APPs for Kheldians

[0th Power]

Backstory on this idea (don't worry its short) - A SG member was talking about their idea for APPs based on kheldin powers and I thought that they meant APPs for Kheldians.  Anyway... I started brainstorming and this is what I got (so far).

 

One of the biggest hurdles in building a peacebringer or warshade is the scarcity of slots combined that with all possible powers being available at or before level 32, it makes them (at least for me) less attractive to play.  My idea would hopefully solve these two issues, hopefully without powercreep.

 

The new APPs would be exclusive to peacebringers and warshades respectively.  Both would have a new form for their first power.  For the 2-5th powers it would be a selection of an additional slot(s).

 

35	New form
35	1 slot
38	1 slot
41	2 slots
44	2 slots

 

We have nova form for the blaster roll, Dwarf for the tank role and human form for the scrapper/sentinelish roll.  For the new form I was thinking something that took on sort of a controller role (I know controllers are undervalued in end game stuff, may be a problem but not worrying about that now).   Here's what I was thinking for the new form's powers

 

New Peacebringer form powers		New Warshade form powers
PB AoE Heal +ally recov for short time		TAoE heal -regen target
AoE Immob		TAoE slow -fly -jump (quicksand clone)
ST hold		ST Heal
ST Buff (clone of fortitude?)		ST Buff (clone of painbringer?)
Allow access to		Allow access to
Glowing touch		Gravity well
Pulsar		Gravitic Emanation

 

As you can see, it would be a blend of control and support.  I thought giving access to the 2 additional powers like one nova and dwarf get would fit nicely.

 

I don't know how feasible this would be coding or what fx would be used for the new form.  I don't see much if any power creep (please point it out if you see it).  Any and all feedback is appreciated. 

 

 

 

 

[JasperStone]

Interesting.

aren't the number of slots baked in?

[ranagrande]

Honestly, I'd rather just have kheldians be allowed to take regular APPs, to more closely mirror VEATs who are allowed to take PPPs.

[TheZag]

You asked to point out any power creep if we see it so ill mention what i see.

 

A new form with 4 powers means that pick would give you 4 extra slots.  The next 2 powers are a wild card slot and the last 2 powers are both 2 wild card slots.  You will end up with 6 more slots than kheldians currently have if you select all the powers.  You could skip the new form and the powers at 35 38 41 and 44 could just be 4 slots and 2 bonus slots to place anywhere instead of the first slot being locked to its power.

 

Kheldians are kinda a mess when it comes to the amount of powers they have and there are several situations where a power is taken and left as 1 slot and never used.  Being able to shift slots from unused power picks into useful abilities would be power creep.  That doesnt make it a good or a bad thing though,  just that it would exist.  Maybe it would be the boost that kheldians need to see a bit more game time.  I rarely see any as things are now.

 

From a technical standpoint,  there is nothing in the game currently that lets you get a bonus slot.  I heard the retail devs tried a bonus slot back in the pay to win days and it screwed with the game engine in new and exciting ways to the point that they gave up on the money and scrapped the idea.  The current devs have shown ability to make the previously impossible into a reality so maybe this wouldnt be a problem.

 

[Rudra]

In addition to what @TheZag said, making a new APP that granted additional slots to Kheldians would cause an uproar among the players who would then demand they get access to the same APP so they can get more slots for other ATs.

[0th Power]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

In addition to what @TheZag said, making a new APP that granted additional slots to Kheldians would cause an uproar among the players who would then demand they get access to the same APP so they can get more slots for other ATs.

 

I can't see the backlash being that great.  To me, that would come off aps whiney and would be easy to dismiss.  Khelds are the only ATs truly starved for slots.  Giving Khelds slots (if its a possibility) would bring them inline with other ATs.  Adding slot to other ATs would definitely be some major power creep.  

 

Thank you for the feedback.

[honoroit]

woah there, kupo. 

more slots is a direct power increase, and khelds get free powers already, or they used to...

 

that could get crazy fast.  

 

the joy/annoy of h/veats is the sacrifice across wide option.

 

its especially relevent on pb/ws - where full slotted humey and forms would mean an explosion of dps that is achieved by watching the cooldowns, and using them ALL at maxxed efficiency.

 

imo, that would be obscene power leap, versus creep.

 

in simplest terms, itd make them higher level.

Edited June 7, 2023 by honoroit

[biostem]

What I'd rather see is a "regular" APP for Kheldians, which granted a status protection power for their human form, (so perma-lightform  or dwarf aren't your only options), and perhaps a team buff, enemy debuff, etc.

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, 0th Power said:

 

I can't see the backlash being that great.  To me, that would come off aps whiney and would be easy to dismiss. 

 

 

... you've read the forums and read game chat, right...  😉

 

I *want* to say something with slots had been played with at some point and broke things, but that's really hazy memory.

[biostem]

7 hours ago, honoroit said:

khelds get free powers already, or they used to...

They still do.  PBs get their version of fly, hover, and the new "evasive maneuvers" toggle, while WSs get teleport, recall target, and fold space.

[Major_Decoy]

I don't see what makes this an Ancillary Power Pool rather than just giving Kheldians more options for their existing power sets.

[honoroit]

10 minutes ago, biostem said:

They still do.  PBs get their version of fly, hover, and the new "evasive maneuvers" toggle, while WSs get teleport, recall target, and fold space.

that in an of itself is 'free levels' slot wise, theyre set bonuses, various uniques, and the utility of the power aside.

 

point being, extra slots is bonus stats and effects.

 

its probably inwise to take away or diminish the h/veat choices made, as it was/is supposed to represent an experienced player who got to 50 now having a very open, amd unique, class to play.

 

a fortunata kicks ass and is like a mobile fortress for a team, surveillance, the armors again and some wierd stuff make soldiers interesting too.

 

pb/ws are shape shifters! the amount range they bring as reactive play is probably unmatched. light form, novas, and even a heal on the pb.

 

they do not been shadpw levels in balancing, they may need brought in line with value normalization.

 

in my opiniom, kupo.

[Rudra]

35 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... you've read the forums and read game chat, right...  😉

 

I *want* to say something with slots had been played with at some point and broke things, but that's really hazy memory.

The Live devs tried adding a 7th slot, I think as a purchasable, but that broke the game hard. So they dumped it. Not sure about adding more slots as long as it stayed at 6 or less though.

 

15 minutes ago, honoroit said:

that in an of itself is 'free levels' slot wise, theyre set bonuses, various uniques, and the utility of the power aside.

 

point being, extra slots is bonus stats and effects.

 

its probably inwise to take away or diminish the h/veat choices made, as it was/is supposed to represent an experienced player who got to 50 now having a very open, amd unique, class to play.

 

a fortunata kicks ass and is like a mobile fortress for a team, surveillance, the armors again and some wierd stuff make soldiers interesting too.

 

pb/ws are shape shifters! the amount range they bring as reactive play is probably unmatched. light form, novas, and even a heal on the pb.

 

they do not been shadpw levels in balancing, they may need brought in line with value normalization.

 

in my opiniom, kupo.

I think that is part of the complaint. Non-HEATs have to use power slots to get those same powers, and I know very few people who slot Fly or Teleport past the basic slot they come with. Maybe even Fold Space. So those slots that could have been assigned to those powers are available for other powers on other ATs, but Kheldians get additional powers that eat slots as well since they don't need to use a power slot to be able to fly or teleport. Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with you. It is just my take on the situation from what I've heard from Kheldian players and read on the forums.

 

Edit: I am in favor of Kheldians getting access to APPs. Just not more slots.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Rudra

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit: I am in favor of Kheldians getting access to APPs. Just not more slots.

 

Well, here's the thing with APPs - They're meant to add abilities the base classes don't have.

 

For instance, shields on non-armored characters, melee attacks, holds/immobs/control and ranged attacks on melee characters, pets on non pet classes (if you go with patron pools.) HEATs already have a mix of all those things - ranged, melee, shields, control. So what would be *in* an APP for a HEAT they wouldn't have a (better) version of already just by dint of it being in a primary/secondary - that would also fit in with Khelds being a design tied to their own lore (the "Epic" in "Epic AT?")

[biostem]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

those slots that could have been assigned to those powers are available for other powers on other ATs, but Kheldians get additional powers that eat slots as well since they don't need to use a power slot to be able to fly or teleport.

Can you clarify what you mean, here - every power comes with 1 free slot.  Especially in the case of Nova & Dwarf, Kheldians end up with way more slots, (in total), than other ATs.  The only "issue", if you even want to call it that, is that they cannot place those extra free slots in their other powers.  In that case, the only "gimme" I could see would be to allow Kheldians to opt out of those free powers and instead get 1 slot that they can place elsewhere.  Even then, it'd still give them more total slots than other ATs get PLUS the ability to place them wherever they wanted...

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

 

Well, here's the thing with APPs - They're meant to add abilities the base classes don't have.

 

For instance, shields on non-armored characters, melee attacks, holds/immobs/control and ranged attacks on melee characters, pets on non pet classes (if you go with patron pools.) HEATs already have a mix of all those things - ranged, melee, shields, control. So what would be *in* an APP for a HEAT they wouldn't have a (better) version of already just by dint of it being in a primary/secondary - that would also fit in with Khelds being a design tied to their own lore (the "Epic" in "Epic AT?")

There are players that want access to Kheldians that are not limited to just their current primary and secondary. Granting Kheldians access to APPs, but not PPPs since VEATs don't get access to APPs, would grant Kheldian players the ability to add in fire, dark, or other attacks the base AT lacks even if they are not equal to their existing abilities.

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

So what would be *in* an APP for a HEAT they wouldn't have a (better) version of already just by dint of it being in a primary/secondary - that would also fit in with Khelds being a design tied to their own lore (the "Epic" in "Epic AT?")

I'd go with:

 

> Human-form-only status protection power

> Team buffs

> Enemy debuffs

>Ally rez power

 

 

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Can you clarify what you mean, here - every power comes with 1 free slot.  Especially in the case of Nova & Dwarf, Kheldians end up with way more slots, (in total), than other ATs.  The only "issue", if you even want to call it that, is that they cannot place those extra free slots in their other powers.  In that case, the only "gimme" I could see would be to allow Kheldians to opt out of those free powers and instead get 1 slot that they can place elsewhere.  Even then, it'd still give them more total slots than other ATs get PLUS the ability to place them wherever they wanted...

What I mean is that when a Kheldian character is made, that character gets the Fly power or the Teleport power for free. At level 4, when non-Kheldian ATs can get Fly or Teleport, and they choose Fly or Teleport, that Kheldian is grabbing another of their powers from their very robust list of powers. Yes, all powers come with that 1 slot free, but the non-Kheldian AT now has a power that doesn't really need any additonal slots to be effective, so can assign any additional slots elsewhere, whereas the Kheldian has another power that most likely needs to be slotted with additional slots.

 

Edit: Basically, the over-abundance of powers Kheldians wind up with makes it seem like they are suffering from a lack of slots. However, as you pointed out, the opposite is true.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Rudra

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Yes, all powers come with that 1 slot free, but the non-Kheldian AT now has a power that doesn't really need any additonal slots to be effective, so can assign any additional slots elsewhere, whereas the Kheldian has another power that most likely needs to be slotted with additional slots.

Which powers are you talking about?  The Kheldian no more needs additional slots in, for instance, their version of hover or fly, than any other AT does.  Isn't it unreasonable for a Kheld player to expect to be able to 6-slot all their primary and secondary powers?

[Greycat]

Just now, Rudra said:

There are players that want access to Kheldians that are not limited to just their current primary and secondary. Granting Kheldians access to APPs, but not PPPs since VEATs don't get access to APPs, would grant Kheldian players the ability to add in fire, dark, or other attacks the base AT lacks even if they are not equal to their existing abilities.

 

... which goes back to "what do they lack?"

Shields? Check.
Ranged attacks? Check. Double-check if you have Nova.

Melee? Check. Double if you have dwarf.

Control? Yep.

Pets? Yep.

Self-heals? Yep.

Ranged heal? Peacebringer.

Debuffs? Every PB attack does -Def. Warshades? Slow/-rech.

 

Want more DEF or RES? We've already got those in existing non-APP pools.

More attacks? Already exist in pools, both ranged and melee.

Self and party buffs? In pools.

Want certain effects? There's probably something slottable that does it, if Interface doesn't.

 

So... again, given APPs are there to fill in gaps in a primary/secondary, as mentioned, and Khelds don't really have those gaps existing... what should be in the APPs?

[Rudra]

Side rant: I don't know what I am doing wrong. I don't understand why I can't be understood.

 

Back to thread:

 

1 minute ago, biostem said:

Which powers are you talking about?  The Kheldian no more needs additional slots in, for instance, their version of hover or fly, than any other AT does.  Isn't it unreasonable for a Kheld player to expect to be able to 6-slot all their primary and secondary powers?

What I am saying is that non-Kheldian ATs get 67 enhancement slots to assign to their 24 powers. Kheldians get those same 67 enhancement slots, and their choice of 24 powers, plus their inherent powers that the other ATs have to use up power slots to get.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... which goes back to "what do they lack?"

Shields? Check.
Ranged attacks? Check. Double-check if you have Nova.

Melee? Check. Double if you have dwarf.

Control? Yep.

Pets? Yep.

Self-heals? Yep.

Ranged heal? Peacebringer.

Debuffs? Every PB attack does -Def. Warshades? Slow/-rech.

 

Want more DEF or RES? We've already got those in existing non-APP pools.

More attacks? Already exist in pools, both ranged and melee.

Self and party buffs? In pools.

Want certain effects? There's probably something slottable that does it, if Interface doesn't.

 

So... again, given APPs are there to fill in gaps in a primary/secondary, as mentioned, and Khelds don't really have those gaps existing... what should be in the APPs?

It's specifically the fire effect, dark effect, other effect that I have seen asked for on the forums with the requests for non-Kheldian Kheldians.

[biostem]

Just now, Rudra said:

What I am saying is that non-Kheldian ATs get 67 enhancement slots to assign to their 24 powers. Kheldians get those same 67 enhancement slots, and their choice of 24 powers, plus their inherent powers that the other ATs have to use up power slots to get.

I don't think you're counting all the extra slots they get from the free powers and if they take Nova & Dwarf, not to mention their primary & secondary set having more powers in total than any regular ATs, while still being able to take regular power pools...

[Rudra]

Just now, biostem said:

I don't think you're counting all the extra slots they get from the free powers and if they take Nova & Dwarf, not to mention their primary & secondary set having more powers in total than any regular ATs, while still being able to take regular power pools...

That would be because I don't play them, so I don't know how those work.

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

I'd go with:

 

> Human-form-only status protection power

> Team buffs

> Enemy debuffs

>Ally rez power

 

 

 

Human form only status protection:

- Pool - Acrobatics. Weak, but it's there. And the one I can't think of the name of in Sorcery... think it's sorc.

- Eclipse.

- Light form.

 

Team buffs:

- PB, at least, has a heal.

-Other buffs are available in pools already (Medicine, for instance, or Sorcery.)

 

Enemy debuffs:

- Every PB attack does -def

- Every WS attack does slow and -rech.

(And while they're not "debuffs," there's control as well.)

- While not available early game, quite a bit in Interface that affects every attack.

 

Ally rez:

Not covered. But not a lot to build an APP around...

 

 

(And just as an overall note, no, I'm not actually arguing "No, they shouldn't get them," but "This is what APPs do - it's already either built in to khelds or available as a pool, so what would they *have?*)