Misconceptions about a tank

[MoonSheep]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:51 AM, Diantane said:

Players seem to think that a tank does incredible damage. I see players with several low tier, weak secondary attacks up front. Made an Invul tank one day and a player asked me if I had Super Strength. That is a very popular cookie cutter build.

Does it do a lot of damage? Not compared to a scrapper or brute where those same attacks are their primary powers.

 

brutes tend to have lower damage than tanks and scrappers in the current version of the game, they’re often the worst choice if you’re looking for a high damage melee AT

 

a player did some comprehensive testing of brutes, scrappers and tanks recently. tanks are the highest DPS choice for melee players

 

 

[Sovera]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:10 AM, PyroNugget said:

this is just overwhelmingly BAD information!

 

nearly every single set bonus( barring the +2-4% direst dmg increases) are DEFENSIVE BASED

 

let me say that again for the OP--99% of every SINGLE SET BONUS are DEFENSIVE(general term) BASED!!

 

wish you could get to the 45% DEFENSE soft cap, better start slotting set bonus IN YOUR ATTACKS!

 

want your smash/lethal RESISTS at 90%?...  set bonuses in your attacks can get you there.

 

ACROSS the board, you have hole, fill it with set bonuses, EVERY SINGLE SET IN THE GAME--ffs i need bigger caps so he can read.

 

oh and as a by product of actually making your tank better, you also have +ACC,DMG,RECH and END REDUC!

 

just shamefully bad information,this is the COH equivalent of telling people to drink bleach for whiter teeth( DO NOT DO THIS!)

 

I see you've just met Diantane. We've had the guy around for a few months and every so often he will make a thread and drop some of these nuggets of wisdom. Then vanish, not reply or refute. Cycle repeats after a few weeks.

[Gobbledigook]

8 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Simply because you managed to kill everything doesn't mean your Tank does not suck.
i
😁

It does not mean it does either.

[Parabola]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

I see you've just met Diantane. We've had the guy around for a few months and every so often he will make a thread and drop some of these nuggets of wisdom. Then vanish, not reply or refute. Cycle repeats after a few weeks.

Trolling in other words. Luckily the ignore function exists.

[Gobbledigook]

2 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

brutes tend to have lower damage than tanks and scrappers in the current version of the game, they’re often the worst choice if you’re looking for a high damage melee AT

 

a player did some comprehensive testing of brutes, scrappers and tanks recently. tanks are the highest DPS choice for melee players

 

 

That is misinformation also. Tankers do not have higher damage/dps than Brutes/scrappers general. They have better AoE due to increased arcs/rad/targets. They are good trash clearers but weaker boss killers. Usually it is down to placing procs everywhere they can.

 

Fire melee is very potent due to having an extra AoE attack compared to Brutes/scrapper version.

Electric melee, which has quite a lot of AoE and is comparable on Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers is lowest on Tankers for clear time. 

 

Just saying Tankers (not Tanks) are "the highest dps" is wrong.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[PyroNugget]

after looking at a few of the OPs previous posts, i think i have this one solved

 

he doesn't play with set bonuses ,ergo must be playing SO only builds

 

-- no set bonuses= attacks add nothing to tank defenses CHECK

-- must have tough and weave help pad primary              CHECK

 

@Sovera was a weird rabbithole reading some of those posts--he doesn't use incarnates either so add that to the tankers suck pile

 

[Gobbledigook]

14 minutes ago, PyroNugget said:

after looking at a few of the OPs previous posts, i think i have this one solved

 

he doesn't play with set bonuses ,ergo must be playing SO only builds

 

-- no set bonuses= attacks add nothing to tank defenses CHECK

-- must have tough and weave help pad primary              CHECK

 

@Sovera was a weird rabbithole reading some of those posts--he doesn't use incarnates either so add that to the tankers suck pile

 

Please don't use the "suck" word lol. We are entitled to do what we want. It may be less effective and will struggle in some content but it is their choice. Most content is very easy. I could build a Tank with just SO's that would work fine in most content with a team also.

 

What next a dps monitor in game to call out "you're dps sucks" ?

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Gobbledigook

[PyroNugget]

yeah i keep forgetting sarcasm is lost in text.

 

and also yes,poor choice of words on my part.

 

i will go play a scrapper in penance.

 

torches and pitchforks for sale in the lobby.

[Hyperstrike]

Bah!  Tanks shouldn't need DPS!

REAL tanks should be happy fighting to an eternal standstill if they aren't able to arrange things so they can take a month and a half  (SOLID) to SLOWLY sand off every...last...HP the poor enemy has...

And I'm not talking 80 grit!
I'm talking 5000 grit!

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

That is misinformation also. Tankers do not have higher damage/dps than Brutes/scrappers general.

 

It's not misinformation, but MoonSheep is definitely over-generalizing the results.  Ston's thread gives all the conditions and context, so it's worth a read.  Summary though: It's a solo Trapdoor mission test run at +4/x8 with a proc-heavy Incarnate build.  Different melee offense powersets, but always Willpower for defense.  

 

In other words, it might not represent well how these same ATs operate with other armor powersets or while on teams.  The scrapper for example, and Ston mentions this, loses some DPS efficiency for having the weakest aggro management of the three.  Tankers have several advantages soloing, starting with the ability to just about ignore building additional survival.  They're already there.  And they manage the crowd easily with overlapping punch-voke taunts and a wider taunt aura than the other two.  Their AoEs hit more targets and, very notably, do not get penalized for proc chance due to larger AoE size.  

 

If this test highlights anything at all it's how badly broken damage procs are.

[InvaderStych]

So, when are they going to fix the problem caused by AoE size increases for Tanks giving them a greater rate of successful Proc rolls than the AoE in question should be getting? Because that's broken and Tanks are cheating procs in AoEs.

 

PPM calculation includes Area Factor, which reduces the % chance of a successful proc roll. Larger the AoE, Lower the Chance.

 

This calculation does NOT factor in the size buff granted to tanks.  So if an AoE was 10', it is now 15' but still calculates Proc chances at the rate for a 10' AoE. More successful rolls than it should be getting on an increased target count.

 

6 minutes ago, ZemX said:

If this test highlights anything at all it's how badly broken damage procs are.

 

Debatable elsewhere, but right now Tanks are getting more out of them in AoEs than any other AT.

Edited May 17, 2023 by InvaderStych
typing is hard

[ZemX]

2 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Debatable elsewhere, but right now Tanks are getting more out of them in AoEs than any other AT.

 

Fair is fair.  If people want global strength buffs like Arc and Radius factored into proc calculations then so should Global Recharge strength.

 

Who's with me!? 😈

[InvaderStych]

Yup, I was right the first time.

 

City of Tanks.

Edited May 17, 2023 by InvaderStych

[ZemX]

53 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

Yup, I was right the first time.

 

City of Tanks.

 

Well, I'm glad that's settled!

 

19 hours ago, Brawlin said:

For 99% of the game a tanker is not needed in the first place

 

Well, I'm glad that's settled!

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

 

It's not misinformation, but MoonSheep is definitely over-generalizing the results.  Ston's thread gives all the conditions and context, so it's worth a read.  Summary though: It's a solo Trapdoor mission test run at +4/x8 with a proc-heavy Incarnate build.  Different melee offense powersets, but always Willpower for defense.  

 

In other words, it might not represent well how these same ATs operate with other armor powersets or while on teams.  The scrapper for example, and Ston mentions this, loses some DPS efficiency for having the weakest aggro management of the three.  Tankers have several advantages soloing, starting with the ability to just about ignore building additional survival.  They're already there.  And they manage the crowd easily with overlapping punch-voke taunts and a wider taunt aura than the other two.  Their AoEs hit more targets and, very notably, do not get penalized for proc chance due to larger AoE size.  

 

If this test highlights anything at all it's how badly broken damage procs are.

 

overall however, if you want to clear content - often the primary objective of seeking higher dps, then tanks are the best choice

 

if one was wanting a melee pvp AT then yes, tanks would not be the optimal choice 

[InvaderStych]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Well, I'm glad that's settled!

 

Me too. I meant to put some sort of light-hearted symbolic facial expression thing in there, but I forgot.

[tidge]

I popped in to write, based on my experiences:

 

Tanks don't have to dedicate many slots to their primaries. I find myself picking slots based on set bonuses/global effects.

 

(some) Tanks don't have to run with (all) their toggles on, the HP pool and fast defeat times from teammates can make toggles less important. This is empirically rediscovered every time my PUG gets to the AV fight and I realize I never retoggled some of my powers.

 

The typical OP from this guy discourages me from coming close to a direct response: I'm not sure that the Tanker's primary job is to "prevent teammates from taking damage". Grabbing and keeping aggro is definitely part of the job, but it isn't like a Tanker can magically prevent AoE attacks. I definitely feel that (good) Tankers need to have a deep situational awareness of what is going on with a team, and with a mission. Some examples:

 

1) If the team is speeding to the final boss on a map, and not every player can get there... maybe the Tanker shouldn't plow straight to the end waking up every spawn? There are a lot of maps where this is bad, but there are some where it is REALLY BAD (including Treespecs)

 

2) If the enemy throws an AoE debuff on the Tank... maybe the tank shouldn't stay clustered with the rest of the team? Ehem Clamor. That green cloud you are rocking is lowering the Defense and ToHit of all your nearby teammates.

[Hyperstrike]

19 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Me too. I meant to put some sort of light-hearted symbolic facial expression thing in there, but I forgot.

[Gobbledigook]

11 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Your profile picture keeps moving. Thought i was imagining it lol. First time i've noticed.

[ZemX]

2 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

overall however, if you want to clear content - often the primary objective of seeking higher dps, then tanks are the best choice

 

Except for a few odd outliers, most of the results are within a few percentage points of each other in clear times.  Scrappers in this test are beating Tankers for about half of the powersets shown and that's with the built-in disadvantage of less aggro control, which hurts them in this solo test.   In a team, they are easily outdamaging Tankers, especially in non-ideal cases where the spawns are not so easily bunched together.

 

Frankly, in a team of toons built to this extreme you aren't going to notice ANY differences among them.  

 

And you don't really see a City of Tankers when you are in game either, so if Tanks are such hot commodities, few seem to realize it.  At the highest end, it almost doesn't matter what you are playing.  At the lower end of content and in low/mid levels, Tankers are by no means outdamaging the other melee ATs.

 

[MadCrytter]

I always found the appeal of this game was that standard Tank-Healer-DPS roles were tossed out the window. 

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Gobbledigook said:

Your profile picture keeps moving. Thought i was imagining it lol. First time i've noticed.

 

😁

The guys on the CO forums thought they were losing it too.
It's a simple 2-frame gif.  Quite tiny so it doesn't swamp the server or exceed allotted filespace.  Slow and simple so it's "messing with you", instead of being big and showy and in your face.

[Gobbledigook]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

 

😁

The guys on the CO forums thought they were losing it too.
It's a simple 2-frame gif.  Quite tiny so it doesn't swamp the server or exceed allotted filespace.  Slow and simple so it's "messing with you", instead of being big and showy and in your face.

Champions online?

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

Champions online?

Yeah.  Scored a lifetime account in trade for some convention swag the year they showed at GenCon.

[Gobbledigook]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yeah.  Scored a lifetime account in trade for some convention swag the year they showed at GenCon.

I had a lifetime account i bought before launch. Played it for 6 months then never returned lol. Don't know if still active? probably not.