The Pure Speedster?

[Ultimo]

So, my project of creating characters based on the JLA goes on.  Now, I'm working on making a character representing the Flash... but I'm finding it kind of daunting.

 

Initially, I made him a Scrapper, Street Justice (for the multiple strike attacks, since they look faster than other similar attacks) and Super Reflexes, with the Super Speed pool.  I considered making him a Tanker, since it seems to me the job of the speedster on many teams is to draw the fire of the enemy and avoid getting hit... but it didn't seem quite... right.

 

Anyway, the problem I've been having is that there seems not to be any really mobile power sets.  Even Super Speed doesn't have any powers or effects that you can use WHILE moving.  Even if I fight with Super Speed toggled on, it suppresses the speed boost, so he no longer runs fast.

 

My question is, how would you design a pure speedster, like the Flash or Quicksilver?

 

As an aside, perhaps they could do something to revamp the Super Speed set?  Perhaps swap out something for a toggle power that causes damage in an arc in front of the character, or perhaps in a wake around him, relative to how fast he's moving?  Some kind of mobile attack.

[MonteCarla]

I made a speedster like this once using Energy Melee on a Scrapper (but any punchy set works). I went with Electric Armor, but Super Reflexes works just as well.

 

My goal was to increase my run speed as much as possible without superspeed for combat.

 

- SR has Quickness to give you a boost, so 2 or 3 Run Speed IO's in that.

- 2 or 3 Run Speed IO's in Swift and Sprint

- Gift of the Ancients +Run Speed in each Defence power, 5 of them!

- Winter's Gift in Superspeed for +9% run speed and some slow resistance.

- Synapse Shock unique IO that gives +15% run speed (and maybe two more of that set for some extra speed and slow resistance)

- Base all other slotting on +Run Speed bonuses

Use this page to guide your slotting:

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Category:Sets_that_improve_Run_Speed

 

There's a new RunSpeed I/O that gives you some unsupressed speed bonus: Thrust: Running Speed, and Hypersonic in the Flight set gives a +9% bonus now too.

 

I achieved 73mph without superspeed turned on (which puts me at 120mph cap), and had a lot of fun jousting enemies.

 

 

And Combat Teleport with the right binds could be fun on top of this.

Edited March 8, 2023 by MonteCarla

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Anyway, the problem I've been having is that there seems not to be any really mobile power sets.  Even Super Speed doesn't have any powers or effects that you can use WHILE moving.  Even if I fight with Super Speed toggled on, it suppresses the speed boost, so he no longer runs fast.

 

The bolded part is a feature, not a bug. You can opt to slot the unique from the Thrust set, this will keep some of the Speed.

 

I think if you want the feel of "fast-moving melee" you need to leverage power pools that offer you the ability to teleport to targets. I have at least one character that uses Super Speed as a travel power, but also has Combat Teleport.  She isn't imagined as a "speedster" per se, but she certainly moves around maps and combat zones like one. If the Experimentation pool is used, Speed of Sound offers the ability to Jaunt.

 

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

As an aside, perhaps they could do something to revamp the Super Speed set?  Perhaps swap out something for a toggle power that causes damage in an arc in front of the character, or perhaps in a wake around him, relative to how fast he's moving?  Some kind of mobile attack.

 

I don't think it makes balance sense to ask for passive damage that isn't part of an aura, or damaging attacks as part of movement pool power. FWIW look at the knockdown when Takeoff is used as part of Mighty Leap... no damage, and the "attack" has a timer.

 

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

My question is, how would you design a pure speedster, like the Flash or Quicksilver?

 

As mentioned by @MonteCarla, I'd plan on trying to maximize running speed... because not being among the first players to a mission door would break the concept for me, YMMV. As I wrote above, I'd want Combat Teleport (or use Jaunt) to "move faster than the human eye" during combat.

 

As far as AT? I'd certainly opt for a non-weapon melee of some sort, but I'd be open to any set that offers animations/powers that could be rationalized. Often comic book speedsters have "electrical side effects", but I wouldn't restrict myself to those. The "arm waving" animation of Wall of Force's cone attack sort of looks like something a speedster might pull off, but it's a third-power pick in the Force of Will pool, so that works against my recommendations above (slots will be tight, and can't take both Force of Will and Experimentation pools). The Blaster secondary Martial Combat has a fun attacks, I just don't know how committed I could be about minimizing a primary choice to stick with melee, cones and PBAoE. [I think a Blaster does a better job mimicking the fragility of comic-book speedsters... I guess Regeneration can do the same, or use Willpower if a player wants the character to be MOAR BETTER, YMMV]

 

EDIT: I'll add another "easy" Power Pool option for consideration. The Concealment pool's Infiltration will also add to Run/Jump speed and control... and when combined with something like a +Stealth piece in a travel power will render a character invisible (while not moving, assuming no Aura) to all enemies except for the "super perception" class mobs. This can mimic a Speedster's moving so fast as to not be noticed. Infiltraion is a single power pick, and the pool itself offers several other powers that can mule defense Enhancement pieces.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by tidge

[PLVRIZR]

Not available on the melee archetypes, but the speed attained from Kinetics (Siphon Speed) doesn't suppress, in combat.

[Nyghtmaire]

Seconding @tidge’s suggestion regarding Speed of Sound/Jaunt. Mix in some TP macros or binds for using Jaunt (along with the excellent passive run speed slotting suggestions from @MonteCarla) should do the trick. Add in KD (via power selection or judicious proccing) would also add to “surprise” of fighting a speedster. 

[Ultimo]

I did consider suggesting an attack in Super Speed similar to the Shield Charge attack...  It blitzes in at high speed and creates a powerful shockwave at the destination.  Seems to be in character for the set, what do you think?

 

As for the other suggestions, I'll work towards that.  Unfortunately, it means he won't actually play like an actual speedster for some time.  Have to make do, I suppose.

[biostem]

15 hours ago, Ultimo said:

My question is, how would you design a pure speedster, like the Flash or Quicksilver?

I'd go with an electrical blast/martial combat blaster.  Focus on the secondary, and treat the electric blasts as you discharging built up static electricity.  The big powers would be reach for the limit, burst of speed, reaction time, and inner will.  I'd even dip into something like the fighting pool or maybe experimentation for speed of sound, and maybe adrenal booster if you can fit it.  You could also delve into the leaping pool for extra immobilization protection, knockback protection, hold protection, and spring attack would also be neat.

[EmperorSteele]

I have an Elec/SR Stalker for this sorta concept. The baddies never see you coming, you can use Lightning Rod to instantly pop into a group of foes, and... well, that's about it. I know that a long wind-up for Assasin Strike doesn't exactly scream "speed", but I just pretend that time is in slo-mo like when Quicksilver is doing his thing in the X-Men movies.

 

He's only level 20-or-30-something, but pretty fun, for the most part!

[biostem]

From an effectiveness standpoint, I wonder if a rad/martial blaster may work better.

[Redletter]

On 3/8/2023 at 1:13 AM, Ultimo said:

So, my project of creating characters based on the JLA goes on.  Now, I'm working on making a character representing the Flash... but I'm finding it kind of daunting.

 

Initially, I made him a Scrapper, Street Justice (for the multiple strike attacks, since they look faster than other similar attacks) and Super Reflexes, with the Super Speed pool.  I considered making him a Tanker, since it seems to me the job of the speedster on many teams is to draw the fire of the enemy and avoid getting hit... but it didn't seem quite... right.

 

Anyway, the problem I've been having is that there seems not to be any really mobile power sets.  Even Super Speed doesn't have any powers or effects that you can use WHILE moving.  Even if I fight with Super Speed toggled on, it suppresses the speed boost, so he no longer runs fast.

 

My question is, how would you design a pure speedster, like the Flash or Quicksilver?

 

As an aside, perhaps they could do something to revamp the Super Speed set?  Perhaps swap out something for a toggle power that causes damage in an arc in front of the character, or perhaps in a wake around him, relative to how fast he's moving?  Some kind of mobile attack.

So, I had a similar struggle some time ago. I came up with a few solutions.

Option A: Speedster as Melee

 

A Melee AT "speedster" is a tanker, or a brute. Brute's "rage" mechanics support it (the "faster" you attack, the "more" you attack, the more damage builds up) but, tanker's numbers are hard to ignore, but scrappers exist as well and there's something to be said about being scrappy, and the idea of crits being a way to symbolize like, a single super speed hit going REALLY hard is nice. I however suggest tanker, simply due to the *BEST* speedsters on a super team are the ones who use their super speed to help the team -- tankers help a team more widely than a scrapper does typically.

 

For me, this character was a Super Reflexes/Dark toon, but I've had ideas for a Dark/EA brute as well.

 

Now, I chose Dark intitally since it was the *ONLY* at in the game with a rapid punch move, similar to flurry and Sands of Mu in Shadow Maul. Super Reflexes is *THE* super speed armor set, so, it fit naturally to choose that as well. With Dark, you put a malus on your opponent's to-hit, so it makes your defense pay out even more, you basically get to add the value of the -to hit to your defense values, and of course you can bump that up with enhancements.

Now, the thing here is that to TRULY simulate super speed, you want to be moving. Tankers are typyfied as "walls" because it's easier to hold aggro when you're not moving around. But, if you have the team and build for it, there's nothing to stop a tanker from rounding up more than one mob group and keeping their aggro, especially if you're using Taunt liberally (which can get a Perfect Zinger in it to make it a damage tool). The way I would do this is with Speed of Sound's sub ability Jaunt.

 

Speed of Sound and Super Speed are the "speedster" pools. You're going to be in Super Speed anyhow, because on top of Shadow Maul you'll be taking Flurry. You may also want to have Sands of Mu from the Pay2Win vendor, though I'm not sure if that's viable at higher levels, given it's unenhancible. Regardless, with Shadow Maul and flurry you have two "rapid punch" moves to use in your chain, Taunt makes 3, and whatever power you took at level 1 makes 4 and that's liable to keep you going until you can restart your chain (assuming you're loaded up on gamblers which you absolutely should be).

A benefit of Super Reflexes is that you can also slot Gift of the Ancients into all of its powers, which has a non-unique +Defense/Movement Speed enhancement. So, you could slot that a times as well for a substantial base movement speed buff that doesnt suppress in combat. You can move very fast, and you move even faster with your travel power, and you can occasionally move *SO* fast you instantly teleport to where you want to go. 

The Dark/EA brute is basically the same idea, but with a few differences. I like this one on *PAPER* due to how it's a lot easier to make it more visually connected - dark has a very specific tinting style and it's hard to work with unless you build around it. EA is very good, and it offers more VFX to play with to make Dark's VFX not look so spontaneous. It also has a few powers that compliment Dark's *OTHER* powers very well for if you want to broaden your concept of what and how a speedster does what they do -- for me I linked the concept of "Speed" to entropy for thematic reasons, my melee speedster isnt fast because they're fast, they're fast because they accelerate the effects of enropy around them and can syphon that for themselves (allowing me MORE tools from Dark and EA that fit the concept) but, they havent gotten out of level 9 yet so I don't know how good this may actually *PLAY*.

 

Option B: Speedster as Ranged

Now, obviously, our main man Synapse is a speedster, and he's a blaster. He shoots lightning at people. That's neat, and you can do that too -- I did and with Blaster's constant positioning, being a toon who is running around, teleporting around, diving into melee and out of melee, is as dynamic as it is potent. You could basically be running quadruple build up and going absolutely nuts with an elec/elec blaster, running around and zapping people. It's a good build, it's a good character, and it satisfies the desire for speedster play that's hard to find -- especially since you're made of paper until you're IO'd out of your mind with set bonuses that make up for your lack of personal defenses. Trust me, I've done it, it's a lot of fun.

 

However. I didn't do that first. At first, my journey to make a speedster began with unsatisfying melees and I didnt just wanna be *ANOTHER* Synapse. That led me to the *IDEA* of *SPEED* in-game. Kinetics is the fast path to fast.

 

This is Acceleron. He's my Kinetics/Sonic defender. As I said before, I think a speedster is at their best when they're helping the team in ways that a "Superman" or a "Batman". So I made a speedster who's super speed is something he can share with others. My goal with him was to *LITERALLY* speed up the game, Kinetics gives damage buffs, recharge speed buffs, refreshes stamina while Sonic gives a -res effect to help all those damage buffs go further as well as some soft CC abilities. Prior to the Sonic Blast changes, he could shave a LOT of time off a TF and for me that was like, the ultimate "get" from a speedster. He literally made things go more quickly, fights, heroes, gameplay.

That's my two parsecs. For what it's worth, SR on a tanker can reach the cap on defense with very little effort, to the point where the hard coded *MINIMUM* chance to hit (5%~) is their *ONLY* chance to hit. Which is entertaining in itself.

I do think some aspects of Super Speed as a power could use some tuneing. If instead of a jump boost it gave a *damage* boost, that would start at like, a passive 3% and then scale up as you ran (combat or no) to something like 10%? Or like, added a scaling chance to knock down based on the same measurement system for the jump boost? Something to give the sense that your SPEED is having IMPACT.

[r0adkill76]

flash in the TV show, hurls lightning, that would seem to be electric blast or something similar

[Ultimo]

14 hours ago, r0adkill76 said:

flash in the TV show, hurls lightning, that would seem to be electric blast or something similar

Ya, that's a result of the retcon into the "speed force."  I grew up with a guy who was just fast, and that was plenty... so I'm trying to stay consistent with the speedsters I grew up with.

[Rigged]

EDIT: Scratch this. It has been pointed out to me that Athletic Regulation was hugely nerfed last year, while I was away from the game.

 

I would also like to point out that a /bio sentinel (and only the sentinel) has Athletic Regulation, which, with Offensive Adaptation (from the same pool, and you will want to use it anyway), Swift and Sprint will put you at the normal (non-super speed) runspeed cap and it is insuppressible. You can in fact do a Synapse-like character with elec blast/Bio (or "blazing fast" and be Fire/Bio) and run around at top speed while in combat. Bonus: If you use the "No FX" option in /bio the only FX you will have is lightning-like tendrils over your arms. Unlike Kinetics, you don't even need to recast because Sprint is a toggle and Athletic Regulation is an Auto power.

 

The downside is that you won't be a melee, which might dampen your fun, but you could also just take Flurry for fun.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Rigged

[BazookaTwo]

No one here has mentioned Whirlwind? Wow. Totally a flash thing. Whirlwind + Oppressive Gloom equals "erry body in da club gettin dizzy" 

[tidge]

3 hours ago, BazookaTwo said:

No one here has mentioned Whirlwind? Wow. Totally a flash thing. Whirlwind + Oppressive Gloom equals "erry body in da club gettin dizzy" 

 

I 100% agree with the looks & feel of Whirlwind. I don't think I've used it in a build since the early (IO only) days of Live, as I found it... disappointing.

[Signalrunner]

Kinetic Melee/Energy Aura on a Stalker. 

 

Stalker is non-negotiable because KM's Assassin Strike is the fastest melee attack in the game, and it hits hard. Skip Hide for a more Scrapper vibe, if you must, because this combo will still hit harder than the Scrapper version because of AS.

 

Concentrated Strike feels slow you say? Good, that power is a skip on Stalkers since CS doesn't crit and Stalkers can get build up resets through their Assassin's Mark Archetype Enhancement.

 

Both sets have a speed forcey vibe to them and you can slap on Zapp and Ball Lightning from Mu Mastery for electricity.

 

The endurance discount from Energize also lets you keep running Speed of Sound/Super Speed with less strain on your blue bar.

[Hyperstrike]

The primary problem I see with using speed as a defensive mechanism is this:

HOMING BOULDERS
___________________________________________

 

In short, the way the targeting system works in-game, it's really a pass/fail thing.
So if you're in range when the to-hit check goes off, it doesn't matter if you're standing still, or run all the way to the other side of the map.  YOU ARE GETTING HIT.
Doing it at umpty-bajillion light-years per nanosecond does NOTHING to protect you.

So "jousting" is basically  you going to Vegas on a $10 budget and playing the dollar machines.

[Ultimo]

4 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The primary problem I see with using speed as a defensive mechanism is this:

HOMING BOULDERS
___________________________________________

 

In short, the way the targeting system works in-game, it's really a pass/fail thing.
So if you're in range when the to-hit check goes off, it doesn't matter if you're standing still, or run all the way to the other side of the map.  YOU ARE GETTING HIT.
Doing it at umpty-bajillion light-years per nanosecond does NOTHING to protect you.

So "jousting" is basically  you going to Vegas on a $10 budget and playing the dollar machines.

While true, presentation is half the battle.  Maybe MORE than half.

[Supertanker]

If I were making a Speedster, I'd probably go with Electric Melee for the lightning theme, the teleport from Lightning Rod, and Chain Induction is kind of like running around hitting multiple targets.

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Ultimo said:

While true, presentation is half the battle.  Maybe MORE than half.

No.  That's KNOWING.

The other half is 50% red lasers and 50% blue lasers.

[Ultimo]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:48 PM, Hyperstrike said:

No.  That's KNOWING.

The other half is 50% red lasers and 50% blue lasers.

Well, not quite 50/50%... at least 10% needs to be sharks.

[Rigged]

So this topic has inspired me to try to create a build with as much unsuppressed runspeed as possible.

 

TL;DR: 81mph perma unsuppressed runspeed. This can be increased with the Supergroup Base Runspeed buff (1hr) and Clarion Radial Destiny (75% uptime).

 

 

Screenshot is in combat.

 

Here's what I came up with. I've tested it over the weekend, and it is surprisingly fun, and effective! May I present Zippy-Zap, a time traveling speedster who can inflict entropic damage by vibrating really fast. By the way, @Ultimo, I find your project to recreate the Justice League very amusing because I have a project to recreate the Legion of Doom from the old Super-Friends cartoon as a sorority of bratty teenage supervillainesses. Zippy is an Expy of Professor Zoom, who actually isn't in the Legion of Doom, but I already made expies of Black Adam and Deadshot anyway, so why not.

 

The build is linked below. Note that for some reason, MIDS Reborn displays runspeed wrong for me, starting with a base 21mph rather than the actual 14mph, which screws the display in the editor.

 

1) Electric Armor.

I know a resist set does not scream "Super Speed", but COH does not exactly animate defense vs resist all that well, so it's not really interfering with the aesthetic so much. The main thing is that for our mitigation set, we need one of Elec Armor, Bio Armor, or Super Reflexes, because these are the sets with a Swift analogue built-in. Elec Armor has one advantage: with this many resist armors we have no problem filling them with the 2-set bonus from Aegis, which gives +7.5% runspeed. I did actually seriously consider going Super Reflexes instead, but I very much dislike clickie mez protection since I tend to forget it.

 

2) Dark Melee.

Because of Shadow Maul. One neat thing I discovered while making this character: If you color Soul Noir with pure yellow, it looks like energy melee. Note: Because I am planning to use Shadow Maul a lot, and because I am picking a resist set, I have decided to make her a Tanker, which gives higher resist caps and dramatically increases the cone radius and target cap of Shadow Maul. This isn't as contrary to a Speedster's concept as it sounds: A speedster has no special offensive power and they serve as very good distractions for enemies. It amuses me because a part of Zippy's character concept is to be constantly taunting opponents, like Spider-Man, so being a Tanker will let her do that a lot.

I also picked Soul Mastery, but that's not essential, it just does more damage than Mu Mastery (cones proc more often, and Obliteration gets an extra damage proc from -tohit) and I am planning to have incredible mobility to position the cone anyway.

 

3) Concealment pool

This gives 3 defense powers to mule LOTG and the Gift of the Ancients proc, which is not unique. I admit I tend to like this pool for characters with no defense powers in their primary/secondary sets to mule LOTG. But you know, it does give us a second travel power in the form of Infiltrate, which this build gets up to a permanent 97mph (the runspeed cap without Super Speed/Speed of Sound). This lets you jump over the occasional building without having to build up speed first. Also, it lets Zippy vibrate her teammates into invisibility, which I always found useful for helping a lowbie.

 

4) Super Speed pool

If we could get more than 4 pool powers, I would totally pick Speed of Sound instead, but we cannot. Zippy gets hasten and Super Speed. Now, Whirlwind is a very cool super speed power, but it's not very useful so I decided to skip it. We need Super Speed to get the +30% runspeed cap boost, and also so we can slot the Thrust proc, which gives an unsuppressed, enhancable runspeed bonus. I considered taking Flurry, but with 165% recharge, I am Shadow Maul'ing every 5 seconds anyway, so Flurry is kind of extraneous. Also, Flurry sucks. It does terrible damage and the secondary effect is Disorient, which means your proc options are limited to the melee sets only.

 

5) Musculature Radial Alpha.

The +runspeed boosts Sprint, Swift, Lightning Reflexes, Super Speed, and supposedly the Thrust proc. It also gives you a bit of extra END recovery and increases your END drain from your damage aura.

 

6) Ageless Core Destiny OR Clarion Radial Destiny

I didn't get Clarion, because I wanted powers that would be up 100% of the time. However, the +runspeed boost would bump your speed quite a bit for the 75% of the time it was up. The issue is that without Ageless, you will be running out of END a lot. This can be mitigated by dropping one of the Concealment powers (along with 7.5% runspeed and LOTG) to get Power Sink. Also, a tank with natural mez protection doesn't really benefit from the main power of Clarion. Fortunately, in groups I notice a lot of blasters and defenders will give me Clarion anyway.

 

Final results: Running Sprint AND Superspeed (no temp buffs), I have 81mph perma unsuppressed movespeed. Which is pretty good for a fully functional build that can tank almost all the content outside of starred TFs which I have not tried yet, with 165% global recharge before Ageless and pretty decent damage from procs. You also have 90% Smash/Lethal/Energy resist, 80% Fire/Cold resist, and 50%ish negative resist. 20% defense to everything, and 300%ish regen. Surprisingly functional for a concept build that spends around 10 slots on runspeed.

 

Tanker - Electric Armor - Dark Melee.mxd

Edited March 28, 2023 by Rigged

[MonteCarla]

81mph!?
It's not a race, but... wow, well done! 😄

[Ultimo]

Actually, I made my Speedster a Tanker as well.  When you look at these kinds of characters in the comics, they tend to be the ones getting the attention of the enemy on THEM, creating openings for the team...

 

I'm reminded of the Angel, WAAAAY back in X-Men #4, where they were assaulting Magneto's fortress.  Angel flew nearby to draw fire while the other X-Men approached and attacked.  Or the Battle between the Avengers and the Exemplars where Quicksilver was dashing around distracting all the enemies while the other Avengers took advantage of the distraction.  Spiderman is this kind of hero too, jumping around taunting bad guys while fighting them... and even Captain America is a Tanker, his colourful costume and shield intended to make HIM the focus of enemy attention while Bucky would operate more freely.

 

I know, Cap and Spidey aren't speedsters, I'm just pointing out characters sometimes fill roles you might not expect.