Devs, please explain why you are nerfing one of the most popular activities on Homecoming

[Astralock]

4 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

So basically... you're upset because you aren't rich like some farmers and want to stop them from having a lot influence cause you don't?  You want everyone else to grind like you to make it "fair" instead of doing what they do?

 

Also... it's kinda odd that anyone would think merchers don't have significant economic power.

 

I don't get it. 😞

 

Farmers generate wealth.  Merchers redistribute wealth (usually to themselves), but don't create it unlike farmers.  That's a massive difference.

[Ruin Mage]

52 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

Is it honestly the farming that people do that bugs the non-farmers?

My issue (and mind you, I'm not out here waving my arms screaming that we need to obliterate farming) is that its in the AE - something I'd prefer to be used for Creative Missions/5-mission arcs. Farming is whatever. Leveling to 50 fast is whatever. Farming can (but also can't if someone wants to be that way) feed the "economy".

 

[Grouchybeast]

55 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

Because I'm quiet and don't bother or say anything when I log onto my farmer and go in so I'm not sure why anyone cares.  If it's the economy people are upset about, well... take a look at the gougers/resellers/hoarders etc too then.

 

I don't farm, but I also don't care about farming, at least on HC.  On live I cared a lot more, because the way the live server devs ran AE allowed it to screw up the economy and negatively affect the game.  On HC AE farming seems to be pretty much tamed and fairly harmless.

[Akalabeth]

Yeah I can see your point @Astralock .  With the amount of inflation in the game and how much the enhancements costs, what do you think would fix it though?  Stopping additional influence?  I'm not sure this is gonna make prices drop.

 

They've had super packs on sale.  It just made rich people richer and did not reduce the price of the event enhancements even though there's more of them.

[MistressOhm]

29 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

So basically... you're upset because you aren't rich like some farmers and want to stop them from having a lot influence cause you don't?  You want everyone else to grind like you to make it "fair" instead of doing what they do?

 

 

 

The opposite.  I feel as if I -MUST- turn to farming to properly build a character that would be accepted in a task force or trial.  

 

I'm a casual, so... those are now off limits also.

[Akalabeth]

Just now, MistressOhm said:

 

The opposite.  I feel as if I -MUST- turn to farming to properly build a character that would be accepted in a task force or trial.  

 

I'm a casual, so... those are now off limits also.

That's... exactly the reason why I started farming for inf.  😞  It's hard not to want to slot my characters with the important ones like the uniques and some sets as I level them so I feel like I'm doing well on a team in those. 😕  PuGs are hit and miss and often crank up the diff to Super Hardcore mode.

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

Is it honestly the farming that people do that bugs the non-farmers?  Or is it the messages in LFG like "lf ae farm pls" all day long?

 

I don't care what anyone does in the game, and I don't have any global channels in any of my tabs on any of my characters.

 

What bugs me is people claiming that game-wide changes are attacks on them personally or attempts to destroy an aspect of playing.  What bugs me is people flying off the handle and slinging shit at the HC team for not making the game conform to their specific expectations.  What bugs me is people insisting that changes have to be reverted for their exclusive benefit or demanding explanations for those changes, as though everyone on the HC team owed them a personal apology and compensation.  What bugs me is people who behave as though everything that happens is happening only to them, as if there weren't hundreds of other players.  What bugs me is people who would rather see everyone else suffer or lose an improvement than adapt themselves.

 

That's what bugs me.

[Akalabeth]

@Luminara  So it's the complaining that bugs you?

There's a lot of different viewpoints and reasons people have for hating/liking farming in the last couple pages of this thread it seems.  I think I'm gonna leave this thread be.

[Doc_Scorpion]

40 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

Yeah I can see your point @Astralock .  With the amount of inflation in the game and how much the enhancements costs, what do you think would fix it though?  Stopping additional influence?  I'm not sure this is gonna make prices drop.

Recently one of the dev's revealed that 80% of the influence entering the game was generated on a single map - the Shivan Fragment.  The map used in many farms, particularly the famous ComiCon arc AE farm.
 

 

36 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

I feel as if I -MUST- turn to farming to properly build a character that would be accepted in a task force or trial.  

 

19 minutes ago, Akalabeth said:

That's... exactly the reason why I started farming for inf. 

That's exactly what the farming changes are attempting to address.  That, compared to other avenues, it's so lucrative and so remunerative that people feel they have to farm in order to keep up...  Creating a destructive self reinforcing feedback loop.  The Devs don't care if you farm (I don't either) - but they do care about the massive imbalance that's turning the City of Heroes into the City of Farmers.

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, Astralock said:

 

Farmers generate wealth.  Merchers redistribute wealth (usually to themselves), but don't create it unlike farmers.  That's a massive difference.

That doesn't seem accurate.

 

If I buy a garbage recipe (anything selling under 10,000 inf), craft it, and use converters to turn it into an enhancement worth 2 million, have I not created wealth?  I took ingredients worth 600K or 700K and turned the value into 2 million.

 

If I then price the enhancement low enough that it sells instantly, have I not shared that wealth by allowing someone to buy something they want at a lower price than they would have been able to otherwise?

 

I actually do this, which is why this example immediately sprang to mind.

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, Neiska said:

Some people compare themselves to others to measure their own achievements.

Others like myself, compare themselves to themselves and where they used to be or where they once were to gauge their success.

 

I can't help but compare myself to everyone else. 

 

And I have to say, I'm disappointed with most of you. 

 

Y'all got to turn it up a notch or two.   BINGO!

 

[Ironblade]

51 minutes ago, MistressOhm said:

The opposite.  I feel as if I -MUST- turn to farming to properly build a character that would be accepted in a task force or trial.  

 

I'm a casual, so... those are now off limits also.

No, they're not.

The majority of players simply don't care about teammates' builds unless it's a Master badge run, a Hard Mode task force or something like that.

I know a number of people who don't bother with a 'real build' until they get to level 50 and either use SO's or common IO's until they get there.

 

Will you sometimes run into a 'build cop' on a regular task force?  Sure.  There are idiots everywhere.  Unless they're the team leader, chuckle and ignore them.  If they are the team leader, find a team led by a non-idiot.  I run the weekly task forces multiple times a week and I couldn't care less about anyone's build.

 

P.S.  On a side note, it has never been farming or marketeering that has funded my builds.  It's those multiple weekly strike targets with the double merits.

 

P.P.S.  Also, a 'proper build' can be shockingly cheap.  I built an invuln tank for regeneration.  It cost me under 40 million inf back on live to get close to 350% regen.  That wouldn't let me tank a Master of Statesman TF but it let me breeze through 90% of the task forces.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Akalabeth said:

@Luminara  So it's the complaining that bugs you?

 

The verbal abuse leveled at the HC team, the utter disregard for other players, the demanding attitude.

 

People throw around words like "bullying" and "toxic".  This is that.

[twozerofoxtrot]

Hi all, TwoZeroFoxtrot here to slightly derail the thread an point out that OP hasn't logged in since the day after posting this thread; which to now is a 15 page snarling monstrosity. 

 

What an mic drop. What an explosion walk-away. What an absolute chad.

 

 

 

Someone nerf this guy, already.

[battlewraith]

Yeah it's absolutely fucking hilarious to read some of these recent comments and then go look at what the guy actually wrote. 

If he was trolling--chef's kiss. Masterful. Maximum outpouring of self-righteous mockery for the minimum input. Instant tinfoil hat memes.

And then 15 pages later, some of the same individuals still seething about the apparent flood of verbal abuse they have to contend with, lol.

[ivanhedgehog]

16 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

not agreeing with someones viewpoint doesn’t make the content “toxic” ivan

 

i disagree with your farming view but don’t think your contributions are toxic, or hostile etc. people can have different viewpoints and coexist on the forum

 

the matter is described by some as a forum wide war, when really its a handful of threads where people go to have an argument for a laugh, like a pub of drunken sailors

deliberately taunting people with antagonistic crap like "victim complex" is needlessly toxic. not needed. COH community isnt what it used to be.

[ivanhedgehog]

7 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Why?  I mean seriously, why?  None of those groups have the potential to damage the economy or tilt the balance of gameplay that farming does.  There's no possible economic argument for taking a look at them.

BS. The hm TF launch allowed a small group of people to accumulate billions in next to nothing. It certainly shifted the balance of the economy and the devs were just fine with that. Dont try to trot out concern for the economy without remembering that. when a single player can make 3+ billion from 1 tf? yes that shifts the economy.

[ivanhedgehog]

6 hours ago, MistressOhm said:

 

The opposite.  I feel as if I -MUST- turn to farming to properly build a character that would be accepted in a task force or trial.  

 

I'm a casual, so... those are now off limits also.

do a hami raid a few nights a week and you dont need to farm.

[Uruare]

I ain't gonna bother quoting all the quotable babble.   If you're so vain that you think this song is about you, it probably is.

The 'You're Having Fun Wrong!' attitude that some live in is an old relic of this and pretty much every MMO or shared gaming space, and it's every bit as much a cancer as it always was and always will be.  

It's also just as boring and dull as it ever was.   

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

BS. The hm TF launch allowed a small group of people to accumulate billions in next to nothing. It certainly shifted the balance of the economy and the devs were just fine with that. Dont try to trot out concern for the economy without remembering that. when a single player can make 3+ billion from 1 tf? yes that shifts the economy.

Your claim is trivially falsified by comparing it to the Dev's statement as to the map where the bulk of the influence entering the game is coming from.  (Hint:  It's not a task force map.)

[Neiska]

You know, if they were really that concerned about the amount of INF being generated there are many other step's they could take to kneecap it. My first thought? Make bases have upkeep costs. You know, all that "x item cost inf" when people are base building? Yea, charge people that once a month. Make people pay rent, or a massive one-time fee to permanently own it. As much as people like to pretend to be economic specialists, they seem pretty narrow minded as far as possible fixes, which seems to be only one solution that they want -

 

NERF THE FARMS!

 

Which to me, that being only one side of the coin speaks volumes when there are a number of possible solutions instead of you know, targeting an activity that many people enjoy. Here, I'll even make a list of suggestions -

 

- make bases pay upkeep costs.

- increase the deposit/taxes on market sales.

- increase the cost of costumes.

- reduce the amount generated from other activities as well.

- add a fee to trains/boats.

- make recipes cost more.

- add a flat cost to all incarnate recipes.

 

And this is just off the top of my head. But I find it pretty telling that no other possible options have even discussed (at least here in the forums.) So the notion that the only concern in play is "wealth generation" is trivially falsified due to no small part only this one single solution being pushed and pushed hard for quite some time now. My conclusions? That it isn't about wealth generation at all, at least not from everyone. I suspect many of the anti-farmers in truth, don't care one whit about the economy, but just dislike farmers well, farming. Which logistically leads one to believe it's not about economy, it's about control. And I don't expect it to end here. I expect more nerfs to (achm) "specific" activities. Which leads me to ponder just how popular other certain activities truly are, if they have to "use the stick" to make some people stop one activity and use carrots to entice or bribe players into other activities.

 

Another point of mention is there is very little "cost of living" or expenses. In a market if you have a net positive gain with few expenses, then no matter how hard you reduce that gain the only thing that changes is the time needed for inflation to take hold. In our context, let's say they reduced AE to absolutely zero inf gain. That still wouldn't solve the issue, it would simply make it take longer to have an impact. If they really wanted to fix the amount of money in the market, they should add upkeep costs and expenses, not just hammer how much money is generated.

 

Speaking personally though? Even if they changed every drop a purple drop in some of those other activities, and tuned it so every npc and critter dropped 1 million inf per kill, I still wouldn't do it. Why you might ask? Because I have absolutely zero desire to play with a part of the community that has all but choked on its spite for myself. Usually, I am quite content to live and let live and ask the same. Apparently, that is too much to ask or even expect.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Neiska

[Etched]

@Neiska, You might remember the good ole days when purps were 250+ mill or LotG Procs were 50+ mill. Honestly, compared to those days the market is cheap. I see a lot of your suggestions as punishment to new players who don't have a pot to piss in, let a lone INF to pay a Tram, Base, Incarnate, or any other fees. I see what you ask as a turn off to anyone that is startin fresh with the game and i'm pretty sure the DEVs want new players verses loosing players because they are taxed on everything. 

 

Here's a fix... remove drops all together and let the Devs post set prices on everything at the AH.

@Etched 

[ivanhedgehog]

6 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Your claim is trivially falsified by comparing it to the Dev's statement as to the map where the bulk of the influence entering the game is coming from.  (Hint:  It's not a task force map.)

I didnt say that, try reading. people doing the 4 star ATF could make 3 billion on the prismatics alone. Shifting that kind of cash to a few players that quickly will tilt the economy. at this point so much inf is sitting on so many unplayed charcters that while they can tell you totals, that isnt the amount of inf actually in play.

[Grouchybeast]

12 hours ago, Ironblade said:

If I buy a garbage recipe (anything selling under 10,000 inf), craft it, and use converters to turn it into an enhancement worth 2 million, have I not created wealth?  I took ingredients worth 600K or 700K and turned the value into 2 million.

 

If I then price the enhancement low enough that it sells instantly, have I not shared that wealth by allowing someone to buy something they want at a lower price than they would have been able to otherwise?

 

No.  What you've done is moved some wealth around, and deleted some from the game via the crafting and auction house fees.  There is actually *less* inf in the game than there was before you crafted the item and sold it.  To put it in concrete figures:

 

Player A has 50 million inf. 

Player B has 50 million inf.

Between them, there is a total of 100 million inf in the game world.

 

Player B places a bid on the AH for an enhancement for 2,000,000.  They now have 48,000,000 inf (although they could cancel the bid and reclaim the inf at no cost),

 

Player A crafts that same enhancement (say 100,000 inf crafting fee, using a junk recipe and salvage that dropped during play.)  Player A now has 49,900,000 inf.

 

Player A lists the recipe for a million inf, which instantly costs them an unreclaimable 50,000 inf as a listing fee, leaving them with 49,850,000 inf.

It sells instantly to Player B for 2 million inf, who now has 48,000,000 inf, no takebacks.

 

Player A claims their inf from the AH, less the remaining auction house fee of 150,000 inf (making a 10% fee in total).

 

Player A has 51,700,000 inf

Player B has 48,000,000 inf

Between them, there is a total of 99,700,000 inf in the game world.  300,000 inf is gone for good.

 

(If Player A buys the recipe and salvage, then you can subtract another 10% of what they spent from the game as well.)

 

If you defeat an enemy, or sell something to an NPC vendor, then you've created inf.  The AH does the opposite.

 

[Neiska]

3 hours ago, Etched said:

@Neiska, You might remember the good ole days when purps were 250+ mill or LotG Procs were 50+ mill. Honestly, compared to those days the market is cheap. I see a lot of your suggestions as punishment to new players who don't have a pot to piss in, let a lone INF to pay a Tram, Base, Incarnate, or any other fees. I see what you ask as a turn off to anyone that is startin fresh with the game and i'm pretty sure the DEVs want new players verses loosing players because they are taxed on everything. 

 

Here's a fix... remove drops all together and let the Devs post set prices on everything at the AH.

@Etched

 

No, that was before my time. I never played live but I certainly heard stories.

 

As far as "what about the new people," those same new players get merits from story arcs, or can sell one rare salvage for 400,000 on the AH and have plenty of INF to get them all the way to 30. I have done many self-found "iron man" runs, and the amount a new player gets is pretty much a non-issue, with or without farming. What it would affect, is the increased expenses for not just new players but for everyone. (thus reduce the inf in the market) And isn't that the purpose of the AE changes? And precisely how many "new people" do we get anymore? I would also argue that INF isn't the end all dynamic, game knowledge is. And the knowledge is there for anyone who cares enough to look it up.

 

If the amount of wealth in the market is the problem, then reducing the amount generated is only one side of the issue. Adding increased costs/expenses is the other side of the balancing mechanism, and I have yet to see any serious discussions about that. And I am going to predict that most people will be against that, even the anti-farmers. Because its easy to point out a problem and shoulder the burden on someone else, but for it to affect everyone equally? We can't have that can we.