Energy Cloak

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Hello everyone. This thread might be in the wrong section if so i apologize and request it be moved to the reported bug section otherwise here goes.

 

I was under the impression that power pool powers were never supposed to be stronger than their main powerset counterparts. Now if that is true then this thread belongs in the bug section if not here is my request.

 

The power energy cloak in energy armor provides less of a stealth bonus (tested) than the stealth power from the power pools even though stealth is far less opaque. 

 

I humbly request energy cloak getting a stealth buff or stealth getting a stealth nerf or at the very least make energy cloak have less of an invisible effect than stealth.

 

Thank you for reading my Ted talk

[FupDup]

Energy Cloak offers a larger defense bonus and it gets to keep the full value during combat, unlike Stealth which loses most of its def in battle. Also, Energy Cloak has a somewhat lower endurance cost. 

[Psyonico]

Many stealth-like powers don't get as much of a stealth radius as Stealth does.  This is because a few pages back the devs combined two powers in the concealment and added infiltration.

 

I suspect you'd be opening up a can of worms if energy cloak got a buff (BTW Energy Aura doesn't need a buff) without buffing every other power that is similar in nature (Cloak Of Darkness for example)

 

And if we buff those powers, we need to look at buffing the stealth IOs, since they would then be less useful, and power creep continues.

[Rudra]

According to City of Data, Energy Cloak grants a +3.75% defense bonus and Stealth grants a +7.5% defense bonus. However, Energy Cloak stays at +3.75% during combat where Stealth drops to +1.875%. So yeah, Energy Cloak grants the higher combat defense, but not a higher defense bonus in general. Still leaves me undecided on the subject though.

 

Edit: I of course post at the same time as @Psyonico, and @Psyonico makes a very strong point. Consider me no longer undecided.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Energy Cloak grants a +3.75% defense bonus and Stealth grants a +7.5% defense bonus. However, Energy Cloak stays at +3.75% during combat where Stealth drops to +1.875%.

This, and a generally lower end cost, seem to be the "trade-off" that primary or secondary stealth powers get, in exchange for a lower stealth radius...

[Outrider_01]

The upside, is Stealth is the new old Invisiblity level of stealth. 1 power, without having to use a stealth IO.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Nothing getting buffed or nerfed is fine. I know how people feel about nerfs and creep. How about my 3rd suggestion where powers that have lower stealth values are less transparent than powers with higher stealth values?

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Nothing getting buffed or nerfed is fine. I know how people feel about nerfs and creep. How about my 3rd suggestion where powers that have lower stealth values are less transparent than powers with higher stealth values?

Given the repeating calls for all stealth powers to have less transparency, not likely going to be a popular request.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

56 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Given the repeating calls for all stealth powers to have less transparency, not likely going to be a popular request.

im not asking for ALL stealth powers to have less transparency i'm asking for the level of transparency to match the level of stealth. I know logic has no place here but there it is. lol

[Uun]

Many of the stealth powers have options at the tailor to change the level of transparency. I believe Stealth and Cloak of Darkness do, but I don't remember whether Energy Cloak does. 

 

One of the unique aspects of Energy Cloak and Cloak of Darkness is that while the stealth suppresses in combat, it only suppresses with respect to the spawn you're fighting. Your presence is not revealed to nearby spawns (unless you attack them).

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

im not asking for ALL stealth powers to have less transparency i'm asking for the level of transparency to match the level of stealth. I know logic has no place here but there it is. lol

 

Which level of stealth? This one?

 

 

Or this one?

 

 

 

Energy Cloak right now is:

 

 

which I like. So if you wanted it to be the less stealthy version? Only if it's a tailor option. I don't want the transparent look taken away from me.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, Uun said:

Many of the stealth powers have options at the tailor to change the level of transparency. I believe Stealth and Cloak of Darkness do, but I don't remember whether Energy Cloak does. 

 

One of the unique aspects of Energy Cloak and Cloak of Darkness is that while the stealth suppresses in combat, it only suppresses with respect to the spawn you're fighting. Your presence is not revealed to nearby spawns (unless you attack them).

 

A. Energy cloak does not allow changes in transparency at the tailor

B. Completely untrue. The moment you get close enough to be detected, if you either give/take damage stealth is broken and you are detected by the entire mob.

 

 

 

[electric_emu]

I don't mind Energy Cloak being partial stealth, but I would appreciate a no transparency and/or reduced transparency option in power customization.  I love Energy Aura but hate feeling compelled (Energy Cloak is an excellent power!) to be completely see through when not in combat. 

 

I also agree that it's a bit strange when compared to the buffed Stealth, which mechanically is "full" invisibility but visually not.  Maybe give that a transparency slider/option too. 

[lemming]

My only complaint is that Energy Aura for Sentinels doesn't get Energy Cloak, but Brutes do.  It's just a weird inconsistency in my opinion, but not a huge deal.

[Rudra]

7 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

im not asking for ALL stealth powers to have less transparency i'm asking for the level of transparency to match the level of stealth. I know logic has no place here but there it is. lol

The point I was making is that some players do want all stealth powers to have less transparency. So if transparency itself is to be addressed, I'm certain they would be opposed to tiered transparency as opposed to no transparency. Now, if you were to make this an option? So that the player can stick with current transparency, choose for minimal transparency, or choose to have the tiered transparency, I'm more inclined to believe there would not be push back. Except maybe from the devs who would then be asked to make all these options for us.

 

51 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

B. Completely untrue. The moment you get close enough to be detected, if you either give/take damage stealth is broken and you are detected by the entire mob.

That is what @Uun meant. The entire spawn. A mob is single mobile object in the game. (Edit: So basically, as long as Cloak of Darkness or Energy Cloak are active, other spawns, meaning other groups, in the area are still less likely to notice your character smashing their friends just a little ways away from them. Stealth [the power] is not so helpful in this regard.)

Edited May 2, 2023 by Rudra

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

The entire spawn. A mob is single mobile object in the game.

The confusion between the game-programming usage of 'mob' from 'Mobile OBject' and the common usage 'a large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence.' drives me up the wall sometimes.

[biostem]

6 hours ago, lemming said:

My only complaint is that Energy Aura for Sentinels doesn't get Energy Cloak, but Brutes do.  It's just a weird inconsistency in my opinion, but not a huge deal.

I wonder what the rationale was for giving them an auto +DEF instead.

[A.I.D.A.]

. . . Out-of-combat defense is a non-benefit. If you're out of combat, you're not being targeted with any attacks to defend against, and the moment something targets you, whether it hits or misses, you become flagged as in-combat.

[Uun]

16 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

and the moment something targets you, whether it hits or misses, you become flagged as in-combat.

If you're attacked but the attack misses, your defense doesn't drop.

 

 

[A.I.D.A.]

Huh, interesting. But still the absolute tiniest possible benefit that can exist in this game, seeing as it's not hard for any archetype with Energy Aura to softcap defenses in combat. And even if you couldn't, it's of extremely questionable value to dodge the one shot that enemies will throw at you while you fly by. If you're going to fight, it is irrelevant -- if you aren't going to fight, it's still irrelevant because you've zoomed past after one shot.

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

Huh, interesting. But still the absolute tiniest possible benefit that can exist in this game, seeing as it's not hard for any archetype with Energy Aura to softcap defenses in combat. And even if you couldn't, it's of extremely questionable value to dodge the one shot that enemies will throw at you while you fly by. If you're going to fight, it is irrelevant -- if you aren't going to fight, it's still irrelevant because you've zoomed past after one shot.

If you are trying to stealth a mission for any reason, the out of combat bonus helps keep you stealthed against other spawns even when a mob or spawn sees you and throws attacks your way. Provided they miss. If you're using Stealth and you're hit and you've flown past that group that sees you? You are now in combat and very likely to be seen by every other spawn that will now shoot at you, at your reduced defense value, making stealthing the mission pretty well impossible. It's the difference of having full health when you get to your target or being almost dead from everything that blasted you as you passed making you wonder why you didn't just murder everything on the board in the first place. Niche? Yes. The absolute tiniest possible benefit? No.

 

Edit: And if you are playing up through the levels? Then its not so easy to soft cap your defenses with Energy Aura until later in levels. Low to mid levels, sometimes even into some of the higher levels, when you are playing up through the content, you aren't likely to have soft capped defenses.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Rudra

[Uun]

@A.I.D.A. just to clarify, the defense in Energy Cloak doesn't suppress in combat. Only the pool powers Stealth and Infiltration have defense that suppresses in combat. The screenshot above is for Stealth.

[A.I.D.A.]

4 hours ago, Uun said:

@A.I.D.A. just to clarify, the defense in Energy Cloak doesn't suppress in combat. Only the pool powers Stealth and Infiltration have defense that suppresses in combat. The screenshot above is for Stealth.

 

I am well aware of that. My point is that Stealth _is_ worse than Energy Cloak. It's worse as a defense power by about 50%, in all ways that really matter. Out-of-combat defense is a non-benefit. Whatever stupid edge-cases some people in this thread might brain-twist themselves into thinking are relevant. This whole thread is a pointless suggestion predicated on a false premise.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by A.I.D.A.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, A.I.D.A. said:

 

I am well aware of that. My point is that Stealth _is_ worse than Energy Cloak. It's worse as a defense power by about 50%, in all ways that really matter. Out-of-combat defense is a non-benefit. Whatever stupid edge-cases some people in this thread might brain-twist themselves into thinking are relevant. This whole thread is a pointless suggestion predicated on a false premise.

 

And after the OP, no one said Stealth was a better power than Energy Cloak. Out of combat defense is only a non-benefit if you only choose to fight everything you come across. For players that like to sneak their missions, it is very much a useful benefit. All I am saying is that Stealth is not as bad as you are making it out to be.

[A.I.D.A.]

I have used Stealth before. Any character who is intending to stealth missions has enough stealth radius not to get seen even when bumping hitboxes with AVs -- it's extremely simple. Even the stealth powers with the lowest radii can combine with a stealth IO to reach this.

 

Out-of-combat defense is _explicitly_ a non-benefit.