's really silly to say when they have the same blast sets as Blasters/Corruptors/Defender.  But sure, I'll grant you they're definitely not close to Corruptors or a Defenders, fine.

But it it certainly fair to compare them to Blasters, whom are pure DPS like Sentinels.  They both do damage from range.  One has sustains, melee attacks, and control.  The other has armor as a secondary.  So, they are most definitely counter-parts to Blasters.

 

And yes, I'm very very well aware of them being balanced like 'Ranged Scrappers'.  You should know that I know that.  But seeing as that's been mentioned, I'll further state that, while many scrapper/melee sets have range powers in them, Sentinel Blast sets have no such parity of heavy damage melee powers.  (Really doesn't have to be melee powers, per-say.  Just that there's lots of duplication in Sentinel Blasts that could have been reduced with more customization to their sets.)

 

 

Also:

 

"Auto Hit debuff that ignores level differences (you didn't mention this, but it cannot be ignored as that is what makes Vuln good in the situations that call for it)."

 

There was no point in me mentioning this, it's well known at this point.  (Not like I'm going to mention every little detail in every post, shesh...)  Either way, that doesn't change my experience or opinion that I still feel that in most situations; Vulnerability feels under-whelming.

[Tachstar]

Maybe...

 

Blasters = rifles

Sentinels = shotguns

 

Give Sents better damage -- maybe some splash damage -- at point blank range?

 

I dunno. But after the 'new' has worn off of the Sentinel revamp, I find myself gravitating back to blasters. Rolled a new fire/earth blaster yesterday. It passed the x6 team size outbreak test and hit level 11 earlier today -- still at x6. Sure, sure, lots of defeats along the way, blankety blank ruin mages, etc., but some glorious victories. Glorious! Meanwhile, my pistols/wp, dark/bio, and sonic/sr sents (and all their lesserly* leveled cousins) are gathering dust.

 

*Lesserly? Well, if it's not a word, it damn well ought to be! /e puts expensive mic carefully back in its case

[drbuzzard]

Well you are comparing the best blaster primary set against some of the lesser sentinel primaries. That's not entirely fair really. 

 

Try a fire/regen or elec/regen, those should do a better job of impressing you. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by drbuzzard

[Wavicle]

It's also pretty unfair to compare Sentinels to Blasters and Corruptors, NEITHER OF WHICH HAVE ARMOR, and then to NOT mention the added survivability that adds.
 

7 hours ago, Teirusu said:

Negatives:

1.) Less range and area effect on powers

2.) Lower target caps.

 

Positives:

1.) ..Faster recharging nuke?  That does less damage and has lower radius... So, this is more of a trade-off then a positive.

Surely Armor belongs under positives?

[Teirusu]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

It's also pretty unfair to compare Sentinels to Blasters and Corruptors, NEITHER OF WHICH HAVE ARMOR, and then to NOT mention the added survivability that adds.
 

Surely Armor belongs under positives?

 

...Not sure why you're being super nit-picky about my post, Wavicle.  Perhaps you're not understanding the point I was focused on.

My post was not about 'Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders are better because X and Y' blah blah blah.  Merely that Sentinel Blast sets give up a lot, in comparison to them, when ported over to to Sents.  They get lots of negatives tacked on, with no trade off in positives, within the blast sets themselves.  I'm just comparing the blast sets here.

Yes, of course they get armor, duh.  But Corrs/Defenders get buff/debuff sets, and Blasters get Manipulation sets.  But that's not what I'm comparing here.  Just the blast sets.


I'm actually okay with reduction of range on their attacks, I've mentioned this before.  It makes sense.  What I'm saying is that it be nice if there was some positive trade-off, within the blast sets themselves, to make them more interesting/different/more compelling to play, verse what you get otherwise.

Right now, you have Tankers that get wider cones and larger AOE spheres on their attacks compared to most other melees.  And Stalkers get AS as a signature move within their sets.

So, I think there's some wiggle room to give Sents something a bit more within their primaries for better game-play that's better refined to them being mid-range fighters.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

 

...Not sure why you're being super nit-picky about my post, Wavicle.  Perhaps you're not understanding the point I was focused on.

My post was not about 'Blasters/Corruptors/Defenders are better because X and Y' blah blah blah.  Merely that Sentinel Blast sets give up a lot, in comparison to them, when ported over to to Sents.  They get lots of negatives tacked on, with no trade off in positives, within the blast sets themselves.  I'm just comparing the blast sets here.

Yes, of course they get armor, duh.  But Corrs/Defenders get buff/debuff sets, and Blasters get Manipulation sets.  But that's not what I'm comparing here.  Just the blast sets.


I'm actually okay with reduction of range on their attacks, I've mentioned this before.  It makes sense.  What I'm saying is that it be nice if there was some positive trade-off, within the blast sets themselves, to make them more interesting/different/more compelling to play, verse what you get otherwise.

Right now, you have Tankers that get wider cones and larger AOE spheres on their attacks compared to most other melees.  And Stalkers get AS as a signature move within their sets.

So, I think there's some wiggle room to give Sents something a bit more within their primaries for better game-play that's better refined to them being mid-range fighters.

 

These are good points. Sorry if I missed them earlier.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Teirusu said:

I think there's some wiggle room to give Sents something a bit more within their primaries for better game-play that's better refined to them being mid-range fighters.

 

I agree with this....but what would you suggest?

[oldskool]

14 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Well you are comparing the best blaster primary set against some of the lesser sentinel primaries. That's not entirely fair really. 

 

Try a fire/regen or elec/regen, those should do a better job of impressing you. 

I really doubt there is a combination of powers that is going to change their opinion based on the nature of their post. 

Some people just do not like the Sentinel AT, period. There is no amount of discussion that will get them to enjoy the AT. 

[drbuzzard]

7 hours ago, Teirusu said:

So, I think there's some wiggle room to give Sents something a bit more within their primaries for better game-play that's better refined to them being mid-range fighters.

There is some of this for most sets (though not all, though I can't think of the negative examples). 

 

For example, in sonic screech for a blaster is just a stun, while in a sonic it's a high damage attack plus a stun. In archery, blasters get stunning shot which is merely a stun, for sentinels, it's a high damage attack again. In electric tesla cage is a hold for blasters with little damage, but sentinels get the hold plus big damage. This is common across the sets where individual powers which are just utility in blasters, get damage (usually big damage at that) added. I can't think of any sentinel sets where you get a mez power that lacks decent damage (stalagmite is a bit weak damage wise, but still attack worthy). 

[Frosticus]

I'm of the mindset that blaster nukes are ridiculously OP. Especially when weighed against things like troller aoe holds.

Somehow city of statues is worse than city of vaporized spawns...

 

To me sentinel nukes are exactly as they should be. I don't particularly enjoy sentinels, but their nukes are the best selling feature for me.

[oldskool]

31 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

I'm of the mindset that blaster nukes are ridiculously OP. Especially when weighed against things like troller aoe holds.

Somehow city of statues is worse than city of vaporized spawns...

Wasn't there a time when the Blaster T9's drained all endurance and had some other limitation to "balance" its damage? Also like how until Homecoming changed it, the snipes weren't really rotational powers like they are now. 

There was a point where the idea of how the Sentinel is now faired better in the "balance" that currently exists. 

[Wavicle]

Just now, oldskool said:

Wasn't there a time when the Blaster T9's drained all endurance and had some other limitation to "balance" its damage? Also like how until Homecoming changed it, the snipes weren't really rotational powers like they are now. 

There was a point where the idea of how the Sentinel is now faired better in the "balance" that currently exists. 

those changes aren’t made by homecoming. Those were on the i24 Test server when the game shut down.

 

 The sniper change is great, the removal of nuke crashes is great.

 

I think, but I’m not certain, the nukes also had their damage “normalized” instead of some mobs taking less damage. If I’m right about that, that may have been too much. Maybe the recharge is also too low?

[oldskool]

34 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

those changes aren’t made by homecoming. Those were on the i24 Test server when the game shut down.

Quick snipe with 22% to-hit was planned on the Test Server and never rolled out to Live, sure. 

However, the removal of that requirement and the current state of snipe powers *is* a HC thing. That happened in I26 Page 2. 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, oldskool said:

Quick snipe with 22% to-hit was planned on the Test Server and never rolled out to Live, sure. 

However, the removal of that requirement and the current state of snipe powers *is* a HC thing. That happened in I26 Page 2. 

Yea, again though I don’t think that’s a problem. The sniper changes simply brought parity to range vs melee.

[Frosticus]

44 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Wasn't there a time when the Blaster T9's drained all endurance and had some other limitation to "balance" its damage? Also like how until Homecoming changed it, the snipes weren't really rotational powers like they are now. 

There was a point where the idea of how the Sentinel is now faired better in the "balance" that currently exists. 

Yes, they also tanked recovery, but that was having the pendulum swung too far in the other direction. Nukes were often skipped, or required specific powers to make them more appealing (like a fire/cold corr with saturated heatloss, or x/elec blaster popping a blue then powersink). 

 

Now nukes cost a bit less than 2x a troller aoe hold, but recharge 40% faster.

Dominators have single target attacks that cost (about) as much endurance as the "cheap" nukes like Geyser, Rain of arrows, or Overcharge.

 

Even within blasters own sets, some of their secondary pbaoe attacks cost similar to nukes. I have no issue with nukes being desirable, but they are a bit "too desirable" imo.

 

Fast snipes are pretty good.

[Wavicle]

I would support putting Blaster/Def/Corr nukes on a 4 minute timer.

[oldskool]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Yea, again though I don’t think that’s a problem. The sniper changes simply brought parity to range vs melee.

 

I don't recall saying it was a problem to begin with. My point is that there was a point in time where the design of the Sentinel had its own set of merits vs the Blaster AT. 

All of the improvements to the Blaster are essentially resolving a set of problems that the Sentinel no longer solves. 

Snipes, not being rotational placed other lower tier attacks as being the go-to set up for more common damage cycles. The Sentinel spreads out its damage across other options like reducing the CC on certain powers and improving their damage. This makes it to where the Sentinel's baseline attack cycle is less spikey but also more consistent than the Blaster's. However, that isn't how this functions in the current game as it is easy enough to just have burst damage on demand in your rotation. 

The Sentinel's shorter cooldown and more available "nuke" could be countered by the Blaster's longer cooldown consequence-attached nuke (obviously that no longer exists).