Single Target DPS Testing For All Primaries

[ClawsandEffect]

2 hours ago, Ston said:

 

I’ll give that a try in my next round of testing. Going to do another round with some suggestions in this thread so far.

 

Your suggestion does sound like it’d be more DPS, it just depends on how much recharge is left on Screech after using Shriek/Scream. It might mean Screech needs more recharge enhancing or I’ll need to chase more global recharge to keep the chain gapless. But interested to see if Sonic can squeeze out some more DPS! 

 

It can. I've respecced all my Sonic blast characters to run a Shriek/Scream/Screech chain. It's gapless with not a lot more effort than using Shout. Base recharge is 10 for Shout vs 12 for Screech. 

[Nitrogen]

Hello, great job!

I'm currently building a game based on City of Heroes and I was wondering if you know of a way to retrieve the damage values for the super strength power line for each level from 1 to 50?

I found the information on the City of Data V2.0 website via the following link: https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=tanker_melee.super_strength.punch&at=tanker.

If we scroll through the little slider, we have (as in the game) access to all the stats per level.

Is there a multiplier coefficient that would allow us to automatically calculate the damage for each level?

Thank you in advance for your help!

[Ston]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:58 AM, Intrinsic said:

A combat log parser would be helpful here, to show things like actual hit rates, proc rates, etc.  There's one listed in the Tools subforum, but I haven't tried it so not sure what information it shows.

 

I ran through this test again and added more data for accuracy, amount of attacks, FF procs, and -resist procs. Didn't get around to adding data for individual proc rates for each attack, but could always expand on that if needed. Gonna leave a screenshot of the new results here and also add them to the OP.

 

18 hours ago, ClawsandEffect said:

I feel like you'd get better times with Sonic using just about any power other than Shout. It's DPA is the worst out of just about any blast set power in the game. 

 

I'd use Screech there instead. It deals more damage in a shorter animation. 

 

I didn't get around to testing a different chain for Sonic Blast. But according to mids, Shout has higher DPA then Shriek and Scream since the animation reduction.

 

On 4/30/2023 at 9:12 PM, dragonhawk777 said:

Can you do a test with the Musc Total Core and show us where Elec falls with that core in the alpha slot?  I havent run a parser, but I do have a bunch of blasters and my Elec blaster doesnt seem to be that far back from my other blasters.  Granted they arent all using the same secondary but ever since the changes to Elec months ago it seems to be performing much closer to the top end primaries than your tests would indicate.

 

I used Musculature Core this time for Elec Blast. It did end up adding a decent amount of DPS! Also added Fury of the Gladiator -res to Short Circuit.

 

[Bellicose]

This is such brilliant data. Thank you so much for putting in this work. I hope you get as much out of creating this data as we get out of reading it.

I went to check you original post to compare times but it looks like you've edited it. It does look like Radiation has tumbled down to 5th. I'm not surprised. I did some theory-crafting (I used Ninja Training instead of Earth just because I would be more likely to use that set in game) and numbers-wise, it did seem like Fire should be much further ahead of Radiation. 

That being said, all of your times seem faster now. Even with Rad falling to five, I think that's 11 seconds faster than your previous time. Did something else change that I missed, or is that more a reflection of your testing process becoming more smooth with repetition?

[honoroit]

On 4/28/2023 at 12:55 PM, Ston said:

Archery was abysmal

 

wonder how theyre fixing it, heard its on the list.

[Ston]

1 hour ago, Bellicose said:

This is such brilliant data. Thank you so much for putting in this work. I hope you get as much out of creating this data as we get out of reading it.

I went to check you original post to compare times but it looks like you've edited it. It does look like Radiation has tumbled down to 5th. I'm not surprised. I did some theory-crafting (I used Ninja Training instead of Earth just because I would be more likely to use that set in game) and numbers-wise, it did seem like Fire should be much further ahead of Radiation. 

That being said, all of your times seem faster now. Even with Rad falling to five, I think that's 11 seconds faster than your previous time. Did something else change that I missed, or is that more a reflection of your testing process becoming more smooth with repetition?

 

I've been having a blast testing and recording data. Thank you for the support! 

And yeah I'll keep editing the OP as I retest powersets. I'll try to make a note of what changed so that it can be referenced later!

I think the Radiation time of 1:25 was a fluke on the first round of testing. I must've gotten very lucky with procs. I think the results are getting more & more accurate as I keep testing. I've been using HeroStats to parse combat logs to refine my testing strategy. For example, I threw out one of my Ice Blast tests that would've been the fastest time but I noticed it had 0 misses. I want to try to get each test around 95% accuracy to match what's expected in game. 

[Ashford]

Well there you go fellas, now AR/MA is the new DP/MA, and probably more insane

[atletikus]

Seems to me Arrows has one of the best Tier 9 nukes, so it performing slightly worse than Energy is as it should be. Energy once used to be considered the average blast set, but in between the power creep of newer sets and all other old sets apart from Energy being buffed, it now kind of sticks out conspicuously in need of some development TLC. Especially when you consider all the uncontrollable knockbacks it brings to team play. It is as far from meta as you can get. 

[drgantz]

Thank you for this research. 

One thing that surprises me is that someone once told me that the best blasters are Fire, Ice and  Water.  Fire and Ice are at the top, but Water is near the bottom.

[Maris]

On 6/10/2023 at 7:07 AM, drgantz said:

Thank you for this research. 

One thing that surprises me is that someone once told me that the best blasters are Fire, Ice and  Water.  Fire and Ice are at the top, but Water is near the bottom.

Water doesn't rank great on single-target testing but absolutely excels at AOE

[Ston]

On 6/10/2023 at 5:07 AM, drgantz said:

Thank you for this research. 

One thing that surprises me is that someone once told me that the best blasters are Fire, Ice and  Water.  Fire and Ice are at the top, but Water is near the bottom.

 

Yeah, what @Maris said. This list just compares ST damage.

 

Eventually Id like to do a test that compares their AoE clear speed. Might be able to get around to that soon! Water would do much better there, but Id still probably rank it average among Blaster sets since the ST DPS is pretty poor.

[BrandX]

Why Irradiate instead of X-Ray Beam with Radiation Blast?

[Ston]

8 hours ago, BrandX said:

Why Irradiate instead of X-Ray Beam with Radiation Blast?

 

FotG, mostly. It’s a fast animation and getting -40% res helps you melt any harder targets besides AVs.

 

In my “regular” rad blast builds, i do use proc’d x-ray instead of cosmic so that I’m spending less time in animations.

[tidge]

On 6/10/2023 at 8:07 AM, drgantz said:

Thank you for this research. 

One thing that surprises me is that someone once told me that the best blasters are Fire, Ice and  Water.  Fire and Ice are at the top, but Water is near the bottom.

 

On 6/11/2023 at 6:33 PM, Maris said:

Water doesn't rank great on single-target testing but absolutely excels at AOE

 

I agree with @Maris; Water Blast is crazy good for AoE damage. I'd go so far to write that putting Water Jet in a build is probably hurting total DPS against anything except single, high-HP targets (which is a small fraction of gameplay for most circumstances)... for most ATs and pimary/secondary powerset choices, I can always find a better power to take in its place... and that is certainly true for the slots I would otherwise put in Water Jet.

 

Furthermore: The Homecoming Devs recently implemented a further improvement to Water Blast in that Tidal Power isn't wasted on a miss. For me, this was a previously a relatively minor annoyance (and was the biggest reason to skip Water Jet, IMO), but after this change I find myself paying slightly more attention to Tidal Power.

[honoroit]

with regard to water jet  i couldnt disagree more.  its a double cast with tidal power thingy, and quick cast at that.

 

when you look at water you think: ok good, 4 not 5 ST attacks.

 

hmm.. nice cone base range, thats gonna be great with artillary...

 

ohhhh, crumbs and cold porridge!

 --> theres no snipe. ok... whats this double striking one do 'wa-ter jet, it says'?

 

if you git gud and dont miss (skill issue), which apparently consumes the charge without resetting the cd... or doesnt... i only know its awesome... then that sound wonderous!

 

its good as adaptation for ST. in my opinion.

 

water/ice is pretty great.

 

'Figs was frightened - an OC by honoroit, the famous, eats spooky donuts with no napkins, because he's tough. also pictured; popular marvel character NPC, thor, does blacksmithing upgrades for the players'

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by honoroit

[tidge]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:47 AM, honoroit said:

with regard to water jet  i couldnt disagree more.  its a double cast with tidal power thingy, and quick cast at that.

 

if you git gud and dont miss (skill issue), which apparently consumes the charge without resetting the cd... or doesnt... i only know its awesome... then that sound wonderous!

 

 

RNG says "Hi".  I'm a no-sell on Water Jet because it takes both a power pick and slots just to sometimes get a second cast of a single-target attack (that may or may not hit).

 

For my blasters, the take Water Blast primary breaks down as:

 

Aqua Bolt / Hydro Blast : Two single-target attacks. Pick one and slot it with the Defiant Barrage ATO, skip the other.

 

Water Burst: The first AoE, and an important one. Take it.

 

Whirlpool: an AoE Debuff, that includes -Speed. Take it, unless you are completely giving up on AoE.

 

Tidal Forces: The set's Build-up, easily delayed (or even skipped) if the secondary has a better Build-Up.

 

Dehydrate: Single target attack, self-heal, debuff. Take it.

 

Water Jet: Sometimes fast-cast single target attack. It's on the bubble as it isn't radically different than other powers... and it is the only attack that needs Tidal Power to stand out.

 

Steam Spray: A decent cone, with off-brand damage type. Take it.

 

Geyser: The AoE Nuke. Take it.

 

I suppose that if no attacks are being taken from the secondary, Water Jet could fit into an attack chain. Running through a no-gap attack chain is pretty important! Usually I'm doing something with the secondary in the course of making attacks (including blapping, which can also be single-target!). Build-wise, I'm usually trying to balance choices of enhancements to slot for set bonuses; one more single-target ranged attack on a Blaster doesn't excite me.

 

I'd feel very differently if this was a Snipe. I see what the set is doing differently (as opposed to it being a Snipe). It's just that for my taste, the specific mechanics of getting the most out of Water Jet are a lot more convoluted and conditional than Snipes, and using Tidal Power for Water Jet means I'm not using Tidal Power for another attack power. For Snipes, I can run fast or slow, I can boost damage on Snipes with passive (or active) +ToHit bonuses, and Snipes can take a greater variety of Enhancement sets. The recent fix to not auto-burn Tidal Power on a miss has improved Water Jet, but its still not teh choice for me.

 

Frankly: I'd sooner pick the other single-target ranged attack available at level 1 first and slot it before I'd take Water Jet, since then I'd have a second attack that could be cast when mezzed. I wouldn't need to rely on Tidal Power to improve its performance. As things stand, I have better used for not just the power pick that would go to Water Jet but also any slots I would dedicate to it.

 

[honoroit]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

RNG says "Hi".  I'm a no-sell on Water Jet because it takes both a power pick and slots just to sometimes get a second cast of a single-target attack (that may or may not hit).

 

For my blasters, the take Water Blast primary breaks down as:

 

Aqua Bolt / Hydro Blast : Two single-target attacks. Pick one and slot it with the Defiant Barrage ATO, skip the other.

 

Water Burst: The first AoE, and an important one. Take it.

 

Whirlpool: an AoE Debuff, that includes -Speed. Take it, unless you are completely giving up on AoE.

 

Tidal Forces: The set's Build-up, easily delayed (or even skipped) if the secondary has a better Build-Up.

 

Dehydrate: Single target attack, self-heal, debuff. Take it.

 

Water Jet: Sometimes fast-cast single target attack. It's on the bubble as it isn't radically different than other powers... and it is the only attack that needs Tidal Power to stand out.

 

Steam Spray: A decent cone, with off-brand damage type. Take it.

 

Geyser: The AoE Nuke. Take it.

 

I suppose that if no attacks are being taken from the secondary, Water Jet could fit into an attack chain. Running through a no-gap attack chain is pretty important! Usually I'm doing something with the secondary in the course of making attacks (including blapping, which can also be single-target!). Build-wise, I'm usually trying to balance choices of enhancements to slot for set bonuses; one more single-target ranged attack on a Blaster doesn't excite me.

 

I'd feel very differently if this was a Snipe. I see what the set is doing differently (as opposed to it being a Snipe). It's just that for my taste, the specific mechanics of getting the most out of Water Jet are a lot more convoluted and conditional than Snipes, and using Tidal Power for Water Jet means I'm not using Tidal Power for another attack power. For Snipes, I can run fast or slow, I can boost damage on Snipes with passive (or active) +ToHit bonuses, and Snipes can take a greater variety of Enhancement sets. The recent fix to not auto-burn Tidal Power on a miss has improved Water Jet, but its still not teh choice for me.

 

Frankly: I'd sooner pick the other single-target ranged attack available at level 1 first and slot it before I'd take Water Jet, since then I'd have a second attack that could be cast when mezzed. I wouldn't need to rely on Tidal Power to improve its performance. As things stand, I have better used for not just the power pick that would go to Water Jet but also any slots I would dedicate to it.

 

well, tidal power is the set gimmick.  

 

it builds naturally (and of course with tidal power), i havent even read to see how, but you get the circle highlights coming up when its there.

 

it would be nice to have a snipe.  ice doesnt have one, no one complains about ice.

 

water jet is a super fast cast, and doubled up, is probably comperable to a quickcast snipe'ish?

[tidge]

43 minutes ago, honoroit said:

water jet is a super fast cast, and doubled up, is probably comperable to a quickcast snipe'ish?

 

Water Jet is only "fast (immediate re-) cast" when Tidal Power is accumulated (for the first cast, and it hits). Assuming both casts of Water Jet hit, on paper this is a theoretic doubling of damage... subject to the inherent recharge of the initial cast of course. In contrast the (Blaster) Snipes I am most familiar with:

• Are a much earlier attack choice in the Primary
• Can get a constant +6% damage increase (for Fast) by having the Kismet +6% ToHit piece active
• Are more reliable %proc damage (usually there is good choice of some enhancement set that includes a %damage piece) power

For me, I always feel like I am getting more (and steadier) damage output from a Snipe. Part of what turned me off from Water Jet (I tried it, for a good while!) was that it felt like "I waited until level 18 for this?" Even with slotting, I was unimpressed. As I was growing disenchanted with Water Jet, I started paying close attention to other Water Blast characters on PUGs, looking for "ENHANCED WATER JET!" and even those characters who had the power (I love the animation!) I wasn't seeing it that often... and it was making much less of a splash (pun intended) than the AoEs.

 

As I wrote, Water Jet "feels" like it is reasonably balanced if:

• Tidal Power is always accumulated when casted
• BOTH Water Jet attacks hit

Those conditions are almost enough a deal breaker by themselves (hi RNG!), but it doesn't offer enough synergy with the rest of the set for me, in terms of DoT or AoE.

[Hjarki]

On 5/1/2023 at 12:57 PM, Shred Monkey said:

My number one take away is that I need to take another look at heavy mallet.

It's actually not a particularly good attack in terms of dpa (about 80). For comparison, Smite and Taser are both about 92 dpa and Charged Brawl is 103 dpa. It's also interesting to note that, technically, a rotation like HM/Blaze/Blazing Bolt requires +333% recharge (about 60% recharge above perma-Hasten). However, arcanatime seems insufficient to properly model how long rotations actually take - in-game rotations tend to take much longer than theoretical calculations would predict.

 

Also, the lack of Seismic Smash in those rotations raises a concern. Every single one of them would be better if SS was used on recharge - it's not just considerably higher dpa than Heavy Mallet but most of the other attacks on that list. While the long recharge precludes using it in a tight 3-move rotation, a rotation of Blaze/Blazing Bolt/Heavy Mallet/Blaze/Blazing Bolt/Seismic Smash is stronger than the Heavy Mallet-only rotation listed - especially when you consider the Unbreakable Constraint proc.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure how useful melee-inclusive single target rotations really are. Yes, they're nice against pylons. But in actual play, you can't depend on 100% melee - especially as the difficulty slider moves up. Blasters simply don't have the kind of defenses that allow them to safely close with many potential foes so you need a fully ranged rotation to fall back on.

 

 

[Hjarki]

On 7/18/2023 at 12:34 PM, tidge said:

 

Water Jet is only "fast (immediate re-) cast" when Tidal Power is accumulated (for the first cast, and it hits).

The 'fast cast' Water Jet is 103 dpa. Which is... decent. Blaze is 140 dpa. Bitter Ice Blast/Freeze Ray and TK Blast are about the same as fast cast Water Jet. A standard 1.584 speed Snipe is a bit more at 109 dpa (if you have max +hit). The problem is that all the ways to set up Water Jet are abysmal. Indeed, the best performance you can eek out of it is to simply never cast any single target Water attack except Water Jet. This gives you 1-in-4 as a fast cast (for an average of 84 dpa). I guess you could do something like Ice Sword/Freezing Touch/Water Jet as your rotation. This would give you about 85 dps (before enhancements/procs). A reasonable standard for a mixed melee/ranged Blaster dps (pre-enhancement/proc) would be about 100 dps.

 

Water makes a lot more sense for a Defender, where the base damage isn't nearly as important and you can more realistically play games like quad-proc'ing Water Jet with no internal recharge.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Hjarki

[Duck-Smokes-Quack]

On 6/11/2023 at 11:45 PM, Ston said:

 

Yeah, what @Maris said. This list just compares ST damage.

 

Eventually Id like to do a test that compares their AoE clear speed. Might be able to get around to that soon! Water would do much better there, but Id still probably rank it average among Blaster sets since the ST DPS is pretty poor.

Ice/ is interesting, its AoE is tragic ... apart from the fact the Nuke is INSANE

I really wonder where a high recharge Ice/ with nuke on like a 20second CD or something would stack up in AoE terms

[Malinkadink]

10 hours ago, Duck-Smokes-Quack said:

Ice/ is interesting, its AoE is tragic ... apart from the fact the Nuke is INSANE

I really wonder where a high recharge Ice/ with nuke on like a 20second CD or something would stack up in AoE terms

 

Ice nuke is 170s base recharge, archery nuke is 60 sec base, my archery blaster can toss out a nuke every 15 seconds, for a fast moving team thats a nuke on every pack, the ice blaster will do 1 nuke for every 3  an archer can. 

[Hjarki]

1 hour ago, Malinkadink said:

 

Ice nuke is 170s base recharge, archery nuke is 60 sec base, my archery blaster can toss out a nuke every 15 seconds, for a fast moving team thats a nuke on every pack, the ice blaster will do 1 nuke for every 3  an archer can. 

Blizzard does 417 damage. Rain of Arrows does 150.

[Malinkadink]

20 hours ago, Hjarki said:

Blizzard does 417 damage. Rain of Arrows does 150.

 

 

417 vs 225

 

 

[JayboH]

I'm not surprised about Archery.  You ever play it on a Defender?  Painful.

 

Kinda surprised at Water being down there but it does have AOEs.  Happy to see Assault Rifle up there.  I hate Buckshot though and skip it.  Weak and kb?  pass

 

I figured Dark would be lower.  I thought Elec would be slightly higher after perma Voltaic + Shock gimmick.