(Yet) Another Mastermind idea

[Wavicle]

A multistep proposition:

 

1. Make the Upgrades into Toggles so that they just take effect immediately on any henchman you summon.

 

2. Give those toggles fairly High endurance costs, around .39 or .52 per second.

 

3. Remove the Endurance penalty from most (or all) other MM powers.

[Black Zot]

I think the devs already said somewhere that giving MMs anything resembling fair endurance costs was a non-starter.

[Player2]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:44 PM, Black Zot said:

I think the devs already said somewhere that giving MMs anything resembling fair endurance costs was a non-starter.

That's fair.  I, too, dislike MMs and want them to suffer hardship.  Nice to know the devs and I are on the same page with this one.

[biostem]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:44 PM, Black Zot said:

I think the devs already said somewhere that giving MMs anything resembling fair endurance costs was a non-starter.

I think a lot of it stems from this (false) notion that MMs get "free" attacks via their pets.  This seems to ignore the relative fragility of said pets and the extra time and end involved in the near-constant resummons of them in order to remain effective...

[Sakura Tenshi]

@biostem
But that makes no sense with their recent changes to make the attacks actually more important to grab and use. Especially Robotics since they lost the -regen assault bot used to have!

[biostem]

Just now, Sakura Tenshi said:

But that makes no sense with their recent changes to make the attacks actually more important to grab and use. Especially Robotics since they lost the -regen assault bot used to have!

What do the MMs personal attacks have to do with what I said?  I was talking about the (misguided) rationale that since the pet attacks don't cost the MM themselves any end, they had to be penalized somewhere else, or are you saying that now since they are encouraged to use said personal attacks more, that rationale is no longer applicable?

[Sakura Tenshi]

@biostem Basically the latter. MM pet attacks are not necessarily 'free' attacks, especially since even a full squad of MM pets will spend a longer time wailing on a single minion far longer than most player characters who aren't a controller. On top of that, and in a case fairly specific to Robotics, they removed utility that had been with the pets to give to the MM's personal attacks.

[Rudra]

What does how quickly the MM's minions can take down mobs as compared to other ATs have to do with whether or not they are considered free attacks for the MM not having to expend END to maintain those attacks?

 

Edit: For that matter, how does the Assault Bot's -regen being moved to the Robotics MM's inherent attacks have to do with that consideration either?

 

Edit again: Or for that matter, what does MM pet fragility have to do with that consideration? (Also, please remember that at least some MM pets can now have their resilience or defense directly boosted by the MM. See Ninjas and Robotics specifically.)

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Or for that matter, what does MM pet fragility have to do with that consideration?

Because the multiple recasts of the pet summon powers and associated upgrades should be taken into consideration regarding the overall end expenditure of the MM vs other ATs, when it comes to balancing their power costs...

[Rudra]

That we can agree on. Especially if the MM is forced to constantly re-summon and re-upgrade their pets like they do on some very MM unfriendly missions. (Mostly TFs and SFs or trials, but some maps in regular missions are basically nightmare fuel for MMs.) However, from what I understand, the cost of the MM's personal attacks are based on the MM using his/her/its support abilities to keep the pets alive and murdering things rather than the MM himself/herself/itself using their own attacks. (The personal attacks were granted their new abilities, even if stolen from their pets, because players were clamoring for MM personal attacks to be more effective so they are more worth taking.)

 

So, the MM's ability to keep said pets alive should also factor into the cost of the pet summons and the personal attacks. After the pets are summoned and upgraded, the expectation is the MM will devote a not insignificant amount of effort in protecting those pets. So while frustrating, the fragility is decidedly intentional. And not really a factor for the cost of the MM's personal attacks. (Edit: And as long as the MM can keep those pets alive, they are attacking at no END cost to the MM.)

Edited January 13, 2023 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

I changed my mind about my ideas in the OP, I agree that's not the way.

For now it's just wait and see.

[plainguy]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:37 PM, Rudra said:

That we can agree on. Especially if the MM is forced to constantly re-summon and re-upgrade their pets like they do on some very MM unfriendly missions. (Mostly TFs and SFs or trials, but some maps in regular missions are basically nightmare fuel for MMs.) However, from what I understand, the cost of the MM's personal attacks are based on the MM using his/her/its support abilities to keep the pets alive and murdering things rather than the MM himself/herself/itself using their own attacks. (The personal attacks were granted their new abilities, even if stolen from their pets, because players were clamoring for MM personal attacks to be more effective so they are more worth taking.)

 

So, the MM's ability to keep said pets alive should also factor into the cost of the pet summons and the personal attacks. After the pets are summoned and upgraded, the expectation is the MM will devote a not insignificant amount of effort in protecting those pets. So while frustrating, the fragility is decidedly intentional. And not really a factor for the cost of the MM's personal attacks. (Edit: And as long as the MM can keep those pets alive, they are attacking at no END cost to the MM.)

Assuming the Mastermind can keep the pets alive..

What should be determined is the DPS of the pets vs similar attacks for that tier based on other AT against the DPS factor. 
I am sure there is a DPS value each AT is expected to put out or not put out. 

I am guessing each tier power has a max and min dps rating so they ( the devs ) know where a powers stands. 

That being said.. 
Mastermind Tier 1 powers I am sure will be lacking in the sense they cap out a max of lvl 48 and the Tier 2 pet will be capped out at level 49. 
Where at everyone's attacks including the masterminds personal attacks do not cap out. 

So that being said.
Mastermind Tier 1 Minions should be hitting and putting out the same DPS as every other AT of course minus the AT DPS Factor. 

To be clear again, I am sure that they ( the devs) have some thing in place that says this attack from this archtype should be doing this much damage and not more than this much damage to balance it out against other archtypes. 

It would be ridiculous that a Mastermind specific ranged attack for example based on solely the attack would be out DPS'ing a Blaster or Corruptor for example.

So my question is, have the Devs looked into this? 

Then add in some real life variance into this like resummoning. Let them equate what a is expected or would be expected in game play. 

Maybe look at live in game data from masterminds and the actual amount of resummoning per pet type.  
Maybe they look back and see a Robot mastermind on average is resummoning 5 times an hour, whereas a Ninja might be resummoning 8 times an hour. 
Which would mean Ninja on average have a less dps per hour rating then robots.. Because re-summoning and upgrading is down time. 
 

Edited January 15, 2023 by plainguy

[plainguy]

Said this before,  I will say it again.

The pets should come automatically summoned with upgrades once you pick the power. 

So at level 50 when summoning pets you pay the 6, 19 and 13 endurance then 23 endurance for the 2 pet upgrades. You pay no more for pet upgrades as long as you have a pet out. 
So only on a full wipe do you pay full boat again.

This would allow for more of a fluid game play for masterminds. 

I would like to also say that pet summoning should come with an immunity timer. Meaning the pets cannot be harmed for X amount of seconds after summoning.  Personally I notice that Mobs can attack pets and pets cannot fight back or will not fight as they are being summoned. So basically mobs are getting in free hits on the pets whom are defenseless. 
But again I am mentioning it but should be a different topic.  Just address the pet upgrade gripe. 

[Wavicle]

My guess is the devs don’t want us to be able to have a continuous stream of cheap fully buffed pets. They want resummoning in combat to be risky.

[Rudra]

What @Wavicle said. The struggle of managing pets, including keeping them alive, is a core part of the MM AT. Otherwise, the AT would basically never be at risk of defeat. Especially with the new pet summon recharge rates. With the near instant recharge, already fully upgraded pets would be an infinite army to just swamp the opposition with. (Edit: Especially since you can just order the expensive T3 pet to Stay at or Go To a distance behind the fight so you always have an upgraded pet 'safe' from the mayhem unless an ambush hits it from behind.)

 

Edit again: I definitely like the window of immunity for the pets when summoned though. Even if it also applied to rezzing Freakshow and spawning mobs during raids.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Even if it also applied to rezzing Freakshow and spawning mobs during raids.

It already does. Try to target a rezzing Freakshow, and you'll see that they complete their rez animation, and a second or two past that, before they're even targetable, much less attackable. And mobs spawning in during things like the Nemesis and Rikti raids are even worse -- mobs will spawn in, become targetable, in many cases fire off their own attack, and only then do they become attackable. And targeting is further complicated by the mobs that spawn in, become targetable, and then despawn without ever becoming attackable, wasting your time trying to attack mobs that are invulnerable.

[Rudra]

I meant MM pets being able to attack them. MM pets can attack spawning mobs during raids like the Rikti invasion and they can attack Freakshow while they rez. I would be fine with losing that because the mobs shared the pets brief invulnerability as proposed. (Edit: Have the pets on aggressive, and watch them tear apart spawning units and rezzing Freakshow.)

Edited January 16, 2023 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

I meant MM pets being able to attack them.

It's all pets, actually; it has its limits, but you can target through a pet during an invasion and be able to attack mobs you would be unable to attack on your own. I have my suspicion that this is due to the pet logic being entirely on the server, letting them get targets the moment the server enables them, while a character attacking involves several handshakes with the server, delaying response.

[plainguy]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:34 PM, Wavicle said:

My guess is the devs don’t want us to be able to have a continuous stream of cheap fully buffed pets. They want resummoning in combat to be risky.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 7:25 PM, Rudra said:

What @Wavicle said. The struggle of managing pets, including keeping them alive, is a core part of the MM AT. Otherwise, the AT would basically never be at risk of defeat. Especially with the new pet summon recharge rates. With the near instant recharge, already fully upgraded pets would be an infinite army to just swamp the opposition with. (Edit: Especially since you can just order the expensive T3 pet to Stay at or Go To a distance behind the fight so you always have an upgraded pet 'safe' from the mayhem unless an ambush hits it from behind.)

 

Edit again: I definitely like the window of immunity for the pets when summoned though. Even if it also applied to rezzing Freakshow and spawning mobs during raids.

I don't know the numbers or how to accurately get the numbers. Further the Devs don't need to prove SH!T to me. 

But I would like to see the the DPS numbers of the Tier 1 pets vs a level 50 mob based on the Mastermind DPS rating which includes resummoning as needed to complete the fight.  Then if the numbers add up, then I wouldn't keep pushing the issue.

My personal belief is that between the level difference and the resummoning that the total DPS for the Tier 1 pet is under performing compared to whatever is expected for a similar power for that level. 

If I am still not making sense I will try to explain it this way.

For the sake of clarity. If a Mastermind can only do 80% of the max damage a Blaster can, then it will take that much longer to kill a mob. 
So a 1000 HP mob would take 10 hits from a Blaster level 1 attack power doing 100dps over X amount of time, whereas a Mastermind Tier 1 pet would should take 12.5 attacks doing 80dps over X amount of time. 

So in theory if both attacks used 3 endurance with a recharge rate of 3 seconds it would take a Blaster 30 seconds and 30 endurance to kill the mob off, whereas the Tier 1 pet would take 37.5 second and 37.5 endurance to kill the mob off. 

But that is assuming the Tier 1 pet were equal in level to the Blaster level 1 attack which they are not. The Tier 1 pet is 2 levels lower at level 50. So in essence it is a level 48 attacking a level 50. So there are not to hit mechanics and lower DPS values that come into play because they are level 48. 

The next issue is are we saying that 3 Tier 1 pets are at 80% value in DPS output to a level 1 Blaster attack?
If so, then if one pet is lost the DPS output would decrease and the kill time would increase even more. 

I understand the quick notion that comes up is the pets are fire and forget. In this simple scenario the pets and the mob keep slugging it out until the Mastermind, Pets or Mob dies. 
But we do need to account for resummoning time. We need to account for defenses and resistances. Basically actual game play. 

Again I also know there can be a rebuttal of yea, but that is just your Tier 1 pet.. You have other pets as well attacking that mob. 
My response is do you? Is it a requirement to have ALL your pets attack one mob at a time?
Mind you this is what do. I go top down in strength and let the AOE damage kill off the minions. 
But I don't know what others do or dare say what they are required to do in their own gameplay.  There is a reason why you can control 3 sets of pets independently.

Simply put, without doing all the number crunching and testing and statistics.. I will say Tier 1 pets suck and are lacking. 

As has been stated numerous times Masterminds clearly show their weaknesses during TF and are useless at higher TF settings. 

The Devs should look at the Tier 1 pet output. 
There has to be some numbers or based rating that say .1 endurance equals .50 DPS per second then modified by AT value. Followed by some kill ratio factor. Meaning players should be able to smash buttons to kill X amount of mobs per hour to feel entertained and not feel bored or have a feeling of a sluggish slow paced Archtype. 

If Tier 1 pets are not meeting these basic needs or values then something is wrong with them.    
 

 

[Rudra]

Numbers:

 

Blaster Assault Rifle Burst power:

16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.0% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

31.9883 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.61s (100% chance) after 0.3s (target = player)

[MagExpr]% Damage (All) Strength (self only) for [DurExpr]

          Duration Expression: power.base>activatetime + 7.5 Magnitude Expression: 0.066 * power.base>activatetime / power.base>areafactor

 

MM Thugs Mercenaries tier 1 pet Burst power:

8.2581 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.5% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

14.5384 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance)  (target = player)

 

Both ATs at level 50. Both powers unenhanced. All data pulled from City of Data. Powers chosen because they are shared by both.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct MM power set name.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Rudra said:

Numbers:

 

Blaster Assault Rifle Burst power:

16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.0% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

31.9883 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.61s (100% chance) after 0.3s (target = player)

[MagExpr]% Damage (All) Strength (self only) for [DurExpr]

          Duration Expression: power.base>activatetime + 7.5 Magnitude Expression: 0.066 * power.base>activatetime / power.base>areafactor

 

MM Thugs tier 1 pet Burst power:

8.2581 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.5% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

14.5384 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance)  (target = player)

 

Both ATs at level 50. Both powers unenhanced. All data pulled from City of Data. Powers chosen because they are shared by both.

 

So the pet does half the damage, but there are THREE of them, so 1.5x the damage.

Clearly the problem with them is not the basic output, but the level difference. So, hopefully that gets addressed in an upcoming patch.

[Rudra]

Also note that MM pets are all equal in level to the MM on incarnate content. So if you are a level 50+3 MM doing incarnate content, your tier 1 pets are level 48+5, tier 2 pets are level 49+4, and tier 3 pet is 50+3. I don't know about Hard Mode content though as I haven't done any.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to capitalize "Mode".

[Rudra]

Apologies. I used the wrong Burst. Updated numbers as follows:

 

Blaster: Assault Rifle: Burst:

1.05 accuracy, 4.0 s recharge, 5.2 END, 90' range.

16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.0% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

31.9883 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.61s (100% chance) after 0.3s (target = player)

[MagExpr]% Damage (All) Strength (self only) for [DurExpr]

          Duration Expression: power.base>activatetime + 7.5 Magnitude Expression: 0.066 * power.base>activatetime / power.base>areafactor

 

MM: Merceneries: Tier 1 pet Quick Burst:

1.05 accuracy, 3.0 s recharge, 4.368 END, 80' range.

-3.75% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 5s

[MagExpr] points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

         Magnitude Expression: 5.644 * (0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_Burst) + 0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_M30) + 0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_Slug) + 1)

if target.mode?(kFocusFire_Burst) || target.mode?(kFocusFire_M30) || target.mode?(kFocusFire_Slug)

-3.75% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 5s

5.6444 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

 

So for the pets to be doing equal damage as the Blaster using their Quick Burst, each one would need to do 4.2229 damage ([16.8916 * 3] / 4= 12.6687 damage / 3 pets = 4.2229 damage per pet)) with their 3 second recharge to the Blaster's 4 second recharge. So the 3 pets combined are doing 1.337x as much damage as the Blaster.

 

(Edit: If you prefer simpler math: Blaster does 16.8916 every 4 seconds. So 50.6748 damage every 12 seconds. Mercenary tier 1 pets do 5.6444 damage every 3 seconds. So 22.5776 every 12 seconds each. For a total of 67.7328 damage every 12 seconds combined.)

 

Both ATs still at level 50. Both powers still unenhanced. All data still pulled from City of Data, except this time I am referencing the pet power instead of the MM power. My apologies.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Rudra

[plainguy]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:09 PM, Rudra said:

Apologies. I used the wrong Burst. Updated numbers as follows:

 

Blaster: Assault Rifle: Burst:

1.05 accuracy, 4.0 s recharge, 5.2 END, 90' range.

16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.0% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

31.9883 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.61s (100% chance) after 0.3s (target = player)

[MagExpr]% Damage (All) Strength (self only) for [DurExpr]

          Duration Expression: power.base>activatetime + 7.5 Magnitude Expression: 0.066 * power.base>activatetime / power.base>areafactor

 

MM: Merceneries: Tier 1 pet Quick Burst:

1.05 accuracy, 3.0 s recharge, 4.368 END, 80' range.

-3.75% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 5s

[MagExpr] points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

         Magnitude Expression: 5.644 * (0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_Burst) + 0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_M30) + 0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_Slug) + 1)

if target.mode?(kFocusFire_Burst) || target.mode?(kFocusFire_M30) || target.mode?(kFocusFire_Slug)

-3.75% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 5s

5.6444 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

 

So for the pets to be doing equal damage as the Blaster using their Quick Burst, each one would need to do 4.2229 damage ([16.8916 * 3] / 4= 12.6687 damage / 3 pets = 4.2229 damage per pet)) with their 3 second recharge to the Blaster's 4 second recharge. So the 3 pets combined are doing 1.337x as much damage as the Blaster.

 

(Edit: If you prefer simpler math: Blaster does 16.8916 every 4 seconds. So 50.6748 damage every 12 seconds. Mercenary tier 1 pets do 5.6444 damage every 3 seconds. So 22.5776 every 12 seconds each. For a total of 67.7328 damage every 12 seconds combined.)

 

Both ATs still at level 50. Both powers still unenhanced. All data still pulled from City of Data, except this time I am referencing the pet power instead of the MM power. My apologies.

I get what you are saying.

They are 48 not 50 in all content other than incarnate. But even lowering to 48 the DPS drops by fractions in city of data,. So I won't squabble over fractions.
But as I said there are other factors. There is a to hit factor.. ETC..

Simply mentioned you need all 3 pets alive to do this DPS..  
As I further mentioned add in more game play scenarios. 
Against a minion I am sure 3 Tier 1 pets can take them out without any pet loss. 

As I already did this test and posted data in another thread using Robots vs AR. the Tier 1 pets were not doing well against Boss demons in P.I. 

If you are trying to imply that 3 tier 1 pets can out dps a 50 blaster I will say no. 

I "MIGHT" go to test and see if I can make a 50 Merc and Blaster and just record dps damage against target dummy in Rikti zone as that is the best you can do. Fighting against NPC mobs, depending on the mob they (the pets) will get destroyed.  

 

[plainguy]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:09 PM, Rudra said:

Apologies. I used the wrong Burst. Updated numbers as follows:

 

Blaster: Assault Rifle: Burst:

1.05 accuracy, 4.0 s recharge, 5.2 END, 90' range.

16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

-7.0% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 8s

31.9883 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.61s (100% chance) after 0.3s (target = player)

[MagExpr]% Damage (All) Strength (self only) for [DurExpr]

          Duration Expression: power.base>activatetime + 7.5 Magnitude Expression: 0.066 * power.base>activatetime / power.base>areafactor

 

MM: Merceneries: Tier 1 pet Quick Burst:

1.05 accuracy, 3.0 s recharge, 4.368 END, 80' range.

-3.75% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 5s

[MagExpr] points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

         Magnitude Expression: 5.644 * (0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_Burst) + 0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_M30) + 0.033 * target.mode?(kFocusFire_Slug) + 1)

if target.mode?(kFocusFire_Burst) || target.mode?(kFocusFire_M30) || target.mode?(kFocusFire_Slug)

-3.75% Base Defense (all affected targets) for 5s

5.6444 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

 

So for the pets to be doing equal damage as the Blaster using their Quick Burst, each one would need to do 4.2229 damage ([16.8916 * 3] / 4= 12.6687 damage / 3 pets = 4.2229 damage per pet)) with their 3 second recharge to the Blaster's 4 second recharge. So the 3 pets combined are doing 1.337x as much damage as the Blaster.

 

(Edit: If you prefer simpler math: Blaster does 16.8916 every 4 seconds. So 50.6748 damage every 12 seconds. Mercenary tier 1 pets do 5.6444 damage every 3 seconds. So 22.5776 every 12 seconds each. For a total of 67.7328 damage every 12 seconds combined.)

 

Both ATs still at level 50. Both powers still unenhanced. All data still pulled from City of Data, except this time I am referencing the pet power instead of the MM power. My apologies.

 

PLAYER
16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

.9 / .3  = 3
16.89 every .3 seconds for .9 seconds = 16.89 x 3 = 50.67

 

PETS ( PER PET )

5.6444 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

.7 / .3 = 2

5.6 every .3 seconds for .7 seconds = 5.6 x 2 = 11.2 

3 Pets 

3 x 11.2 = 33.6

 

I am sure you will show me where my math might be wrong.
Mind you if make the pets level 48 its even less damage.