What is vectored knockdown versus normal knockdown?

[KaizenSoze]

I saw this line in the Page 5 notes under the Force Field changes.

 

"Now uses Vectored Knockdown"

 

Can someone explain to me what that means versus "normal" knockdown?

 

Bonus, any other knockdown/knockback tidbits you would like to share.

[TheZag]

It is this

 

 

The short version is that knock can be forwards or backwards or up or anywhere in between.  Singularity uses it for the vacuum effect,  something that was impossible under the original knockback code.

 

[Luminara]

54 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Can someone explain to me what that means versus "normal" knockdown?

 

The base Knock mechanic can be altered by adjusting the magnitude.  Below 0.75, targets don't move from their position, they're knocked off of their feet.  At or above 0.75, targets are knocked away from the KB source, with the distance determined by the magnitude.  This is true for both Knockback and Knockup.

 

With vectored Knock, the target is always sent in the specified direction.  Up, down, seventeen degrees to the right, toward the character, up and to the left of the character, anything.  A power can be designed to knock a target in any chosen direction and it will always move in that direction.  Whether the Knock magnitude is 1000 or 0.1, the target will only ever be moved in the specified direction.

 

It means vectored KD is always KD.

 

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Bonus, any other knockdown/knockback tidbits you would like to share.

 

0.67 is the most common KD magnitude.  That number wasn't selected at random when Cryptic, they actually designed Knock to have a threshold.  That threshold corresponds to a player's 0.67 KB power hitting a -1 foe (1.1 multiplier), thereby increasing the KB to mag 0.737, which rounds up to 0.74.  0.74 is the limit for KD with the non-vectored mechanic.  This ensures that a player fighting -1 foes has the same experience as he/she would fighting +0 foes, +1 foes, et cetera.  It also creates verisimilitude when fighting -2 or lower foes.  At and below -2, the multiplier pushes the Knock mag above 0.74, and targets go flying, giving the player a dramatic example of how much more powerful the character is in comparison to the -2 or below foe.

 

A 0.03 Knock magnitude is just as effective as a 0.74 magnitude, for the purposes of knocking a target down, even when fighting foes +4 to the player's character.  As long as the final Knock effect is 0.01 or above, and the target isn't immune to Knock or under the effects of Knock protection, it's knocked down.

 

Many rain-type powers (which are actually pseudo-pets with PBAoEs) have a mag 0.1 KD, so they can be stacked without causing KB.  Stacking powers with a 0.67 magnitude, though, could cause some KB to occur, depending on timing.  When more than one Knock affects a target in the same server tick, it's treated as a single effect.

 

KB and KU are the same base mechanic, but tagged differently, so they can be mixed without turning into KB.  They can also override one another, causing a knocked down target to flip, or a flipping target to be knocked down mid-flip.

 

Standard KB always the player character's position calculating KB direction, or the pseudo-pet's position if that's what's causing the KB.  Explosive Blast, for example, sends enemies flying away from the character, rather than away from the animated point of impact for the energy ball.  This makes most KB in the game very predictable and easy to manipulate to the player's benefit.  Pseudo-pet KB powers, on the other hand, like Nova, can send enemies flying in every direction.  Bonfire, for instance, when used in the middle of a spawn, well scatter the spawn.  But using Bonfire at the edge of the spawn, or pulling things into it, causes those enemies to be knocked away from the pseudo-pet, instead of scattered.  This is key to effective use of pseudo-pet KB.  By collecting the enemies in a tight group or making them come to the pseudo-pet, the KB is controlled.

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

With vectored Knock, the target is always sent in the specified direction.  Up, down, seventeen degrees to the right, toward the character, up and to the left of the character, anything.  A power can be designed to knock a target in any chosen direction and it will always move in that direction.  Whether the Knock magnitude is 1000 or 0.1, the target will only ever be moved in the specified direction.

So what "specifies" the direction.

 

If anyone says it is the relation of the caster to the target I will hunt you all down.  That is NORMAL KNOCKBACK.

[Luminara]

41 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So what "specifies" the direction.

 

With vectored Knock, the developers.  They can set it to work like the current KB system, or randomize it (remember the Brawl wonkiness in April?  that was this), or set it to down, up, up and slightly over your character's right shoulder, whatever they want.

[MTeague]

Hypothetically, what Knock magnitude would you need for something like a Skyrim Giant club attack?

.... asking for a friend.

 

[StrikerFox]

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, Snarky said:

So what "specifies" the direction.

 

If anyone says it is the relation of the caster to the target I will hunt you all down.  That is NORMAL KNOCKBACK.

 

It's not relative to the caster. It's relative to the point of impact.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Wavicle

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

It's not relative to the caster. It's relative to the point of impact.

It was always relative to the point if impact.  I am still not understanding.  The Devs decide is the best I heard

 

look, i fire a energy blast ST the target goes away from me.  An EB ball the targets go away from the center of the ball.  Look how simple that was to say

 

Where does vectored KB send enemies?

[srmalloy]

27 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Where does vectored KB send enemies?

Vectored KB fixes a problem with KB that existed from the first days of the game. Originally, KB was always away from the character using the power. PBAoEs and cones were fine -- the KB was away from the origin of the attack, which is the expected result. However, targeted and location AoEs were broken -- if you fired M30 Grenade at a mob in the center of a group of mobs, they would all be knocked back away from you -- even the ones standing between you and where the grenade landed.

 

At its simplest, vectored KB fixes that by making the center of the attack's effect the origin point for determining KB, in essence making targeted and location AoEs act like PBAoEs. But it also allows for other directional KB effects to be defined -- a line AoE that does knockback sideways, for example, which could be made into a power for the Super Speed pool where you designate a target position and rush there so fast that the shockwave knocks mobs to the sides as you zoom past them. Or tweaking a Battle Axe attack that animates as a right-to-left swing so that its KB is angled left away from you, rather than straight back.

[TheZag]

55 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Where does vectored KB send enemies?

 

Old knockback works basically as you said earlier with the target only being knocked away from the caster.  Vectored knockback code lets the devs set the direction and distance of the knock for each ability separately.  It can function the same as old KB and most knockback abilities have been unchanged at this point.  Singularity uses vectored knock with each vector calculated from the target towards the caster to achieve the reverse repel.  And as the singularity moves,  the targets continue to move towards where it is and not where it was when the enemy first got sucked in.

 

Vectored knock is also independent of magnitude.  VK mag .74 knockdown will knock down a target as usual and VK mag 50 knockdown will still knock down the target and not knock it away.  So knockdown will stay knockdown regardless of magnitude.  Knockback, knockup, knock towards all can function without the .75 threshold changing the KB<>KD.  Most abilities havent been switched over to the new system yet but it will allow for new interactions such as an enemy that resists KD below a certain magnitude and is more likely to be knocked down as the magnitude increases but never gets knocked back.

 

[Snarky]

8 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

Vectored KB fixes a problem

Thank you.  I understood that!  (and everything else you said, I just chopped for space)  I always thought the targeted AoE from EB acted like a PBAoE, as I said above.  Never used it much and nerfed it when I did with I/Os.  

 

Thank you for the clarification!

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, TheZag said:

 

So knockdown will stay knockdown regardless of magnitude.  Knockback, knockup, knock towards all can function without the .75 threshold changing the KB<>KD.  

 

Another great explanation.  understood all that but the above explanation was gold

[srmalloy]

The HC staff could have just altered location and targeted AoEs to put the KB origin at the center of the power effect, but by allowing a direction to be defined in the power, it opens the door to creating powers with more exotic KB effects in the future.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Snarky said:

It was always relative to the point if impact.

no, it used to be relative to the caster. 

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

no, it used to be relative to the caster. 

in a line from the caster....

 

....to the point of impact    so, it was always relative to the point of impact

Edited November 12, 2022 by Snarky

[Wavicle]

45 minutes ago, Snarky said:

in a line from the caster....

 

....to the point of impact    so, it was always relative to the point of impact

no.

 

 Grab an energy Blaster with Explosive Blast.

 

 No matter what you do it will always knock enemies away from YOU. Target a guy in back and it will NOT knock them toward you, it will knock them away.

 

 Then grab a Seismic Blaster with Meteor. Drop it at the back of a spawn. They will be knocked TOWARD you, away from the projectiles point of impact.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Wavicle

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

no.

 

 Grab an energy Blaster with Explosive Blast.

 

 No matter what you do it will always knock enemies away from YOU. Target a guy in back and it will NOT knock them toward you, it will knock them away.

 

 Then grab a Seismic Blaster with Meteor. Drop it at the back of a spawn. They will be knocked TOWARD you, away from the projectiles point of impact.

This has all been resolved upthread 

 

i still maintain that mathematical analysis will reveal that you and the target are part of the geometry in the original version of KB and therefore the KB is relative to the point of impact.  Maybe I am thinking about it wrong. To me it always looked like a pool stick and a ball.  The ball goes where it goes relative to the point of impact which is dependent on pool stick.  Now the Devs have added “English” to the game

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

This has all been resolved upthread 

 

i still maintain that mathematical analysis will reveal that you and the target are part of the geometry in the original version of KB and therefore the KB is relative to the point of impact.  Maybe I am thinking about it wrong. To me it always looked like a pool stick and a ball.  The ball goes where it goes relative to the point of impact which is dependent on pool stick.  Now the Devs have added “English” to the game

 

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

I just know that with Vectored KB I can use the power to push them in any direction I choose, depending on who I target or where I place the drop. With Original KB I have to move MYSELF to change the direction.

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

I just know that with Vectored KB I can use the power to push them in any direction I choose, depending on who I target or where I place the drop. With Original KB I have to move MYSELF to change the direction.

Okay.  Look at a pool ball.  Look at a pool stick.  where the ball goes is relative to where the stick strikes it.  Not even being Snarky.

 

This diagram is the new version I guess with Vecored KB.  Before it would just go straight away from you

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Snarky

[Wavicle]

Original KB.pdf Vectored KB.pdf

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Okay.  Look at a pool ball.  Look at a pool stick.  where the ball goes is relative to where the stick strikes it.  Not even being Snarky.

 

This diagram is the new version I guess with Vecored KB.  Before it would just go straight away from you

 

 

 

Exactly. With Vectored KB the difference is where you target the attack, not where you stand.

[Snarky]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Exactly. With Vectored KB the difference is where you target the attack, not where you stand.

from my limited understanding....no,   it is based on the "english" the Devs code into that particular attack.  They individualize the vector on each attack type.  Sometimes it looks like the above.  or it might always bend 90 degree right.  

[Wavicle]

55 minutes ago, Snarky said:

from my limited understanding....no,   it is based on the "english" the Devs code into that particular attack.  They individualize the vector on each attack type.  Sometimes it looks like the above.  or it might always bend 90 degree right.  

yes, ok, true.

I was using Meteor as my reference. 

[MistressOhm]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:14 AM, Snarky said:

It was always relative to the point if impact.  I am still not understanding.  The Devs decide is the best I heard

 

look, i fire a energy blast ST the target goes away from me.  An EB ball the targets go away from the center of the ball.  Look how simple that was to say

 

Where does vectored KB send enemies?

 

For most powers with knock effects, it doesn't change much.  The vector is through the caster, to the point of impact, and whatever gets hit gets ragdolled along that line.  But, if memory serves, knockback was always in the XY plane only (horizontal), so even if you were overhead and slightly to the side of a spawn, a cone attack's knockback would behave as if you hit them 'on the level' and they'd go flying sideways.   Now, your XYZ positioning in space has an effect on what direction spawns get launched.  Hover over a group and launch Energy Torrent, and they get slammed DOWN, not so much AWAY.  

 

For ranged AOE's (not cones but explosive effects) the vector is calculated from where the AoE goes off, and instead of slamming everything away from the caster (previous model), now they blow targets away from where the grenade or energy ball or bucket of water impacted.  Granted most of these have a central target as the aim point, and that spawn might get yeeted in random ways, but theoretically since they're the source point of the knock, as well as affected by it, they should either go straight up, or get knocked down.