I miss the old Mercy Island

[gabrilend]

I'd just love it if it could be added back into the game somehow. I loved levelling through that zone, it felt perfectly tuned and the fantasy was all there! I don't much care for the new design - why was Arachnos pushed out of their stronghold on the island? Shouldn't Fort Darwin be their most defensible spot? Why haven't they taken it back?

 

I feel like the new longbow spawns they added are clumsy. They're all the same and it feels like a rushed hack job - most enemy spawns in this game are unique and diverse, but the gobs of Longbow that were added are just... Boring. They're two minions and a lieutenant, every time. B O R I N G.

 

And where are the Snakes? I miss those slimy fellas. I miss the fantasy of choosing between a mercenary outside of the Arachnos and between the mystic who broke you out of the Zig. I miss travelling along the shore because I didn't know where else to go. I miss exploring the rooftops, because they're ALL CONNECTED (so cool). I miss beginning in the slums and working my way up - why the heck do we start in the decent side of town? We're VILLAINS we deserve to start with the trash. I miss the design of the Arachnos fortress, I miss Fort Darwin. When I came back to Homecoming I was so confused - why do we skip half the zone? Turns out you just turn around and it's confusing. Idk.

 

I think it'd be neat if there was a way to visit old Mercy Island. You don't have to make it the default (because I seem to be the only one who cares?) but still it seems like an egregious omission considering the entire point of the game is to restore what was once special. Mercy Island was changed after the game went downhill, I don't even remember the new zone being the way it is. Please change it back.

[Rudra]

They do take it back. That is the arcs you run through in Mercy now unless you go to the original contacts. The Snakes are still there. You can find them by any hole in Mercy and on the roof tops. They can also be found in the missions. Primarily from Mongoose and Kalista.

[Astralock]

Do the "Breakout" tutorial, and you'll be given the choice of either Kalinda or Matthew Burke as your first contact at the end.  Even if you don't do the Breakout tutorial, you can still walk up to them prior to level 5 and introduce yourself.  And as Rudra mentioned, there are still plenty of Snakes around Mercy Island.

[gabrilend]

Right but it's all just *wrong*. I'm attached to the zone itself, to the land beneath my feet. Sure you can find snakes, but they aren't hanging out in the city anymore. I don't really do missions, I mostly just patrol, and it feels weird that the entire place is completely upended because of some event in the lategame story that I didn't even pay attention to.

 

Plus, I miss Fort Darwin.

[Rudra]

The Snakes are in the city. They still pop out of the holes just like they did in the previous iteration of Mercy. They can still be found in the alleys and behind the buildings just like they could in the previous iteration of Mercy. They still sun themselves on the roof tops just like they did in the previous iteration of Mercy. They are a bit harder to find because of Longbow's presence in the city, so that area no longer has them, but the rest of the city where the Snakes gathered before still has them.

 

You can still patrol for xp in Mercy too. I do on my starting red side characters all the time. Smack down a few red RIP to get to level 3, then pop outside the city to hunt higher level mobs.

 

I agree that if Mercy Island does not have an accessible echo, then it needs to be made available. However, you can still patrol for xp in the current iteration of Mercy and find all the same mobs and missions/arcs from prior to Longbow invading. (Edit: And even do a short arc that drives Longbow out of the city. Keep following those arcs and you drive Longbow out of Fort Darwin. Then when you run around Mercy Island, Longbow no longer has any presence in the city or fort.)

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rudra

[gabrilend]

Okay forget the snakes then, you're right they're still there. What about the progression through the zone? For a new level character I think the original storyline made the most sense - Arachnos is infesting this island with a small outpost where the Destined Ones (a small contingent of super-powered peoples that have potential and may be swayed to Lord Recluse's cause) can learn and grow. I liked the idea of starting with the worst-of-the-worst, the most downtrodden (in the ruined half of Mercy) because it feels better to start at the bottom and work your way up. Starting in the middle feels like... Going forward, then back.

 

Before, Arachnos was in full control of the island with Fort Darwin on one end and the city / port on the other. Now it's contested, with Longbow just sorta squatting on the north-east side? I mean looking at this map:

(for reference, if the image doesn't work)

 

There's a gradual flow from the top right to the bottom left - you advance slowly through the zones, skipping the dark red area if you want. It's like a path the character goes down. When in the darker yellow zone (the city half of Mercy Island), they have the choice to beat up Arachnos in their base or take the ferry to Port Oakes, where they can take on the Mafia, or maybe beat up some fish-mutants. That sounds pretty cool... But now there's no choice.

 

The new zone journey:

 

You still have the green safe area, and the path is relatively consistent until you hit the red area (Fort Darwin), but there's a lot of doubling-back that you're forced to do. I get that can be a good way to encourage new players to visit the Arbiter and quartermaster more often, but ideally the reward of having a new power available would be enough. Also it's more difficult to create a cohesive story because you're moving around so much. It makes the entire zone feel smaller, as you're constantly doubling back. Humans crave novelty, so you're unlikely to return and explore an area to completion if you are forced to turn around halfway through the patrol. Especially egregious is the long travel time from the only red zone (Fort Darwin) and the Arbiter / way out (through the port). Most characters won't have a travel power by this point in the levelling path, so they'll have to sprint all the way back. That sucks, and is boring. The old layout had a much smaller travel time, as you only had to travel ~3 blocks to get from the highest level area to the exit.

 

Anyway it's not just the snakes, the entire zone is borked.

 

EDIT: That's not to mention the fact that Longbow has *no reason* to be here. There's no useful resources they can use in Fort Darwin, and their mini-soirees into the island haven't claimed any actually valuable resources - some buildings? Great... So why are they still there? I dunno it feels like it should have been a mission instead of a longstanding thing because their invasion just doesn't make tactical sense.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by gabrilend

[Rudra]

The original story line is still there. Walk up to Burke, he is at the same spot he was previously. Talk to him. He will send you after Arachnos and Snakes. Walk up to Kalinda. She is standing right there where you first appear. Just slightly up the stairs. Talk to her. She still sends you on the same missions she always did. The original story line has not been removed or changed. You want your character to ahve broken out of the Zig? Then do the Breakout tutorial when the game asks you if you want to go to the tutorial when you finish character creation. Mongoose is still right where he always was. So is Dr. Geist or whatever that mad scientist's name is.

 

Most of what you posted is your opinion. Yes, on the previous map, you moved progressively from top to bottom. Now you move progressively from near the bottom to the top. With the flier at Fort Darwin taking you back to Mercy City. It may take you back as long as you can reach it, but it definitely takes you back as part of the final mission of the final arc of the new story. And even on the previous map, there was a lot of doubling back. You would run out of Fort Darwin, do something, then run back to Fort Darwin over and over until the contact sent you to Mercy City. This is not a reason to bring back the previous map and throw out the current one.

 

Also, Longbow has always been on Mercy Island. They were around the city itself and not far from the fort. You could find them on the shore out of the way or everywhere ringing the city except for the front area. They were scouting the island and looking for vulnerabilities to exploit for their pending invasion. The difference between the maps? Is Longbow was scouting (and even attacking to a minor extent) on the previous map, and have completed their invasion on the current map.

 

I don't remember if Mercy Island exists as an echo zone. And if it doesn't, it should so players can go back and run through the previous version of the zone. You are not giving a good reason for reverting the map though.

[golstat2003]

Yep, they are NOT going to revert the map. I would be against that.

 

An echo though would be good. And as others have pointed out the old contacts still exist. 

[gabrilend]

39 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Yep, they are NOT going to revert the map. I would be against that.

 

An echo though would be good. And as others have pointed out the old contacts still exist. 

 

Why not?

 

I don't know what an echo is but it's a way to play through the old zone, right? Are all the NPCs in the same places and can you do it from level 1? The contacts are fun to do once or twice, but for me the real bulk of the game is the levelling process via patrolling. Each time it's a new route, and you see different parts of the city. It's a great experience, but Mercy Island feels wrong. I don't know how else to explain it, I feel like there was something that was fundamentally lost when they changed it.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The original story line is still there. Walk up to Burke, he is at the same spot he was previously. Talk to him. He will send you after Arachnos and Snakes. Walk up to Kalinda. She is standing right there where you first appear. Just slightly up the stairs. Talk to her. She still sends you on the same missions she always did. The original story line has not been removed or changed. You want your character to ahve broken out of the Zig? Then do the Breakout tutorial when the game asks you if you want to go to the tutorial when you finish character creation. Mongoose is still right where he always was. So is Dr. Geist or whatever that mad scientist's name is.

 

Yep, but the contacts are obviously easy to change. All you have to do is move their character object, update the quest text, and change the location of the missions. Easy peasy. The harder stuff, like hand-crafting a zone (as they did before the launch of CoV) is lost during the patch cycle. So what did they do? They just sneezed gobs of Longbow all over the island. They're all the same, especially at low levels when there's no rocket troops or specialized guys - it's boring because there's so many.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Most of what you posted is your opinion. Yes, on the previous map, you moved progressively from top to bottom. Now you move progressively from near the bottom to the top. With the flier at Fort Darwin taking you back to Mercy City. It may take you back as long as you can reach it, but it definitely takes you back as part of the final mission of the final arc of the new story. And even on the previous map, there was a lot of doubling back. You would run out of Fort Darwin, do something, then run back to Fort Darwin over and over until the contact sent you to Mercy City. This is not a reason to bring back the previous map and throw out the current one.

 

The flier only activates for the mission, right? What if you aren't doing the missions? I'm talking about actually exploring the zone and levelling the old-style way.

 

Also you only had to go back once or twice before the contact gave you their cell-phone number. It also coincides with the levelling rate - by the time you finish the first mission you'll need to level, but by the time you get to level 4 you'll have done enough work for Burke / Kalinda that they'd give you their phone number, and you only have to go back to train / buy / sell enhancements. But that cycle stays in place no matter what zone you're in, so I don't think it's really relevant. I'm talking about doubling back on your path through the zone, not the back-and-forth of exploring, training, and questing.

 

You're right it's not a reason. I was just explaining what was missing from the new map.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Also, Longbow has always been on Mercy Island. They were around the city itself and not far from the fort. You could find them on the shore out of the way or everywhere ringing the city except for the front area. They were scouting the island and looking for vulnerabilities to exploit for their pending invasion. The difference between the maps? Is Longbow was scouting (and even attacking to a minor extent) on the previous map, and have completed their invasion on the current map.

 

Yep, exactly. They've always been here but it's been a minor presence at best. They were scouting, like you said, and that was fine. You rarely saw them, maybe did a mission or two against them, and they kept their distance. But now they're all over the place! It's weird, they don't belong there. This is supposed to be the lowest of the low scummiest places in the world - like Mos Eisley but worse. And idk it kinda loses that feeling when you adjust your perspective to the town. I mean, it felt like a real city before that people actually lived in - and it was *horrible*. Life on Mercy Island was just the worst, but people still lived there. It was beautiful.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I don't remember if Mercy Island exists as an echo zone. And if it doesn't, it should so players can go back and run through the previous version of the zone. You are not giving a good reason for reverting the map though.

 

I don't know what kinds of reasons would be impactful. I gave the ones that were the most important to me, but I still don't know why anyone would be against this. An echo zone is just an alternate path, right? Like choosing between the different tutorials - each offers a different experience and it's pretty neat.

[Greycat]

I honestly rather agree with the OP, frankly. I find Longbow in Mercy island as - frankly - ridiculous as Arachnos *taking over parts of Paragon.* (Which should pretty much result in the ROgue Isles being steamrolled by the US military.)

 

Plus, while it's true I'm not fond of backstories being forced in certain ways (like the whole Zig breakout thing,) starting in Fort Darwin made sense for you. You were just yoinked out of the Zig, stuck in a flyer - where did you start? In an Arachnos base, in front of a flyer (where there are Longbow doing calisthenics now.)

 

I think both starting zone changes were just ... not improvements. If they wanted new contacts, they could've just added Twinshot and Graves "extended tutorials" arcs without it. But, reverting it would take a *lot* of work, I suspect. I doubt we have the old map setup - physically it's the same, but messed around with.

 

Which  comes to the echo zone suggestion...

 

If you look at what we have as Echo zones, they're basically other *zones* - Galaxy, obviously, Atlas is the old version, Faultline has old geometry, even the RCS is different in many ways. (Plus, even if we *could* get it as an echo, you can't get contacts and missions in Echo zones... which is part of what the OP is talking about. And you have to ask for an Ouro portal to get there.)

 

So. Yeah. You know, I miss the original Mercy Island and found it preferrable to what we have now, but I don't think it *is* revertable, or even easily made into an echo. And that rather sucks.

[Arc-Mage]

Maybe an Echo: Mercy is in order? You would have to ask if the original version of Mercy is still a viable thing or not.

[Rudra]

No argument that original Mercy Island felt different than new Mercy Island. However, the author's complaints boil down to the following:

 

1) The direction of progression has changed.

Direction of progression through a zone is more or less linear just as it was on the original map. If you follow the new arcs for the new version of the zone, you move from running around in Mercy City doing missions/arcs to moving progressively towards Fort Darwin. As opposed to moving from Fort Darwin to Mercy City almost bee line and then running around in circles in Mercy City doing the other missions/arcs. The net difference? The order is reversed.

 

2) The original story line was better than the new story line.

The original story line is still there, completely unchanged, with the contacts in plain view ready and able to give it to you.

 

3) Longbow doesn't fit.

Longbow has always been there. Not at the docks or the gates of Mercy City, but everywhere else around the city. Very visible. Not to mention the Longbow scattered around the ruined cityscape saying things like "Shh. Here comes another." when a character got close before attacking the character. And at the starter levels, the Longbow most typically present were the Longbow Guardians and ... I think Longbow Sergeants. Even back on the original map. Once you started encountering level 5+ Longbow is when the different types of minions became more evident, I believe.

 

4) The Snakes are missing.

The Snakes are everywhere they were previously unless there is a set Longbow presence there.

 

5) The author finds the new Mercy Island boring.

Nothing I can say to that. There are players that rather enjoy the new Mercy Island. There are players that would rather have the previous version back. Just like prior to the change, there were players that rather enjoyed Mercy Island and players that found it boring and wanted it changed to be more interesting.

 

If the author just wants to patrol the zone for xp? (S)he can do so. Right now. As the map currently is. If the author wants to run the original missions? (S)he can do so. Right now. No need for Ouroboros to access previous content no longer available. If the author wants to run the new arcs? (S)he can do so. Right now. All of the author's arguments in this debate have been proven invalid. The only thing left to address is the author's dissatisfaction with the current version of the zone. And while the contacts and their missions/arcs would not be available in an echo zone, the author would still be free to run patrols as (s)he sees fit on a map (s)he prefers, All without needing to take away a map and content other players are enjoying.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to remove unnecessary "i" from "Longbow". And again to correct "too" to "to".

[gabrilend]

45 minutes ago, Greycat said:

If you look at what we have as Echo zones, they're basically other *zones* - Galaxy, obviously, Atlas is the old version, Faultline has old geometry, even the RCS is different in many ways. (Plus, even if we *could* get it as an echo, you can't get contacts and missions in Echo zones... which is part of what the OP is talking about. And you have to ask for an Ouro portal to get there.)

 

So. Yeah. You know, I miss the original Mercy Island and found it preferrable to what we have now, but I don't think it *is* revertable, or even easily made into an echo. And that rather sucks.

 

It's really sad to hear you say that, but you make some convincing points. If it's impossible to revert / transfer in some way (echo), then it truly is a deep loss. I'm sorry but it's good to hear someone else commiserates with me.

[Scarlet Shocker]

I also agree with the OP.

 

I'm really amazed that Longbow were allowed to gain headway in RO. So long as Recluse is at the head of Arachnos that cannot stand - his entire position depends on it politically. If Longbow have taken over Mercy, then he would be deposed by somebody because he's been shown to be too weak to retain charge over his holdings.

 

Fort Darwin is an important strategic Arachnos base. To lose it means his position is untenable, and either Arachnos  crumbles from within or is ousted by Longbow, heroes and Mercy becomes just another US imperial outpost.

 

There is a good story arc to be had both before and after - perhaps the new Mercy would be a good midgame arc for villains to reclaim and boot Longbow out and then a late game arc would enable them to repel an incoming Longbow invasion after which the status quo maintains

 

There's also the element of "feel" - Mercy in its original iteration felt right. You're a nobody, sprung from gaol by Arachnos and given the chance to make it in an arena where the winner takes all. You're "special" - one of Recluse's Chosen Ones. That's not even remotely obvious in the new zone content. In the current Mercy you're just one of many, little more than an urban terrorist blowing up random Longbow as a two bit act of revenge.

 

There's also the implausibility of it all. We all know that as the phrase goes "Longbow have some serious funding" - but we also know that in the current Mercy Island setting their resources are stretched thin. Very thin. The world is on a knife edge and it's touch and go whether Primal or Praetorian earth ends in the ascendency. They really wouldn't be taking on Arachnos in their own hood at the same time unless absolutely forced to - and Arachnos have been strengthened by Praetorian tech too!

 

Plus the Snakes would be at Longbow's heel all the time. They have nowhere else to go - but they're not going to let somebody invade their hood just like that. It would be in their interest to form a (somewhat mistrustful) alliance with Arachnos to maintain the status quo than permit Longbow to increase their footfall in Mercy. The enemy of my enemy and all that.

 

While there was a lot of good stuff to come out of Praetorian content, this was mostly a hack job and a few ill-conceived ideas slapped together simply to provide a new "beginner experience" which was arbitrary and unnecessary and frankly provides a poorer starting position than previously.

 

Somebody forgot the old adage "if it ain't broke.."

[Naomi]

11 hours ago, gabrilend said:

When I came back to Homecoming I was so confused - why do we skip half the zone?

 

Just to be clear, the update occurred before Homecoming, during Issue 21.

 

100% behind this though on every point. The whole flow of the zone was ruined, and the new villain experience hasn't felt right since. It's very clear from the original design that it was intended to be a linear progression style map from A to B, which not all zones are, but it worked very well for Mercy.

 

If the goal was to make the new player experience feel more exciting or interesting (for new players), I think the execution the first time around had more heart. It feels more like it was an unnecessary update that was lumped in because Atlas got a face lift (which was great) and a new Hero tutorial.

 

The Longbow invasion story progression in my opinion should have been executed differently. Right now it feels like if someone edited in portions of Red Dawn into Scarface. There's too much going on and the zone is already out-leveled much more quickly than it used to be.

 

On the technical side of things, the phasing, spawn placements and speed-spawning by themselves objectively need work, they have no life or charm to them and create no memorable experiences.

 

[nihilii]

I don't mind the new Mercy, but I'm 100% with gabrilend in feeling like the flow has become weird and awkward. Old design made use of the core geography of the map and moved you logically, new design moves you in non-patterns without clear landmarks or progression.

Also echoing Naomi on spawns. Boy does it feel gimmicky to watch 2 longbows pop in front of you, slap them, then watch 2 more identical longbows pop up 20 feet away. This is the good old MMO sin that moves a game from immersive experience to theme park.

[nihilii]

9 hours ago, gabrilend said:

Why not?

 

I don't know what an echo is but it's a way to play through the old zone, right? Are all the NPCs in the same places and can you do it from level 1? The contacts are fun to do once or twice, but for me the real bulk of the game is the levelling process via patrolling. Each time it's a new route, and you see different parts of the city. It's a great experience, but Mercy Island feels wrong. I don't know how else to explain it, I feel like there was something that was fundamentally lost when they changed it.

If the devs can implement it, an Echo Zone would give you the old Mercy Island, minus the NPCs. All other mobs would be there in their usual spots, and you would be able to access it through Ouroboros and level through patrolling.

So this would be doable from level 1, even though it wouldn't be a direct option straight from creation.

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

I also agree with the OP.

 

I'm really amazed that Longbow were allowed to gain headway in RO. So long as Recluse is at the head of Arachnos that cannot stand - his entire position depends on it politically. If Longbow have taken over Mercy, then he would be deposed by somebody because he's been shown to be too weak to retain charge over his holdings.

 

Fort Darwin is an important strategic Arachnos base. To lose it means his position is untenable, and either Arachnos  crumbles from within or is ousted by Longbow, heroes and Mercy becomes just another US imperial outpost.

 

There is a good story arc to be had both before and after - perhaps the new Mercy would be a good midgame arc for villains to reclaim and boot Longbow out and then a late game arc would enable them to repel an incoming Longbow invasion after which the status quo maintains

 

There's also the element of "feel" - Mercy in its original iteration felt right. You're a nobody, sprung from gaol by Arachnos and given the chance to make it in an arena where the winner takes all. You're "special" - one of Recluse's Chosen Ones. That's not even remotely obvious in the new zone content. In the current Mercy you're just one of many, little more than an urban terrorist blowing up random Longbow as a two bit act of revenge.

 

There's also the implausibility of it all. We all know that as the phrase goes "Longbow have some serious funding" - but we also know that in the current Mercy Island setting their resources are stretched thin. Very thin. The world is on a knife edge and it's touch and go whether Primal or Praetorian earth ends in the ascendency. They really wouldn't be taking on Arachnos in their own hood at the same time unless absolutely forced to - and Arachnos have been strengthened by Praetorian tech too!

 

Plus the Snakes would be at Longbow's heel all the time. They have nowhere else to go - but they're not going to let somebody invade their hood just like that. It would be in their interest to form a (somewhat mistrustful) alliance with Arachnos to maintain the status quo than permit Longbow to increase their footfall in Mercy. The enemy of my enemy and all that.

 

While there was a lot of good stuff to come out of Praetorian content, this was mostly a hack job and a few ill-conceived ideas slapped together simply to provide a new "beginner experience" which was arbitrary and unnecessary and frankly provides a poorer starting position than previously.

 

Somebody forgot the old adage "if it ain't broke.."

The thing about Longbow being allowed to make headway in the Isles is the same thing about Arachnos being able to make headway in Paragon. Arachnos has had myriad plans in work to conquer Paragon City. Longbow has had myriad plans to clean up the Isles. Even when the Praetorians were a major threat, both Longbow and Arachnos kept up their plans to deal with the other. The only time Longbow and Arachnos work together, is when they work with Vanguard, the Goldbrickers, the Luddites, and every other faction in the game to survive Mot. And even then, they aren't working together, just keeping to their own to fight Mot's forces. (Edit: Praetoria is such a major threat that no one works with anyone else to deal with them except for Vanguard.)

 

As for the player character being special? The player character is one of apparently hundreds of characters that might be the Destined One. Kalinda has no clue who the Destined One really is, just who might have the ability to fulfill her vision. That was even true before the VEATs were introduced and the player Arachnos forces the list to actually change and include him/her as a possible Destined One. It isn't until late game where the player character has proven himself/herself/itself as truly special from among the literal army of villains designated as Destined that the player character is finally marked as "special".

 

As for Fort Darwin, even before the Longbow invasion of Mercy was made in the game, I was always left marveling at how vulnerable the fort was. It had no perimeter defenses. It's main entrance was a massive walkway right into the heart of the fort. It lacked any sizable force to defend it and was too small to even accomodate a sizable force. Even when your character infiltrates it to take it back from Longbow and you make your way through the interior, as accessed by an unguarded door at the back of the fort, the fort is tiny. It is barely an outpost. As opposed to Mercy City with its massive encircling walls, multiple Arachnos fliers stationed there, and its larger troop presence. So of course Fort Darwin falls. (Also, I don't recall Fort Darwin ever being flagged as an important location for Arachnos. Mercy Island was basically the island Arachnos barely gave a crap about. Losing Cap au Diable, or Nerva Archipelago, or especially Grandville would have marked Recluse as too weak to lead Arachnos. That is why Longbow has such a large presence contesting Nerva and launches the same offensve they used on Mercy against Cap au Diable.)

 

As for the US military steamrolling Arachnos? It is mentioned at multiple points in the game just how much more powerful than any nation's military Arachnos is. Arachnos is held in check by specialized forces built up specifically to deal with super villainous threats (Longbow, who routinely fails to do so) and by the heroes.

 

As for Arachnos having a beachhead position in Faultline? Faultline had no Longbow presence, being an abandoned zone held by Clockwork, Vahzilok, and I don't remember what other factions. It was a sealed off hazard zone. The city finally started rebuilding and has both a Longbow and hero presence again, but in the time it took them to get their foothold in Faultline, who is to say Arachnos didn't beat them into the unwatched zone? So now Arachnos has to be driven out of the zone. Which is part of what the character embarks on as part of the new Faultline zone's arcs.

 

So here is the problem I have with the OP. The OP wants to take established story and just throw it out. Forget everything happened. It doesn't matter how many players are enjoying the new content and the fact the game story is progressing. Instead, regress the story because (s)he doesn't like it. As opposed to further progressing the story. At the end of the current Mercy Island arcs, Longbow is booted out of Mercy City and Fort Darwin. New content can be developed from that point. Players can again be dropped off by Arachnos at Fort Darwin because Arachnos doesn't give a flying wombat's rear about the character in question and the character has to again progress forward in proving himself/herself/itself to be what Arachnos is looking for. Just like Faultline as a zone can also be further progressed to after Arachnos' position has been dealt with in the zone. Will any of this be quick? No. Absolutely not. Will this entail a great deal of work by the devs? Yes. Absolutely. What it won't do however, is step on the current story for the sake of nostalgia. The story can move forward. It should not move backward.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rudra

[Glacier Peak]

I'm a bit of both - enjoyed the feeling of breaking out of the Zig and crawling my way up in the Arachnos organization or striking it out on my own. Also like the current zone for its convenience - for example, when I die, the hospital isn't a 30 minute Sprint away (it's centralized), 

 

To be fair to Homecoming, the changes were made before their time. And it's really a result of the insanely high leveling speed from Levels 1 to 10 in this game that warps players past all that nostalgia.

[gabrilend]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

So here is the problem I have with the OP. The OP wants to take established story and just throw it out. Forget everything happened. It doesn't matter how many players are enjoying the new content and the fact the game story is progressing. Instead, regress the story because (s)he doesn't like it. As opposed to further progressing the story. At the end of the current Mercy Island arcs, Longbow is booted out of Mercy City and Fort Darwin. New content can be developed from that point. Players can again be dropped off by Arachnos at Fort Darwin because Arachnos doesn't give a flying wombat's rear about the character in question and the character has to again progress forward in proving himself/herself/itself to be what Arachnos is looking for. Just like Faultline as a zone can also be further progressed to after Arachnos' position has been dealt with in the zone. Will any of this be quick? No. Absolutely not. Will this entail a great deal of work by the devs? Yes. Absolutely. What it won't do however, is step on the current story for the sake of nostalgia. The story can move forward. It should not move backward.

 

Okay first of all why do you keep putting she in parenthesis it makes me feel weird - Second I don't want to regress the story. I think it'd be fine as an echo zone because I never do the contact missions anyway (done 'em once or twenty times, doesn't matter anymore) as long as I can patrol through the zone at level 1 and generate my own story in my head. Call it roleplay or whatever but that's how I play. I see a lot of people doing the same thing (less so these days /cry) so I know I'm not alone. Plus it's been in the game since the beginning to have "looking for patrol" in the LFG interface, so I kinda figured it was a recognized playstyle? Anyway I'd be fine if the current story stayed the same, especially if there was the option to get the best of both worlds and have the player start in Fort Darwin but still have access to the old (new?) contact missions.

 

Alas this is all a moot point because the change happened before Homecoming, and thus there's no way to achieve it. I hope I'm wrong but just thinking about it logically that's the conclusion I come to. Sad day for all Mercy Island enthusiasts.

[gabrilend]

31 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'm a bit of both - enjoyed the feeling of breaking out of the Zig and crawling my way up in the Arachnos organization or striking it out on my own. Also like the current zone for its convenience - for example, when I die, the hospital isn't a 30 minute Sprint away (it's centralized),

 

It'd be cool if there was a way to have the new hospital in effect if you died in the second half of the zone. Maybe keep a small Arachnos outpost where they currently are with a hospital, quartermaster, and arbiter, so that you have a "checkpoint" for new players so they aren't as punished when they die (maybe even fighting the high level Arachnos mobs in the red area)

 

31 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

To be fair to Homecoming, the changes were made before their time. And it's really a result of the insanely high leveling speed from Levels 1 to 10 in this game that warps players past all that nostalgia.

 

Yep and it was changed during the patch that made the game F2P, aka the most traumatic event to happen in the latter portion of the games lifecycle... It feels like this open wound that has never been able to heal. Homecoming has done a great job, a FANTASTIC job they literally could not be better. I cried when Homecoming released. I'll never play on another server, I love it here too much. I'm pissed at the F2P update, not anything they ever did.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The thing about Longbow being allowed to make headway in the Isles is the same thing about Arachnos being able to make headway in Paragon. Arachnos has had myriad plans in work to conquer Paragon City. Longbow has had myriad plans to clean up the Isles. Even when the Praetorians were a major threat, both Longbow and Arachnos kept up their plans to deal with the other. The only time Longbow and Arachnos work together, is when they work with Vanguard, the Goldbrickers, the Luddites, and every other faction in the game to survive Mot. And even then, they aren't working together, just keeping to their own to fight Mot's forces. (Edit: Praetoria is such a major threat that no one works with anyone else to deal with them except for Vanguard.)

 

As mentioned - *both are ridiculous.* Longbow's a little more grey as they're not any nation's military or police force (supposedly a UN force, as I'm recalling. Which is problematic in different ways.) Arachnos *is* their military. It doesn't matter - as you state later - if they managed to sneak into Faultline (and I'll note, if you go to Echo:Faultline, there's a badge at the far south that mentions spiders... whether that was added post-opening-zone-update or not, I can't say.) We wouldn't stand for - say - Pakistan or Libya sneaking in and setting up a military base in Idaho... or taking over part of New York as a military enclave. But that's what we're handwaving Arachnos doing.

 

For either side... what they had before? Agents sneaking in and doing whatever? Sure. And that's something that can be dealt with with small forces.

 

*At Most* what either side should have, territory-wise, is an embassy type compound (which is about the only way I could fit the Longbow enclave in Nerva and have it make the least bit of sense) for a physical presence. Have agents, have safehouses, sure. But the (I agree with "hamfistedly implemented" here, too) military *occupation* of another nation's territory? No. It's annoyed the hell out of me since it was done.

 

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

As for Fort Darwin, even before the Longbow invasion of Mercy was made in the game, I was always left marveling at how vulnerable the fort was. It had no perimeter defenses. It's main entrance was a massive walkway right into the heart of the fort. It lacked any sizable force to defend it and was too small to even accomodate a sizable force

 

The Isles are, as the name states, islands. Their first defense is "Ocean." They obviously have airpower (and submarines.) That's not an insignificant hurdle. Ask the UK. Hell, Cuba's 90 miles from FL and if the US wanted (for whatever reason) to invade, it'd *still* be a substantial task. Even if we had something like a real life Portal Corp to help, it takes time to move people and things.  To get to that main entrance walkway, you have to get *to* Mercy Island, survive defenses on the way, land troops (under fire,) etc. The troops that were there were plenty to drive off the Skulls, Hellions, Snakes, etc. that were there.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

As for the US military steamrolling Arachnos? It is mentioned at multiple points in the game just how much more powerful than any nation's military Arachnos is. Arachnos is held in check by specialized forces built up specifically to deal with super villainous threats (Longbow, who routinely fails to do so) and by the heroes.

 

 

What's the population of the Isles? Even if we went "some small percent are metahumans," and "some percent of *those* have useful abilities and decide to become heroes," yes, Arachnos is getting steamrolled. Especially given how often Recluse and the patrons get smacked down - by heroes *and* villains.

 

Honestly, it's the only way a Longbow occupation *would* make sense. The US (and allies) drive Arachnos out of the US, then invade this obvious hostile nation, topple the government, and stick Longbow in as an occupying peacekeeping force until a new government is in place. But that's not what's happening. Instead we're doing the equivalent of "Durrr, look, the Russians took over Los Angeles and Miami? They've got troops stationed there and they're kidnapping and otherwise threatening civilians? That's nice. Wonder what the sportsball score is."

 

It's ridiculous. Same with "sneaking into Faultline while it was sealed off." Agents? Sure. Safehouse? I can buy that. Built up military base? No. I don't care how "sneaky" Arachnos is, that would *not* be something that could be done with nobody noticing.

 

(Oh. And I have to go back to the point about progression the OP made, which has been echoed. When you started at Fort Darwin... yes, the progression made sense. Starting off beating on low level mobs around the fort, eventually getting down to the city... where you find yourself at the ferry to go to the next zone. It was, frankly, rather nicely laid out.)

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

So here is the problem I have with the OP. The OP wants to take established story and just throw it out. Forget everything happened. It doesn't matter how many players are enjoying the new content and the fact the game story is progressing.

 

Did it *really* "progress" the story? I'll grant redside you at least thwart Longbow somewhat. Blueside? You ... rescue Mrs. habashy and out one mole. Arachnos is still there. And as far as players "enjoying" the story? I don't think I've ever heard anyone ask to team to do those arcs. (Or Twinshot or Graves, who are utterly unrelated and would work regardless of the invasions.) I don't think either would end up on the majority of "top ten favourite or memorable arcs." Or even *remembered* arcs, for that matter. If they were popular, DFB wouldn't be three of the most typed letters on either side....

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, gabrilend said:

 

Okay first of all why do you keep putting she in parenthesis it makes me feel weird - Second I don't want to regress the story. I think it'd be fine as an echo zone because I never do the contact missions anyway (done 'em once or twenty times, doesn't matter anymore) as long as I can patrol through the zone at level 1 and generate my own story in my head. Call it roleplay or whatever but that's how I play. I see a lot of people doing the same thing (less so these days /cry) so I know I'm not alone. Plus it's been in the game since the beginning to have "looking for patrol" in the LFG interface, so I kinda figured it was a recognized playstyle? Anyway I'd be fine if the current story stayed the same, especially if there was the option to get the best of both worlds and have the player start in Fort Darwin but still have access to the old (new?) contact missions.

 

Alas this is all a moot point because the change happened before Homecoming, and thus there's no way to achieve it. I hope I'm wrong but just thinking about it logically that's the conclusion I come to. Sad day for all Mercy Island enthusiasts.

I say (s)he because it is shorthand for she or he. I don't presume to know anyone's gender.

 

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

As mentioned - *both are ridiculous.* Longbow's a little more grey as they're not any nation's military or police force (supposedly a UN force, as I'm recalling. Which is problematic in different ways.) Arachnos *is* their military. It doesn't matter - as you state later - if they managed to sneak into Faultline (and I'll note, if you go to Echo:Faultline, there's a badge at the far south that mentions spiders... whether that was added post-opening-zone-update or not, I can't say.) We wouldn't stand for - say - Pakistan or Libya sneaking in and setting up a military base in Idaho... or taking over part of New York as a military enclave. But that's what we're handwaving Arachnos doing.

I'm not going to justify what the Live devs did. I'm just giving the reasons I see it working. Notwithstanding individuals' displeasure with the situation, it does make sense. It may cause the US to go "Okay. You invaded. We're retaliating.", but given how Arachnos operates, it does not preclude them doing what they did in Faultline. For all intents and purposes, Faultline was abandoned. That's why there was such a large Clockwork presence there running unchecked. That is why there was such a large Vahzilok presence there running unchecked. Because like with the Praetorian invasion which saw no military assets assigned to deal with an entire dimension looking to invade and wipe out any resistance in Primal Earth, it was assumed for whatever reason that 'the heroes will handle it'. Or Longbow will handle it. Or Vanguard will handle it. Realistically speaking, all the current version of Faultline did was move Arachnos operations out into the open. There are Arachnos safehouses and bases and lairs scattered all over Paragon City. Just with Faultline, it was not contested by Longbow, or the PPD, or even the heroes to any real extent, so Arachnos would be able to fortify their position. And because they did so as part of the search for the psychochronometron or whatever it is called, they started operating openly and now they have to be driven out.

 

I see you complain about Arachnos being in force in Faultline, but what about the Sky Raiders? An independent mercenary force known to have betrayed their US military origins to engage in global terrorism and piracy has established a base of no small size in Faultline as well. You only comment about Arachnos though. Why isn't the military hunting down the Sky Raiders? Or why is their presence in less need of your commentary in Faultline than Arachnos?

 

We can go back and forth about Longbow in Mercy and Arachnos in Faultline. And to be clear, I would vastly prefer not to. That would just be an argument, and I would rather avoid it. Longbow is dealt with in Mercy Island as part of the Mercy Island arcs made available when the new version of the map was released. Arachnos has their position at the very least compromised by hero activity as part of the Faultline arcs. Given what is known about Longbow and their actually illegal in US and UN eyes activities, or Arachnos with their flagrant illegal activities despite their current politically acknowledged existence, the Warburg situation, and the availability of Arachnos drones, fliers, Arachnoids, Praetorian technology Warworks, the loyal supers in Arachnos, and the ability to be leveraged Destined Ones; what happened still makes sense. And the US would not launch an open attack on Arachnos for their activities without requisite Longbow and hero support. Or at least NATO or the UN backing them. (Edit: That is how the game world is set up. The heroes are the main actors, not the government.) And the military can not actually directly call on the heroes (or Longbow) themselves. Which is why the Malta group exists.

 

Mercy Island has been invaded by Longbow. Longbow controls Fort Darwin. Longbow has a foothold in Mercy City. And your aspiring villain is recruited into driving Longbow out of Mercy Island. First by eliminating their presence in Mercy City. Then by destroying their still being received and positioned supplies, then by striking at their allies to isolate them, then by finally driving longbow out of Fort Darwin. A progression that makes perfect sense. And sets up the possibility of an updated Mercy Island with whole new content added that lets villains start at a fort with no actual defenses.

 

Faultline has been invaded. And that is revealed by the new presence of Longbow and PPD as part of the rebuilding process. Arachnos' position is made exploitable by the actions of a hero exploring the lost history of the zone, and their primary facility is destroyed. A less profound progression than Mercy Island, but one that still leaves open the way to further rebuild the destroyed zone which is in development, and also gives an opening to remove the Arachnos presence.

 

There are a multitude of events in the game that no nation in the real world would ignore. Armies, navies, and air forces the world over would be mobilized to prepare for and deal with the Praetorian invasion. They would be mobilized to contain the Devouring Earth threat, particularly the Hamidon. They would be mobilized to deal with the Sky Raiders as a force. They would be mobilized to deal with Mot and the Banished Pantheon. The Vahzilok would never be able to become as large an organization operating in the public's view the way they are. The Hellions and Skulls would be rounded up, their numbers cut drastically. The entire game handwaves away national responses to national and international problems because it is a game about supers and it is the players that are supposed to be effecting the major changes.

 

(Edit: And even when there is a military force present and involved? They are summarily rolled up by whatever faction in the game they are opposing. See the Sutter TF as the main example I can remember. Also the Rula-Wade bit. Where is the US Air Force when the Sky Raiders are strafing the characters on US soil with stolen prototype US fighters?)

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to correct "able" to "ability". And to change "fair" to 'clear". And to add several lines.

[gabrilend]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I say (s)he because it is shorthand for she or he. I don't presume to know anyone's gender.

 

That's why Shakespeare invented "they" my guy

 

EDIT: Also I have a female avatar ? ? ?

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Mercy Island has been invaded by Longbow. Longbow controls Fort Darwin. Longbow has a foothold in Mercy City. And your aspiring villain is recruited into driving Longbow out of Mercy Island. First by eliminating their presence in Mercy City. Then by destroying their still being received and positioned supplies, then by striking at their allies to isolate them, then by finally driving longbow out of Fort Darwin. A progression that makes perfect sense. And sets up the possibility of an updated Mercy Island with whole new content added that lets villains start at a fort with no actual defenses.

 

Yeah okay but what if I don't like that storyline? What if I thought it was perfectly fine the way it was before, at the launch of CoV? What if I think the newly updated patch is poorly designed and completely ignores what made Mercy Island a great zone to begin with? I don't like having the same story every time, that's why I don't do the contact missions. But now it feels like I'm just a pawn in Arachnos's game instead of a free agent who is *incentivized* to work with Arachnos, but ultimately am insignificant enough to be able to go my own way. Now it feels like I'm thrust onto the frontlines of a war, when before it was an uneasy stalemate. Idk I just miss the old Mercy Island because I believe it was well designed. The new one tries to set up this "Arachnos vs Longbow" fight that feels a little too much like "Horde vs Alliance" for my tastes. TAKE ME BACK TO THE PAST PLS

Edited December 31, 2022 by gabrilend

[Rudra]

44 minutes ago, gabrilend said:

 

That's why Shakespeare invented "they" my guy

 

EDIT: Also I have a female avatar ? ? ?

 

 

Yeah okay but what if I don't like that storyline? What if I thought it was perfectly fine the way it was before, at the launch of CoV? What if I think the newly updated patch is poorly designed and completely ignores what made Mercy Island a great zone to begin with? I don't like having the same story every time, that's why I don't do the contact missions. But now it feels like I'm just a pawn in Arachnos's game instead of a free agent who is *incentivized* to work with Arachnos, but ultimately am insignificant enough to be able to go my own way. Now it feels like I'm thrust onto the frontlines of a war, when before it was an uneasy stalemate. Idk I just miss the old Mercy Island because I believe it was well designed. The new one tries to set up this "Arachnos vs Longbow" fight that feels a little too much like "Horde vs Alliance" for my tastes. TAKE ME BACK TO THE PAST PLS

I'm not going to run off people's avatars. If you say you are male or female, I will endeavor to remember. (No promises on how well I will remember though.) "They" as a pronoun is also currently associated with those who do not identify with a specific gender. So for me to use that pronoun is to imply you are one of those individuals. Simpler for me to use (s)he. If this displeases you, I apologize.

 

As for the rest? As a villain character, from the moment your character is created unless you skip the tutorial, you are a pawn of Arachnos. They break you out of the Zig to use as a pawn to ensure Recluse's ultimate victory. You are free to not be a pawn as you see fit. For instance, you do not have to do the new arcs where the Arachnos agent uses you to drive out Longbow. Skip the tutorial, and you aren't een introduced to him unless you walk up to him and say hi.

 

The Arachnos-Longbow bit is very much the same thing as the Horde-Alliance bit. Except you the player are not bound to play through the content that uses you as a pawn in their conflict if you don't want. Or play through the content and head canon that you are doing something that benefits you in doing so or are acting to do something else and the mission is just your cover. Or play through and be that pawn for either side. Or play through and don't care. Whatever you want to do.

 

If you want the current Mercy Island story to be changed so you start from Fort Darwin? Propose a new story that moves forward from that point. Or just ask for the devs to come up with one and progress the story to after Longbow's defeat.

 

If you just want to run around original Mercy Island (and are fine with no contacts or missions), then ask for an echo of the original zone to be brought back.

 

If you don't want to ask in broadcast for someone to drop you a portal to Ouroboros to reach the Mercy Island echo zone (if it is put in), then ask for a means of accessing the echo zones without having to go to Ourobors first.

 

What you won't get though is two versions of a single zone with all its contacts, missions, or arcs at the same time. At least, I don't expect that will ever happen.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "r" to "simpler".