Reduce the activation time of Storm Cell

[DrunkFlux]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Which was the later argument brought up. And not part of what I was arguing. As I said, multiple times already, my whole argument is your claim that the activation time is too long and the powers do not factor in fights at all on high damage teams is wrong. Again, like I already said, I was not arguing damage or power effectiveness. I just wanted the garbage claim that, at least in the case of Category 5 which you brought up, it affects any fight any team may find themselves in as fast (or faster in many cases) as other Blaster primary T9s. Nothing in any of my posts claimed Category 5 was the most powerful, most damaging, most effective attack. Just that it has a shorter cast time than some other powers, applies its damage sooner than most other powers, so can and does affect a fight it is used in. My other points were that not every power needs to be the best or particularly useful in the very quick fights high damage teams find themselves in as they steamroll maps. That a power can be reserved for the EBs, the AVs, the monsters, the giant monsters, and other times when the team bogs down.

 

So your just going to keep this loop going on ignoring practicality even when you agree with us that the damage is done far to slowly so its not even a factor more or less, I gotcha.  I love that you use this to beat around the bush that its just not effective enough for 90% of its effect to be in play which is what I was in fact saying, not that it was completely useless.  You have zero context; enemies are dead within 5-6 seconds so the power is there with nothing left to damage for about 80% of its remaining duration.  THAT IS WHAT I AM GETTING AT.

The arguement I make is that it just as well have not been used as it's just NOT doing enough damage to have really cleaned anything that much faster to begin with, once you account for an entire team of players pounding on some mobs.  It's the practicality law in effect:  You could just as well have used other powers and ignored category 5, as you would have gotten better results.  It's just THAT weak *facepalms*.

 

Your only nitpicking to try and claim an arguement victory at this point when you've been focusing on the wrong things in this conversation entirely.   

 

After my math category fives only damage done just as well have been the proc effect it has off of other storm powers, unless a fight lasts longer than 5 seconds its dps doesn't even get to max.  It's damage window should be cut down to about 10-15 seconds(same as blizzard) and actually brought in line WITH blizzard.  And it should be more upfront like blizzard.  The extra damage procs from other powers would be a fine bonus to have in it.

[DrunkFlux]

Correction on above post:  About 90% of cat 5s damage doesn't even apply if  fight is over in 5-6 seconds.  And storm cell....hardly relevant at all either 😞 after I looked over the mechanics and did the math in that one post.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, DrunkFlux said:

You could just as well have used other powers

Funny. That was my point too. That you can use other powers until the situation calls for Storm Cell or Category 5. Because you are on a high damage team. So the supplemental damage and effects from those powers are far less critical until you go up against an EB, AV, monster, GM, or other situation that bogs the team down.

[DrunkFlux]

Which is the problem, tier 9s are supposed to be something you WANT to use every chance you get on fresh mobs, not save it for an AV as nukes are not really meant to be AV killers.  Its little more than a buff for other powers effectively rather than an actual attack.  If I wanted to make an AV killer i'd make a scrapper or stalker.

 

At least cat 5 doesn't remove all of your endurance on using it like t9s in the old days did.  And the fact that it and storm cell have the main gimmicks of the powerset within them and fights don't last long enough for them to really do much.

 

Storms gimmicks just to unreliable.

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, DrunkFlux said:

Which is the problem, tier 9s are supposed to be something you WANT to use every chance you get on fresh mobs, not save it for an AV as nukes are not really meant to be AV killers.  Its little more than a buff for other powers effectively rather than an actual attack.  If I wanted to make an AV killer i'd make a scrapper or stalker.

 

At least cat 5 doesn't remove all of your endurance on using it like t9s in the old days did.  And the fact that it and storm cell have the main gimmicks of the powerset within them and fights don't last long enough for them to really do much.

 

Storms gimmicks just to unreliable.

That is a matter of personal play style. I don't use my nukes until I'm up against something that needs it. Some nice heavy damage to get the target's attention, clear out the support, and set me up to eat the target.

 

Edit: I just play the way the nukes used to be. If you were using a nuke, you were in a situation where you needed everything dead because once you used it, you were dependent on a tray full of blues to keep you in the fight.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Rudra

[DrunkFlux]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is a matter of personal play style. I don't use my nukes until I'm up against something that needs it. Some nice heavy damage to get the target's attention, clear out the support, and set me up to eat the target.

 

Edit: I just play the way the nukes used to be. If you were using a nuke, you were in a situation where you needed everything dead because once you used it, you were dependent on a tray full of blues to keep you in the fight.

 

That explains why you were defending it in that way, where-as I use nukes to clear trash mobs, I don't actually expect top dps against avs on ranged toons, I have stalkers and scrappers for that.  I even in my builds try to include as much cooldown as I can so i can have them up for as many fresh mobs as I can find.  My water/time blaster in fact is saturated enough with CR that hastens effect was diluted and so I skipped hasten.

[Wravis]

51 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That is a matter of personal play style. I don't use my nukes until I'm up against something that needs it. Some nice heavy damage to get the target's attention, clear out the support, and set me up to eat the target.

 

Edit: I just play the way the nukes used to be. If you were using a nuke, you were in a situation where you needed everything dead because once you used it, you were dependent on a tray full of blues to keep you in the fight.

 

 

And everyone else plays WRONG.

  

 

 

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

I'm glad there is a set that plays differently, that isn't trying to be Fire Blast Redux. It can still mesh well with the current meta for team play, you just have to focus on doing what you can instead of trying to be the star eating everything on the map.

 

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

the current meta of "uber maximum damage at all times!!!!!!".

 

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

 be honest with what you want. An upfront damage attack that you can use for uber maximum damage at all times!!!! so you can keep going with the current meta instead of finding a way to make it work with the current meta.

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

be honest about what you want. The damage to be condensed into a very short time frame. Not becuase the activation time is too long, but because you want more of the damage to apply in the more frequent short fights teams have.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

 not every power needs to be the best or particularly useful in the very quick fights high damage teams find themselves in as they steamroll maps

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Wravis

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Wravis said:

 

 

And everyone else plays WRONG.

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nowhere do I say others play wrong. So you can take that garbage and bury it. Even in your quotes of me, nowhere do I say "here is how you play correctly" or how to properly use any given power.

[Wravis]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Nowhere do I say others play wrong. So you can take that garbage and bury it. Even in your quotes of me, nowhere do I say "here is how you play correctly" or how to properly use any given power.

It's the way you mock people for playing in a way that you don't. Repeatedly. In bold text. With lots of extra exclamation points to emphasize your disdain.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Wravis

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Wravis said:

It's the way you mock people for playing in a way that you don't. Repeatedly. In bold text. With lots of extra exclamation points. To emphasize your disdain.

It's the current meta, isn't it? To max out your damage and steamroll everything? The emphasis is how I feel about how others keep presenting the meta to me. It is not disdain. It is not me telling others how to play. It is the emphasis on maxing out damage and steamrolling that I am constantly told about is the current meta. Or is that not the current meta and I am mistaken? The presentation that uber maximum damage at all times!!!!! is what I see and hear every time someone pops on the forums and talks about the current meta. That is not disdain, it is how the current meta is presented. You play your way; I'll play my way. And stop claiming I am telling others they are playing wrong.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to change bold to emphasis.

[Wravis]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

 The emphasis is how I feel about how others keep presenting the meta to me. It is not disdain. It is not me telling others how to play. It is the emphasis on maxing out damage and steamrolling that I am constantly told about is the current meta. Or is that not the current meta and I am mistaken? The presentation that uber maximum damage at all times!!!!! is what I see and hear every time someone pops on the forums and talks about the current meta. That is not disdain, it is how the current meta is presented.

 
Actually the way the meta was presented to you in this thread was not in bold with tons of mocking exclamations. It was a well thought out explanation.

 

13 hours ago, DrunkFlux said:

Everything in CoH is activation time economy, and Storm blasts biggest problem so far is just that, so it's actually, while a fun set numbers wise, they rarely are relevant in teamplay.  It does seem to be an exceptional solo set though, as then once its going the mobs die very quickly, quicker than average in fact as the high AoE damage just keeps going.  I cannot help but feel it wasn't tested long enough for feedback to matter, it was pushed out to early.

 

Activation time and burst is 'everything' for AoE power in the current meta of the game.  Thats why fire, ice and water blast are so powerful, they need no setup time to inflict the maximum damage, or can prep 'before' engaging.

 

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Wravis said:

 
Actually the way the meta was presented to you in this thread was not in bold with tons of mocking exclamations. It was a well thought out explanation.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's the current meta, isn't it? To max out your damage and steamroll everything? The emphasis is how I feel about how others keep presenting the meta to me. It is not disdain. It is not me telling others how to play. It is the emphasis on maxing out damage and steamrolling that I am constantly told about is the current meta. Or is that not the current meta and I am mistaken? The presentation that uber maximum damage at all times!!!!! is what I see and hear every time someone pops on the forums and talks about the current meta. That is not disdain, it is how the current meta is presented. You play your way; I'll play my way. And stop claiming I am telling others they are playing wrong.

Please, do keep putting your foot in your mouth.

[Wravis]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

the presentation that uber maximum damage at all times!!!!! is what I see and hear every time someone pops on the forums and talks about the current meta.

 

Yes. You see and hear anyone talking about playing the game differently than you do as an infantile yelling.
 

That is not how it was presented to you in this thread. But it's how you read it, because you don't like it. And I know you don't like it because you criticize it over and over.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Wravis

[Rudra]

Is there some reason you find offense in everything I say on the forums? Is there some reason why we can't have a difference of opinion that doesn't always boil down to this?

 

That I have my preferences for how to play is no secret. I've told others on these forums about my preferences every time it comes up. That others have their preferences for how to play is no secret. It comes up on these forums quite frequently. I don't have any issue with players playing however they want. Never have, never will. I have issues with changing powers to fit a specific play style just because it is the current meta. The current meta was not always the game meta. There was a meta before this one. There was a meta before that one too. Players can take the powers in a power set and find ways to make them fit their play style. They can find ways to take the powers in a power set and make them fit the meta. Sometimes that is easy. Other times that takes a lot of effort. In Storm Blast's case, it seems to fall into the latter category. It does not adhere to the current meta. Instead, it opens up new options for players to investigate. And those options can work with the current meta, though it may take more effort than some players are willing to devote to it.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 hours ago, DrunkFlux said:

I'm losing brain cells reading this, are you kidding me?  Are you being exceedingly literal or something?  Even then your doing a horrible job at it because now your logic isnt even there, I don't know how you seriously think category 5 is applying its damage faster, its NOT.
 

A power that does 500 damage, or maybe even 1000 damage after buffed up, at its activation time or halfway through often its all up front.  It doesn't need thirty seconds to apply that.

 

Ok lets talk nuke chain.  And what often happens, when someone is serious about destroying enemies.  We'll assume five seconds and ONLY five second given, with a tiny bit of leeway, final power can go past, but damage has to be inflicted in that.  BU+Aim allowed BEFORE fighting.  We'll assume we are both giving our best, who will beat who.

 

We'll assume your damage is enhanced to 100% and your using gaussian and on a blaster, with Build up from Energy manip as thats standard baseline.  Storms intensify has a 31.25% damage buff and we slot gaussian in there for another 40% damage buff for half the duration of the main buffs.  In damage categorization your looking at a damage multiplier of 3.7125 in total of the baseline damage.

Enhanced the damage 'stated' by category five is 316, enhanced it'll be around 632, but if we divide that by 30 on average your only looking at TWENTY EFFECTIVE DAMAGE PER SECOND.  Now, you could buff that up but the AIM power is largely weak at about 31.25% and the BU proc (which is 40% and so we have to use a real build up(100%) which gives us a damage boost of 171.25% on top of enhanced damage (assuming 100% of course for simplicity) for a total damage multiplier of 3.7125.  the max theoretical is 1, 173.15 BUT we have another problem.  Thats only the DoT and we have to divide that down sharply by 30 seconds to average, only 58 damage/second. If they only last a few seconds say, 5 seconds your only getting off 290.94 damage inflicted, DPS...well...stated...:/.  Onto the other feature.

You HAVE to use the other powers to proc the lightning blast, and odds are very very good that you'll get maaybe 1-2 attacks off after cat 5 is active, maybe 3 at the most, for about 68*3 BUT BUT BUT we hae to REMOVE 1 of those 3 so it'll only be 68*2.  And that does NOT benefit from enhancement or buffs.  So its unchanged.  I'll let you add chain lightning for 283(76.45*3.7125) to up to 16, BUT the proc from lightning storm only hits up to 5.  And now we are not even looking at category five but the followups in the nuke chain.  Odds are yuou may be doing a lot of damage per second in the AoE, BUT THIS IS BECAUSE YOUR FOLLOWING UP WITH OTHER ATTACKS LIKE ANYONE WOULD WITH ANY POWERSET.
 

So we have a laughable damage situation here.  290.94 + 283 = 573.94, and one power left.

This is just cat 5 but what about what the original OP talked about? Well at least this one gets damage buffs but theres a problem, pseudopets lose the damage boost after a short period, so the BU combo will only last 10 seconds, and halfway through that your losing the gaussian proc.  But you have time, compared to me as i'll only get 2 attacks, but 2 is all I need and I'll have already out-done you.



At most on one enemy it will only hit 75.07*3.7125 = 278.7 'once'.  If your lucky.  Or it'll dilute to 139.36 on 2 or even less down to  69.68 damage to 4 targets.  Thats if you get lucky, you have to remember that your activating storm cell while the BU is active so now your losing a LOT of activation time of that 5 second buff so you'll lose .4 in that calculation.  So we cannot even factor Storm cell, its not worthwhile or even worthy of a nuke chain *facepalms, smacks head*.  You COULD follow up but it's not going to do anything to add.

 

  So your going to have to use jet stream to finish the chain for optimal results.  In this case, 50.05*3.7125 = 185.81 vs 10 targets.

 

573.94 + 185.81 = 759.75 over 3 attacks in the chain.  If your luck you could add 69.68 but thats 4 targets, see below for 

Total damage practical in 5 seconds: 759.75 / 151.95  Also with 3 powers(this'll become relevant see below)

But your effectively getting, either way, all your damage from your other attacks, your using them to proc the extras that, 

31.28+93.84+(11*10.67) = 242.49 * 3.7125 = 900.24 so ok i'm doing less BUUUUUT I do about half that instantly AAAND the remaining half is done over only FIVE seconds and up to SIXTEEN TARGETS.  AND I CAN ALWAYS FOLLOWUP WITH STEAM SPRAY AND STILL PROBABLY HAVE THE BU PROC.  449.21 damage done on followup on up to 10 targets.  And the followup is applying damage during that 5 seconds, so my AoE BURST is going to be over that five seconds to 10 targets 1,349.45 damage with another 6 experiencing 900.24 damage. 

 

900/5 = 180 damage done per second from just geysar.  I've beaten you with just 'one' power.  If I go with both stacked...
1349..45/5 = 269.89 DPS to group.  I didn't just beat you, I 'completely' floored you.  HARD.

A fire blaster will leave even me in the dust in 3 seconds:  Aim is more powerful by about twice the raw damage buff, 62.5  I add the damage up with gaus to 102.5+BU100 + Enhanced 100+base for total multiplier of 4.025!  Base INFERNO damage is 410.94 at 50!  I don't even have a chance:  410.94*4.025 = 1654.0335!  Divide by 3...know I won't even do that here.

 

Your, not even CLOSE.

Other Tier 9s do 250 base and same aim power, so 250.25*4.025 = 1007.  Still beating both of us with 3 seconds, and they still have a normal AoE to throw in there, many do around 56 damage, and thats the lowest so lets try that, but many do more; 56.21 * 4.025 =226

1226 / 5 = 245.2/second.  Still flooring you.

 

wall of text crits for over 9000

 

 

Storm is fine people just want instant gratification.

"gimme fast aoe, faster faster aoe, more faster aoe!" lol  

 

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

49 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Storm is fine people just want instant gratification.

"gimme fast aoe, faster faster aoe, more faster aoe!" lol  

It's OK.  It could be better.  Just a little bit better and it would be excellent, even if not the fastest most damaging set.

[DrunkFlux]

5 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

wall of text crits for over 9000

 

 

Storm is fine people just want instant gratification.

"gimme fast aoe, faster faster aoe, more faster aoe!" lol  

 

 

 

 

Mostly saying it could be better, doesn't have to be the best, just needs adjusted.  Even the AoE weak sets are a lot stronger.  The fact that many mobs die way to quickly before the lightning strikes/high winds from storm cell become relevant and the DoT from cat5 takes as long as the shiny pistol takes to clean itself after every single shot.  I mean, a later post I think I even pointed out just tightening the damage on cat 5 would be great.

I think also maybe making storm cell more like a toggle centered on the user would significantly help storm blast to, wouldn't need to recast it all the time.  Or just make it move faster.

[Rudra]

I really wish City of Data gave information I could make sense of over how Category 5 applies its own damage rather than the supplemental lightning aura. I want to see how Category 5 actually compares to Inferno's 10 seconds (9.933 seconds actually, I'm rounding off) to apply its full damage.

[DrunkFlux]

8 hours ago, Wravis said:

Yes. You see and hear anyone talking about playing the game differently than you do as an infantile yelling.
 

That is not how it was presented to you in this thread. But it's how you read it, because you don't like it. And I know you don't like it because you criticize it over and over.

 

100% the vibe I got from Rubra here last night I admit.

I'll just leave here since I'd rather not spend the entire day talking about things; my blaster has a cooldown of 39 seconds on geysar.  I don't use hasten I don't have it slotted.
My other maxed out blaster has energy blast, no knockback to knockdown, no hasten.  Her nova cooldown is approx 1 minute.

A "stop having fun! guy"(Or scrub, which is an opposite) would chastise me for not having hasten to squeeze like, 6-7 seconds off geysar or 10 seconds off nova.  Because Hasten is "meta"(note the quotes though), all the while, many would hate me on my energy blaster for not slotting kb to kd, even if I was mopping the floor with the entire map, over not playing their one specific way.  Both though are extremely optimized for me to play at the highest level for how I play and how I coordinate with the team when necessary, both are built allow me high levels of adaptability and reactiveness to changing situations.  But shfg's dismiss that, i'm automatically lesser for not playing like them.  Even when I mop up half the map.

 

(If your wondering, i'm a VERY twitchy player and its very visible in my movements, racing lines with flight, combat teleport binds and I jump around and joust a lot)

To Rudra:
It IS very lacking in maturity to get upset over others playstyle.  If thats the entire reason you dislike my ideas on improving storms category 5, well how would buffing category 5 to be a serviceable nuke effect you if you still only use it on AVs?

 

I'd recommend that you seriously think about things instead of having a huge level of disdain for how others play.  Because thats very unhealthy and to be honest, I've seen that mentality outright destroy games before, its toxic.

 

(Edit to clarify the last part who its for)

Edited May 4, 2023 by DrunkFlux

[DrunkFlux]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I really wish City of Data gave information I could make sense of over how Category 5 applies its own damage rather than the supplemental lightning aura. I want to see how Category 5 actually compares to Inferno's 10 seconds (9.933 seconds actually, I'm rounding off) to apply its full damage.

 

The in-game description and numbers in-game shows the main damage as being 30 seconds of the 151 tics of damage that are low and 25 seconds of higher damage tics.  I kind of put two and two together in how I was seeing it function and its description that for 5 seconds the later 25 second higher damage tic doesnt apply.  In fact I pulled my numbers from what I was looking at in game from the blaster charts(as they are most accurate and also allowed me to use my water blaster as a control in the math).

Inferno applies a majority of its damage upfront and then the rest as DoT, thats true of all fire blast powers, the DoT in fact is really more of a very nice bonus.  It isn't smoothed out over that 10 seconds :).

[Rudra]

14 minutes ago, DrunkFlux said:

  I don't use hasten I don't have it slotted.

Neither do I. I don't believe it is necessary like how others claim. I'm fine with them using it, just not telling others that they need to use it.

 

14 minutes ago, DrunkFlux said:

me on my energy blaster for not slotting kb to kd

Sounds like my Energy Blast Blaster.

 

 

10 minutes ago, DrunkFlux said:

Inferno applies a majority of its damage upfront and then the rest as DoT

Inferno applies 162.347525 of its damage as a DoT over 8.1 seconds. That's 64.88% of the initial 250.246 damage. (Edit: 40% of its total damage. [39.35% actually.])

Edited May 4, 2023 by Rudra

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, Wravis said:

Yes. You see and hear anyone talking about playing the game differently than you do as an infantile yelling.
 

That is not how it was presented to you in this thread. But it's how you read it, because you don't like it. And I know you don't like it because you criticize it over and over.

You and others may see me as disdainful to the current meta, but you know what I see as disdainful though? The demand to make every power in every power set fit the way you play, fit the current meta, because only that play style counts. That if a power set is not designed to perfectly fit into your play style, that set is wrong or broken or underperforming and needs to be fixed until it fits your play style perfectly. There are other play styles in the game. Everyone has their own approach to how to play this game. Not everything has to fit into your preferred play style. The current meta does not have to be the only way to play or for power sets to be designed.

[TheZag]

Its not necessary to convince other players while in the suggestion forum.  It is where the majority of pvp is conducted though.

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

20 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I agree that Storm blast, as a whole, takes too long to take down mobs.

 

With most of the other blast sets if you hit aim/build up or equivalent and then your T9, then the minions are gone, possibly the Lts. too, leaving just the harder targets to finish off.  I am talking about solo and at 50+ with a completed build.  In a team of well-made characters by the time I cast Storm Cell most of the group is dead.  If I don't follow up with another blast Storm Cell is just a debuff and adds no damage.  If I follow up with Cat5 a few bosses will take Damage over Time in the single digits and I'll need to fire several more attacks to kill them off.

 

In other words, it takes me about twice as long solo to clear a group as it does with other blast sets.  However, I find that Storm blast seems safer than some others as the combination of -tohit, knocks, and fear keeps critters off my back.

 

Does the set "work" as it is?  Sure, it can get the job done and it's pretty to look at.  But it seems like it takes too long to build up.  Without Storm Cell, the other powers don't seem to do enough damage and you lose a lot of the mitigation.  I think the set needs a little bit more.  Maybe faster activation; maybe a bit of delayed damage from Storm Cell independent of the Lightning triggered by other attacks; maybe make Intensify boost damage a little more or last a little longer.

 

At least, that's my opinion after having played a Storm/Storm Corrupter to 50+3 along with playing every other blast set to 50+3 in one AT or another and usually several times over.

Cat 5 and Storm Cell are both designed so that if you want them to be at their most effective, you need to be firing off your other attacks. Your other attacks are what procs Cat 5 to be its most destructive

[MHertz]

All of the back and forth about who made exactly which argument, and which arguments are strawmen, is tiresome. Let’s cut to the chase.

 

Under what conditions should powers be balanced? Balanced so all powers are able to “contribute” to a fully-maxed out and slotted-up team that steamrolls everything? Or solo? With or without procs and purple IO sets? With or without Incarnate? With or without PTW powers? On what difficulty setting?

 

Personally, I fear that balancing toward “contribute to a team that steamrolls everything in seconds” will lead to further power creep. If Storm Cell or Cat 5 are balanced to deliver more damage under those conditions, there will be some other set that falls behind, due to activation time or animation time issues or DOT or something else. Then they will start to say “hey, our T9 should contribute too” and get buffed and then someone else will fall behind.

 

Honestly, it feels like the enemies need to be balanced to be harder overall — or at least have more Health so they last longer — because “we steamroll in seconds and I wasted a power” is not an ideal environment for gauging power utility or group dynamics. That move would slow down solo artists, so that would have to be considered as well. Maybe make enemy Health scale with group size? Or maybe make powers scale with team size?

Edited May 5, 2023 by MHertz