Damage Meter

[trogenion]

I vote hard no. This is a game meant to be played. Not an epeen measuring contest.

[Oubliette_Red]

Damage meters in CoH are about as necessary as the Holy Trinity.

[DSorrow]

Wouldn't mind having one, but frankly it's not something I'd spend any development time on unless there was pretty much nothing else to work on. Generally DPS is a pretty worthless metric in CoX due to the abundance and sheer power of buffs/debuffs (adding anything with strong -Regen/-Res or +Dmg to a team in most cases generates more team damage than adding a strong DPSer) and the fact that basically whatever DPS your team can produce is enough to complete anything (are there even any actual DPS checks that can't be circumvented with debuffs/temp powers?).

 

Besides, there's always the Rikti Pylon test you can use if you really want to know your DPS.

[Gulbasaur]

I don't object to them on principle; in some games they can really be useful. The trouble it, City of Heroes has a much higher focus on crowd control, team dynamics and buffs/debuffs than many games.

 

If a defender fires off Fulcrum Shift, is the DPS theirs? If you drop -regen, -res and -def on an AV, is the extra DPS yours? Without you on the team, your team DPS would be much lower so shouldn't you get credit?

 

If I flip out of Nova into Dwarf form, my DPS will drop by about half, but I'll also stop the brute from dying by taking aggro off her while she recovers so she can carry on punching things. How do you measure that? An off-tank can prevent a wipe, thus keeping the team's DPS higher than if they were all defeated.

 

DPS meters only measure DPS. If you're not a pure DPS character, it's basically irrelevant.

[Black Zot]

No, no, nononononononononoNO.

 

DPS meters are good for one thing and one thing only, and that is wrecking game communities.  Number parsers breed bullying and elitism.  We've already got people in the forums and game chat dumping on people for playing suboptimal powerset combos.  This would simultaneously multiply their numbers and give them a weapon.

 

We just got this game back, and you want to turn it into another Asshole Central?

[Xeres]

While I did like the damage meter in WoW, I am not fond of the idea of implementing one in CoH.  Maybe a World of Logs site I could go for but that would be about it.

[Primantis]

I don't object to them on principle; in some games they can really be useful. The trouble it, City of Heroes has a much higher focus on crowd control, team dynamics and buffs/debuffs than many games.

 

If a defender fires off Fulcrum Shift, is the DPS theirs? If you drop -regen, -res and -def on an AV, is the extra DPS yours? Without you on the team, your team DPS would be much lower so shouldn't you get credit?

 

If I flip out of Nova into Dwarf form, my DPS will drop by about half, but I'll also stop the brute from dying by taking aggro off her while she recovers so she can carry on punching things. How do you measure that? An off-tank can prevent a wipe, thus keeping the team's DPS higher than if they were all defeated.

 

DPS meters only measure DPS. If you're not a pure DPS character, it's basically irrelevant.

 

 

That's basically my thoughts as well. I think there's way too much crap for a DPS meter to keep track of in this game, making them unreliable and too situational.

 

Not to mention the sheer amount of AoE and Pet damage going on. Which is going to both skew results and cause inaccurate reports.

 

The only situation I can think of where they'd be truly useful is 1vs1 against a Rikti Pylon or something. Teams are far too chaotic and situational.

 

 

Regardless, DPS Meters is one thing I can certainly live without in this game.

[BlueDragoon]

Yes to DPS meters.

 

And other meters like healing and such. I really enjoy being able to gauge my numbers to my friends and see how well I'm doing, ways I could improve rotations and things like that.

 

The people in this topic against it are just kneejerking, DPS meters are fine and work in other games and even improve my enjoyment of those games. The argument that "if I'm buffing or debuffing, or using mez" and being worried you won't get credit is silly. In other games like that people know the person is playing buff/debuff sets so they aren't expected to dish out damage numbers.

 

But other times I have been in teams where for example, there's three DPS dealers. We all made a pact to team up and especially if the content is challenging, we all have to step up. Sometimes, me and another guy have done like.. 90% of the damage, and the other guy was doing 10% and pretty much autoattacking. Well that's not okay in my opinion. It took WAY longer because of this guy and it wasn't fair on us who wanted to try challenging content and get it done without frustration.

 

And the other argument for "banning" DPS meters because some people use them to be a bad person is equally absurd. BAN CARS! Some people misuse them. BAN ANYTHING USEFUL THAT MAY BE USED IN A BAD WAY BY A BAD MINORITY, PANIC PANIC!

[_NOPE_]

Yes to DPS meters.

 

And other meters like healing and such. I really enjoy being able to gauge my numbers to my friends and see how well I'm doing, ways I could improve rotations and things like that.

 

The people in this topic against it are just kneejerking, DPS meters are fine and work in other games and even improve my enjoyment of those games. The argument that "if I'm buffing or debuffing, or using mez" and being worried you won't get credit is silly. In other games like that people know the person is playing buff/debuff sets so they aren't expected to dish out damage numbers.

 

But other times I have been in teams where for example, there's three DPS dealers. We all made a pact to team up and especially if the content is challenging, we all have to step up. Sometimes, me and another guy have done like.. 90% of the damage, and the other guy was doing 10% and pretty much autoattacking. Well that's not okay in my opinion. It took WAY longer because of this guy and it wasn't fair on us who wanted to try challenging content and get it done without frustration.

 

And the other argument for "banning" DPS meters because some people use them to be a bad person is equally absurd. BAN CARS! Some people misuse them. BAN ANYTHING USEFUL THAT MAY BE USED IN A BAD WAY BY A BAD MINORITY, PANIC PANIC!

 

/JRanger

[BlueDragoon]

Yes to DPS meters.

 

And other meters like healing and such. I really enjoy being able to gauge my numbers to my friends and see how well I'm doing, ways I could improve rotations and things like that.

 

The people in this topic against it are just kneejerking, DPS meters are fine and work in other games and even improve my enjoyment of those games. The argument that "if I'm buffing or debuffing, or using mez" and being worried you won't get credit is silly. In other games like that people know the person is playing buff/debuff sets so they aren't expected to dish out damage numbers.

 

But other times I have been in teams where for example, there's three DPS dealers. We all made a pact to team up and especially if the content is challenging, we all have to step up. Sometimes, me and another guy have done like.. 90% of the damage, and the other guy was doing 10% and pretty much autoattacking. Well that's not okay in my opinion. It took WAY longer because of this guy and it wasn't fair on us who wanted to try challenging content and get it done without frustration.

 

And the other argument for "banning" DPS meters because some people use them to be a bad person is equally absurd. BAN CARS! Some people misuse them. BAN ANYTHING USEFUL THAT MAY BE USED IN A BAD WAY BY A BAD MINORITY, PANIC PANIC!

 

/JRanger

 

I see your /JRanger and I /JRanger you right back. Good day

[_NOPE_]

[Primantis]

Yes to DPS meters.

 

And other meters like healing and such. I really enjoy being able to gauge my numbers to my friends and see how well I'm doing, ways I could improve rotations and things like that.

 

The people in this topic against it are just kneejerking, DPS meters are fine and work in other games and even improve my enjoyment of those games. The argument that "if I'm buffing or debuffing, or using mez" and being worried you won't get credit is silly. In other games like that people know the person is playing buff/debuff sets so they aren't expected to dish out damage numbers.

 

But other times I have been in teams where for example, there's three DPS dealers. We all made a pact to team up and especially if the content is challenging, we all have to step up. Sometimes, me and another guy have done like.. 90% of the damage, and the other guy was doing 10% and pretty much autoattacking. Well that's not okay in my opinion. It took WAY longer because of this guy and it wasn't fair on us who wanted to try challenging content and get it done without frustration.

 

 

You pretty much just countered your own argument in the bolded part of the quote.

 

"People are Kneejerking about DPS meters"

"This 3rd guy sucked and only did 10% our DPS, and that's no good *insert sonic meme*"

 

If you had a DPS meter what would you have done at that point? Either trolled or kicked I'm guessing

 

 

You are right about support though. DPS meters are usually just for shits and giggles for healers, tanks etc. Although CoH works differently. Heal meters would be stupid because rocking the aura is not efficient at all. buffs/debuffs are way more potent. An APM counter would be better for support than a heal meter, and even then its blind.

[BlueDragoon]

Yes to DPS meters.

 

And other meters like healing and such. I really enjoy being able to gauge my numbers to my friends and see how well I'm doing, ways I could improve rotations and things like that.

 

The people in this topic against it are just kneejerking, DPS meters are fine and work in other games and even improve my enjoyment of those games. The argument that "if I'm buffing or debuffing, or using mez" and being worried you won't get credit is silly. In other games like that people know the person is playing buff/debuff sets so they aren't expected to dish out damage numbers.

 

But other times I have been in teams where for example, there's three DPS dealers. We all made a pact to team up and especially if the content is challenging, we all have to step up. Sometimes, me and another guy have done like.. 90% of the damage, and the other guy was doing 10% and pretty much autoattacking. Well that's not okay in my opinion. It took WAY longer because of this guy and it wasn't fair on us who wanted to try challenging content and get it done without frustration.

 

 

You pretty much just countered your own argument in the bolded part of the quote.

 

"People are Kneejerking about DPS meters"

"This 3rd guy sucked and only did 10% our DPS, and that's no good *insert sonic meme*"

 

If you had a DPS meter what would you have done at that point? Either trolled or kicked I'm guessing

 

 

You are right about support though. DPS meters are usually just for shits and giggles for healers, tanks etc. Although CoH works differently. Heal meters would be stupid because rocking the aura is not efficient at all. buffs/debuffs are way more potent. An APM counter would be better for support than a heal meter, and even then its blind.

 

No, it's a different in our ethics. Imagine this:

 

You're grouping up to do hard content and advertise your team, you ask for good damage dealers (again, this doesn't mean you have to be the EPITOME of damage, just that you are doing a reasonable amount of damage and feel somewhat confident). You've put it out there what is expected. Two guys join and one does fine, the other is slacking in the extreme and isn't doing even an acceptable level of damage.

 

In this case, you are fine to struggle on and pick up the weight of this person who knowingly joined a tough content team whilst never intending to do their bit. It is fine by you if this extends the content by an hour or longer.

 

For me, I would either kick that person or leave. I didn't have enough time on that night to sludge on whilst getting nowhere. Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

No, we just have a difference in mentality.

[_NOPE_]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

[BlueDragoon]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

So, you outright judge others and belittle them, because some people happen to enjoy gaming in a serious way or as a dedicated hobby, rather than your lackadaisical and carefree attitude towards the game? I don't understand how you can take this stance. Don't you see your hypocrisy? You criticize me for not "being a good sport" presumably and grouping with "casual players" (I don't like that term as I have no stigma towards casual players, but regardless) but then you say it's outright wrong to play in a manner where someone might care about efficiency.

[PaxArcana]

The argument that "if I'm buffing or debuffing, or using mez" and being worried you won't get credit is silly. In other games like that people know the person is playing buff/debuff sets so they aren't expected to dish out damage numbers.

... no, they won't.

 

Back when NCSoft was still running the show, I actually had people in-game complain that my Robotics/FF mastermind "wasn't doing enough", because the little graphic avatar of my character was usually just standing there "watching".

 

Even though I (through my pets) was doing about 55% to 60% of all the team's damage, and a good 30% of all the mitigation, on the entire team.  Even though I was taking the effort and time to remain aware of the situation beyond just the current spawn, and several times headed off adds before they could cause problems for the group.

 

Noope; no actual attack animations from my (very toggle-heavy) Mastermind, meant I wasn't contributing.

 

And no DPS meter would ever have proven otherwise.  Remember, "toggle heavy".  Also remember, "Robotics/Forcefield"  I and my Protector Bots were bubbling everyone.  I was running AoE defense toggles.  I was also running all three toggles from Leadership (so some of "their" DPS was actually MY conribution).

 

But, again: no bright flashy attack animations.  So they thought I was leeching.

 

...

 

Real life examples trump suppositional fantasies like yours.

[Primantis]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

 

Well the issue is what they find fun, we may find elitest. Tools they require to have that fun might be used in an elitest fashion that many CoH player's would rather not see. So it's a catch-20.

 

Even if I avoided the teams; just seeing "ITF Run, 1k DPS required" would eat away at me, because that's not what CoH has ever really been about.. Well not to *me* at least. But I'm not going to tell other people how to enjoy the game.

 

 

Although there are other ways to push yourself and sharpen your skills, none of which require DPS meters etc. Try timing Taskforce runs and aim to get quicker each time. Once you stagnant try bumping up the difficulty and see if you can maintain said times.

 

You could also time kills on Rikti Pylons. Thats a pretty good way to get a DPS reading for ST damage.

[_NOPE_]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

So, you outright judge others and belittle them, because some people happen to enjoy gaming in a serious way or as a dedicated hobby, rather than your lackadaisical and carefree attitude towards the game? I don't understand how you can take this stance. Don't you see your hypocrisy? You criticize me for not "being a good sport" presumably and grouping with "casual players" (I don't like that term as I have no stigma towards casual players, but regardless) but then you say it's outright wrong to play in a manner where someone might care about efficiency.

 

Nope! What I'm saying is that you can can choose to play however you want, but if you kick people because they aren't playing the way that YOU want them to play... then you're being the jerk, and you're wrong. That is, unless, you've EXPLICITLY stated in your /tell before the Invite the parameters of your playstyle.

 

If you SPECIFICALLY tell them "you need to be providing X amount of DPS to play on my team, or you'll be kicked", and they don't do that? Sure, social contract broken. But if you just invite people or join teams and EXPECT them to play "your way" without telling them ahead of time, then get upset when they don't? That's on you.

[Primantis]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

So, you outright judge others and belittle them, because some people happen to enjoy gaming in a serious way or as a dedicated hobby, rather than your lackadaisical and carefree attitude towards the game? I don't understand how you can take this stance. Don't you see your hypocrisy? You criticize me for not "being a good sport" presumably and grouping with "casual players" (I don't like that term as I have no stigma towards casual players, but regardless) but then you say it's outright wrong to play in a manner where someone might care about efficiency.

 

Nope! What I'm saying is that you can can choose to play however you want, but if you kick people because they aren't playing the way that YOU want them to play... then you're being the jerk, and you're wrong. That is, unless, you've EXPLICITLY stated in your /tell before the Invite the parameters of your playstyle.

 

If you SPECIFICALLY tell them "you need to be providing X amount of DPS to play on my team, or you'll be kicked", and they don't do that? Sure, social contract broken. But if you just invite people or join teams and EXPECT them to play "your way" without telling them ahead of time, then get upset when they don't? That's on you.

 

 

To be fair, Dragoon did mention they specifically asked for "Good Damage Dealers" in their LFM shouts. If I saw that I'd know that I'd have to be at least decent, and not spam [Jab] the whole time xD

[Healix]

I am not into stats, numbers or badges but I have lots of friends who are. There is no right or wrong way to play, just 'your' way. We actually have our game back, so let's enjoy it, whatever way that makes it fun!

 

[Transhumanish]

I agree with the hard no on this. For many of the reasons others have expressed.

 

In addition to the toxicity caused by them (and sorry, but it's a lot more than just some tiny percentage; in many MMOs the absolutely absurd levels of using DPS as a metric is widespread as hell, and causes a lot of quite toxic behavior ), damage meters seem to strongly encourage cookie-cutter builds above all else. If your build isn't this 2% most efficient build in the game, you often feel consistent pressure to just change to the "better" build, and by better they simply mean slightly higher DPS.

 

But, as has been repeatedly pointed out, these are metrics tools that, in a game like CoX, don't even accomplish very much of worth at all. The effects of buffs, debuffs, and pets, are enormous in this game. Hell, in many games they are, and the DPS meters don't accomplish jack to measure it most of the time. The support character buffing the team or debuffing the opposition doesn't have their DPS adjusted and the "DPS characters" reduced to actually account for the reality that no, as a matter of fact, 17.33% of the damage ALL of you people dealt this fight was actually from this support character's buffs, and another 12.54% was from the debuffing caused by that support character's debuffs. "Your" DPS wasn't, in reality, your actual DPS.

 

Unless your meters are actually giving you credit for all the damage increases you're causing due to the many debuffs and buffs you might be tossing and, and giving you credit for all of the damage and buffs/debuffs your pets provide, it's not even giving you anything approaching a clear picture of who is contributing what to the team anyhow. So even as merely a meter measuring DPS, unless it includes all of that, it isn't even doing the one job it's actually supposed to be doing.

 

While having some sort of measure of your own damage output is nice and all, and can serve a function, unless it is far more robust and actually accounts or all the buffs, debuffs, and pets it isn't going to do the lone task it's intended to: measuring your actual contribution of damage output. And as usual in such games, that's before taking into account control powers. A control power might not directly seem to influence DPS. But, if slowing the enemies down gives your team an extra 3.5 minutes to dish out damage than your team would have without that extra time, the control's contribution to DPS was shockingly huge. Pretty much all of the DPS output for every single character spread out over that entire 3.5 minutes of the fight is 100% because of the control powers providing your team with a more efficient action economy.

 

DPS tools measure one thing--and do so largely-incorrectly--in a game like CoX, and that's pretty much it.

 

And frankly, the utterly pernicious nature of "most efficient damage" cookie cutter builds that flood games due to damage meters in particular is my least favorite part. And you WILL see pressure regarding it. There's a reason a lot of new players are coming in and specifically asking what the "best" builds are, and that's because of the cookie-cutter builds in the countless games where damage meters (and their counterpart, healing meters) are a primary metric tool for what makes a build good.

 

So yeah, no thanks. Unless the tool is hugely robust to account for a whole lot more than raw DPS, it doesn't do what it's even intended to, and I have zero interest in seeing it even for personal measurements of damage output.

[jubakumbi]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

So, you outright judge others and belittle them, because some people happen to enjoy gaming in a serious way or as a dedicated hobby, rather than your lackadaisical and carefree attitude towards the game? I don't understand how you can take this stance. Don't you see your hypocrisy? You criticize me for not "being a good sport" presumably and grouping with "casual players" (I don't like that term as I have no stigma towards casual players, but regardless) but then you say it's outright wrong to play in a manner where someone might care about efficiency.

 

Your main example is one where you use the DPS meter tool to kick a player.

This is fundamentally at odds with the general CoH community.

 

In general, the players in this community are relaxed and enjoy a less job focused playstyle.

 

As you can see from sheer numbers here in this thread alone, the popularity of such DPS elitism is simply unwanted here in this community.

 

You call us all the names you like, from lackadaisical to carebears to filthy casuals to hypocrites.

 

The fundamental use you have for the tool, to use it to beat other players with, to shame them and kick them, is what we fight against.

Not becoming better players.

Not analyzing our own DPS.

Not learning to use powers better.

The use you propose, from your first post, is to use the tool as a weapon against other players.

 

For this community, we see that as elitist, exclusionist and just plain old mean, jerk behaviour.

 

Why should we treat people who are being jerks like anything other than jerks?

[Primantis]

I am not into stats, numbers or badges but I have lots of friends who are. There is no right or wrong way to play, just 'your' way. We actually have our game back, so let's enjoy it, whatever way that makes it fun!

 

 

I'm somewhere in between. I like to call myself a "Semi min-maxer". I like to make my characters pretty strong within their context, but I am not going to roll nothing but FoTM builds.

 

 

Heck I usually roll tons of Offenders, as I find it a lot of fun to push them towards soloing x8 maps.

 

So ya, whatever floats a person's boat. The thing is DPS meters corrupt the general public, there's undeniable proof of that. (Heck there's 2-3 testimonies about it happening to people on this forum post alone) If they didn't corrupt I'd have zero problems with it.

[_NOPE_]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

So, you outright judge others and belittle them, because some people happen to enjoy gaming in a serious way or as a dedicated hobby, rather than your lackadaisical and carefree attitude towards the game? I don't understand how you can take this stance. Don't you see your hypocrisy? You criticize me for not "being a good sport" presumably and grouping with "casual players" (I don't like that term as I have no stigma towards casual players, but regardless) but then you say it's outright wrong to play in a manner where someone might care about efficiency.

 

Your main example is one where you use the DPS meter tool to kick a player.

This is fundamentally at odds with the general CoH community.

 

In general, the players in this community are relaxed and enjoy a less job focused playstyle.

 

As you can see from sheer numbers here in this thread alone, the popularity of such DPS elitism is ismply unwanted here in this community.

 

You call us all the names you like, from lackadaisical to carebears to filthy casuals to hypocrites.

 

The fundamental use you have for the tool, to use it to beat other players with, to shame them and kick them, is what we fight against.

Not becoming better players.

Not analyzing our own DPS.

Not learning to use powers better.

The use you propose, from your first post, is to use the tool as a weapon against other players.

 

For this community, we see that as elitist, exclusionist and just plain old mean, jerk behaviour.

 

Why should we treat people who are being jerks like anything other than jerks?

+1 Inf

[BlueDragoon]

Am I really wrong for that? Is that bad?

 

Yes, you are. Because pretendy fun time games.

 

So, you outright judge others and belittle them, because some people happen to enjoy gaming in a serious way or as a dedicated hobby, rather than your lackadaisical and carefree attitude towards the game? I don't understand how you can take this stance. Don't you see your hypocrisy? You criticize me for not "being a good sport" presumably and grouping with "casual players" (I don't like that term as I have no stigma towards casual players, but regardless) but then you say it's outright wrong to play in a manner where someone might care about efficiency.

 

Your main example is one where you use the DPS meter tool to kick a player.

This is fundamentally at odds with the general CoH community.

 

In general, the players in this community are relaxed and enjoy a less job focused playstyle.

 

As you can see from sheer numbers here in this thread alone, the popularity of such DPS elitism is simply unwanted here in this community.

 

You call us all the names you like, from lackadaisical to carebears to filthy casuals to hypocrites.

 

The fundamental use you have for the tool, to use it to beat other players with, to shame them and kick them, is what we fight against.

Not becoming better players.

Not analyzing our own DPS.

Not learning to use powers better.

The use you propose, from your first post, is to use the tool as a weapon against other players.

 

For this community, we see that as elitist, exclusionist and just plain old mean, jerk behaviour.

 

Why should we treat people who are being jerks like anything other than jerks?

 

So when you make a group, and explicitly state you're looking for competent players to join you for some challenging content, and someone joins who has no intention of trying their best, the people who made an honest group and appealed for other likeminded players to join them, are now jerks, bad people etc, and all the other insults you have nastily conjured.

 

I showed my opinion in this thread. And I haven't been shown any consideration honestly. People were trollish, antagonistic and even just calling me a bad person.

 

AT NO POINT. Did I call someone a "carebear" or some other belittling word. I described the PhiloticKnights attitude to the game as lackadaisical, as in carefree. This wasn't an insult, it was a true description of his attitude to grouping with others and the game in general where he has no real preference or restrictions (well actually, he does - no hardcore audience please). The irony is this is less tolerant than my approach to the game, which is let others do as they wish, rather than forcing people together.