Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[wjrasmussen]

2 minutes ago, Herotu said:

I have to agree with the OP.

 

Why bother with the "take 2 extraneous powers" thing?

What's the point in it?

What does it do for you?

How does it make the game better?

 

It could just say, "this power costs 3 points" instead. Now, I'm not suggesting that be a thing, but it's effectively what the OP is stating. 

I don't want to save two points, I hardly ever get a character to 50, but I do think it's ... it's a throwback to a different time. A time before the fitness pool became inherent - that was the crossing of the Rubicon. It meant the game was significantly easier - a conscious choice by the developers: 4 free points.

 

Do I want that to be exaccerbated? I don't think so. Perhaps they could remove a point from the two of the times you get 3 per level, but for that we get to choose whatever pool power with no pre-requirements? I haven't looked at the implications of that, it's just an idea.

 

 

[Nyghtmaire]

I’ve read the entire thread and been mostly impressed with the arguments for and against. My takeaway? F*** it, I’d be cooler to do away with at least boxing/kick as a prerequisite. Maybe Tough should be the lone prerequisite for Weave, or maybe have no prerequisites in the pool. I don’t care. It’s a superhero game. Power Creep be damned (and my builds always seem to be slot-starved anyways). 

[Herotu]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:30 AM, honoroit said:

inherent fighting pool, this one has it. just wanna build flexible, not pattern 3x choices to it, and unbar 'kick'.

 

If we're getting F2P vendor/Transact 4 Victory who hands out 3 attacks ... why not inherent fighting?

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, Herotu said:

If we're getting F2P vendor/Transact 4 Victory who hands out 3 attacks ... why not inherent fighting?

Those four attacks of which only three can be taken with or without origin bonus have no relevance to the discussion.

[wjrasmussen]

21 minutes ago, Herotu said:

If we're getting F2P vendor/Transact 4 Victory who hands out 3 attacks ... why not inherent fighting?

Let's get rid of the free fitness while we are at it.  Let's go the other direction and make it harder for you?

 

Or,

Why have any restrictions at all?  Pick and choose any power in any pool at any time.  It must be a good thing right?

[Herotu]

6 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

Let's get rid of the free fitness while we are at it.  Let's go the other direction and make it harder for you?

 

Or,

Why have any restrictions at all?  Pick and choose any power in any pool at any time.  It must be a good thing right?

Are you just trying to rile people? 

[wjrasmussen]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

Are you just trying to rile people? 

No.  Trying to hit back a little bit.  All the this improves the game nonsense is just something that needs to be pushed back against.  It changes the game, doesn't make it better.

 

What the fuck, lets just toss the game.  Make it dumb down as possible so all the stupid stuff is removed.  Get rid of influence as well and just given everyone enhancements at will.  Who needs to level?  That is a waste too, so insta-level.  JFC, you people need everything.

 

Perhaps it is time to move on from this game.

[JasperStone]

2 hours ago, wjrasmussen said:

Let's get rid of the free fitness while we are at it.  Let's go the other direction and make it harder for you?

 

Or,

Why have any restrictions at all?  Pick and choose any power in any pool at any time.  It must be a good thing right?

Then we would be right back where we were during Live when it wasn't

...

and  I would be ok with that.

Edited June 30, 2023 by JasperStone
inserted "we"

[honoroit]

2 hours ago, wjrasmussen said:

Let's get rid of the free fitness while we are at it.  Let's go the other direction and make it harder for you?

 

Or,

Why have any restrictions at all?  Pick and choose any power in any pool at any time.  It must be a good thing right?

 

some people here are just generally unpleasant!

 

they decry qol for *i dont want to take kick and unbar it, and my build variety explodes with a new travel power, a skippable, or something else!* as dangerous, probably sinister/left handed power creep....

 

but among the same folks wants for aim instead of beanbag on 'Assault Rofl' set (and complaining about my posts until some cooperative mod clips them silently) with reasoning of *no one wants beanbag*, ignoring balancing/set diversity entirely, or passing creep as 'lateral expansion' for this or things like reworking a brute's inherent (which I am also all for exploring!).

 

look, thunderspy is silly. its silly because 1) I'm used to homecoming, and 2) homecoming doesnt take the piss with balance.  

 

(2) is a good thing, but important too is player enjoyment and buildcraft flex over a period of several years of play.

 

it would be FUN, yes, heavens forbid FUN, for me (and others, and you conservator detractor) to not have to unbar kick/punch.

 

in a smaller way, like fitness IS FUN as inherent - because it frees up 3x slots.

 

its the dark controller who FINALLY has a shot of 'black hole', the stingy tight builder (me) who NEVER has space for a travel power...

 

its fun, you monsters! its supposed to be, kupo.

 

its supposed to get better. it does, by and large. but not by standing still. thats decay, and boredom resultant - typically and increasingly over time.

 

-- honoroit, the cultist

Edited June 30, 2023 by honoroit

[Rudra]

42 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

some people here are just generally unpleasant!

 

they decry qol for *i dont want to take kick and unbar it, and my build variety explodes with a new travel power, a skippable, or something else!* as dangerous, probably sinister/left handed power creep....

 

but among the same folks wants for aim instead of beanbag on 'Assault Rofl' set (and complaining about my posts until some cooperative mod clips them silently) with reasoning of *no one wants beanbag*, ignoring balancing/set diversity entirely, or passing creep as 'lateral expansion' for this or things like reworking a brute's inherent (which I am also all for exploring!).

 

look, thunderspy is silly. its silly because 1) I'm used to homecoming, and 2) homecoming doesnt take the piss with balance.  

 

(2) is a good thing, but important too is player enjoyment and buildcraft flex over a period of several years of play.

 

it would be FUN, yes, heavens forbid FUN, for me (and others, and you conservator detractor) to not have to unbar kick/punch.

 

in a smaller way, like fitness IS FUN as inherent - because it frees up 3x slots.

 

its the dark controller who FINALLY has a shot of 'black hole', the stingy tight builder (me) who NEVER has space for a travel power...

 

its fun, you monsters! its supposed to be, kupo.

 

its supposed to get better. it does, by and large. but not by standing still. thats decay, and boredom resultant - typically and increasingly over time.

 

-- honoroit, the cultist

Maybe this will help:

 

Power Creep: A change to the game that causes the game to get easier or makes built characters more powerful without a corresponding increase in difficulty to compensate.

Lateral Expansion: A change to the game that adds new options, such as a new power set, mission, or other content; that opens up new avenues of play without making the game easier or making built characters more powerful.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to remove extraneous "way" and "building".

[honoroit]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Maybe this will help:

 

Power Creep: A change to the game that causes the game to get easier or makes built characters more powerful without a corresponding increase in difficulty to compensate.

Lateral Expansion: A change to the game that adds new options, such as a new power set, mission, or other content; that opens up new avenues of play without making the game easier or making built characters more powerful.

 

right! so removing pre-reqs on tough/weave adds new options by giving you back what barring with kick/punch takes away, horray, kupo!

 

(giving brutes stacking anything.new w/ fury makes them more powerful - on one hand, options open, like they did with fitness, on the other, new mechanic that buffs existing stats. minutia here is pedantic, but recharge improve limiting by end as a fixed resource is valid during lvling on the brute rage thing.  that all aside, they're both proposed change, and what comes with.)

Edited June 30, 2023 by honoroit

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, honoroit said:

right! so removing pre-reqs on tough/weave adds new options by giving you back what barring with kick/punch takes away, horray, kupo!

It also makes those characters more powerful by being able to choose a different power that further bolsters their combat ability. Particularly in the case of melee ATs since they would now be free to use that spot for added defense, such as from the Concealment pool. That makes it power creep, not lateral expansion. And making the Fighting pool inherent would be even more power creep because now there is an entire pool players could choose from to replace the Fighting pool they were so adamant about taking before, further enabling more powerful characters. Without the game getting any more difficult to compensate for either result.

 

Edit: Any time a change is made or would be made to free up power slots, that is power creep because it directly leads to more optimized builds in a game not designed for such optimized builds. Look at the calls for the Hard Mode content. Power creep built up to the point that playing at +4/x8 was no longer the accomplishments of uber-players, but is now the expectation for all characters.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Rudra

[honoroit]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It also makes those characters more powerful by being able to choose a different power that further bolsters their combat ability. Particularly in the case of melee ATs since they would now be free to use that spot for added defense, such as from the Concealment pool. That makes it power creep, not lateral expansion. And making the Fighting pool inherent would be even more power creep because now there is an entire pool players could choose from to replace the Fighting pool they were so adamant about taking before, further enabling more powerful characters. Without the game getting any more difficult to compensate for either result.

 

im for just removing the pre-req, just like thunderspy did in this case.  keep the level requirement.  and, you can only have so many powerpools in total opened.

 

so a lot of people would pick a skippable in primary/2ndary, or flesh another pool.

 

you might see a melee granting you invis 😉

 

 

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, honoroit said:

 

im for just removing the pre-req, just like thunderspy did in this case.  keep the level requirement.  and, you can only have so many powerpools in total opened.

 

so a lot of people would pick a skippable in primary/2ndary, or flesh another pool.

 

you might see a melee granting you invis 😉

 

 

I already see melees granting others invis'. I see it every time I play my Dark/Dark Scrapper. Because I don't chase the Holy Quad. (Yes, I use parts of the Holy Quad. Rather frequently. I take the Fighting pool on all my characters. Multiple characters include Boxing or Kick as part of their melee attack chain. I even have one character that has both Boxing and Kick, and will eventually get Cross Punch when I level high enough to fit it in. Several of my characters also take the Leadership pool. [Edit: Particularly, all of my MMs take the Leadership pool.]) However, the way I read the OP, it is about making it possible to keep chasing the Holy Quad while also not being constrained by chasing the Holy Quad.

 

If players want to chase the Holy Quad? Be my guest. Play the game how you want. However, I am against making it even easier to optimize characters by enabling them to chase the Holy Quad while being able to only get those powers from it that directly benefits their play style without consequence or consideration for how much it further breaks down what game balance we have left.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Rudra

[Etched]

I hate to break this for anyone who thinks the devs are goin to change the fightin pool so you can get weave before takin punch/kick.

Its not goin to happen anymore then the devs puttin lights on the warehouse windows in the bases.

 

Thinkin you are goin to convince them is purely laughable.  

 

The devs are doin their best to make Homecomin run as smooth as possible and really don't need to be side tracked by off the wall questions that the asker should know isn't goin to happen.

 

If you are havin that much trouble gettin your toon to survive then work harder and quit askin the devs to change something to suit you. It gets old and boring. 

 

Be thankful you get to play at all.

I know I am.

 

@Etched

[Sakura Tenshi]

It's a topic that's been beaten to death, but I just wanna give my hot take: I don't mind tough and weave being where they are as they are. I just want the attacks to be freely available and improved/alt animations for punch and kick.

 

Edit: man, I was expecting thumbs down. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who loves the idea of a "Brawl: the full chain" for those times you want to say 'screw super powers, I'm punching you in the face!'

Edited July 1, 2023 by Sakura Tenshi

[wjrasmussen]

3 hours ago, honoroit said:

 

some people here are just generally unpleasant!

 

they decry qol for *i dont want to take kick and unbar it, and my build variety explodes with a new travel power, a skippable, or something else!* as dangerous, probably sinister/left handed power creep....

 

but among the same folks wants for aim instead of beanbag on 'Assault Rofl' set (and complaining about my posts until some cooperative mod clips them silently) with reasoning of *no one wants beanbag*, ignoring balancing/set diversity entirely, or passing creep as 'lateral expansion' for this or things like reworking a brute's inherent (which I am also all for exploring!).

 

look, thunderspy is silly. its silly because 1) I'm used to homecoming, and 2) homecoming doesnt take the piss with balance.  

 

(2) is a good thing, but important too is player enjoyment and buildcraft flex over a period of several years of play.

 

it would be FUN, yes, heavens forbid FUN, for me (and others, and you conservator detractor) to not have to unbar kick/punch.

 

in a smaller way, like fitness IS FUN as inherent - because it frees up 3x slots.

 

its the dark controller who FINALLY has a shot of 'black hole', the stingy tight builder (me) who NEVER has space for a travel power...

 

its fun, you monsters! its supposed to be, kupo.

 

its supposed to get better. it does, by and large. but not by standing still. thats decay, and boredom resultant - typically and increasingly over time.

 

-- honoroit, the cultist

If you do the math, there are fewer options.

[tidge]

TL;DR: I don't think the case to make the OP change is well-motivated (beyond wanting to get something for less).

 

Something similar was written earlier in the thread (in different ways) that later pool picks are good because there is an additional cost (the prerequisite) picks... and just as later powers in a primary/secondary tend to get "better"(kk, maybe not T9 armors) the investment in a power pool is part of the price of admission. I agree that (by themselves) only Boxing (or Kick) is somewhat of a stinker attack. At least there is synergy from biking both of them, unlike some other pools (ehem: Provoke/Pacify/intimidate, pick any two to get the good stuff).

 

Writing only for myself: The lowering of the levels for which powers are available has done two things (for my play experience)

• I have fewer opportunities to fit a "shore up weaknesses" choice like the Fighting pool (as early as I used to)
• I get the accesses to the set-defining powers earlier, so I don't feel like I need to shore up weaknesses so early.

If the fitness pool was not inherent, I can guarantee almost every one of my builds would be trying to get to Stamina in ASAP... I write this with certainty because hat is how it was on Live (for me). Inherent Fitness (as well as lowering he level to be able to take a true travel power) were honest-to-RNGesus quality-of-life changes

 

Another personal comment: I rarely take either Tough or Weave strictly for their benefits as a toggle, thanks to Global pieces. I have quite a few builds that use Tough and/or Weave only as mules. As things are now, 100% of my builds use globals (or 120s %procs) in Health and Stamina. If I had an inherent Fighting pool, I'd dump globals in it as well.... just as I do with my auto resist/defense powers on AT which have those. [IMO The game's QoL would severely diminish without Globals and %procs, I don't feel like engaging with a discussion about how changing Globals is the key to getting an inherent Fighting pool... let's just say I don't feel like I need an ever-changing series of cascading changes to have to skip Boxing and Tough when I can just pick a character that gets similar powers through a primary or secondary]

[Raikao]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:02 AM, Etched said:

I hate to break this for anyone who thinks the devs are goin to change the fightin pool so you can get weave before takin punch/kick.

Its not goin to happen anymore then the devs puttin lights on the warehouse windows in the bases.

 

Thinkin you are goin to convince them is purely laughable.  

 

The devs are doin their best to make Homecomin run as smooth as possible and really don't need to be side tracked by off the wall questions that the asker should know isn't goin to happen.

 

If you are havin that much trouble gettin your toon to survive then work harder and quit askin the devs to change something to suit you. It gets old and boring. 

 

Be thankful you get to play at all.

I know I am.

 

@Etched

 

Then remove the Suggestions area from the forums.

 

This take is mental beyond belief. You don't speak for the devs either. Unless there is a dev post explaining a "this is never happening" stance, this is not some "over and done with" discussion. Just because a few people are so much against the idea they get emotional about it.

 

All in the pursuit of some nebulous concept of balance, which applies to some things, but not to others and is presented as this unchanging fact. Case in point: You claiming it'll never happen.

 

I can only second what some others have said: This is one good change I'd like to see on HC. I don't want to play on other servers who have implemented this, because most of their other changes are shit and have warped the game too much.

 

But this ain't it chief.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Raikao

[laudwic]

On 6/22/2023 at 3:52 PM, TheZag said:

Most players take a travel power in their build.  Using that as a requirement is almost the same as having no requirement for weave.  I have 1 build on 1 character that doesnt have a travel power.

 

Removing the requirements from any pool opens the door for people to ask for more pools to get the same treatment.  Its called power creep because it happens slowly over time.  Before you realize,  everyone will get access to every power at lvl 1,  there will be a purple enhancement for free in every slot and accolade powers will cost 500 inf at the transact 4 victory store.  Its not as ridiculous as it sounds when you scroll back through the suggestion forum and it starts with just a little power creep being ok.

 

 

Honestly, unless I'm delving into the Sorcery Pool, I don't generally bother taking a travel power.  You can buy a Jet Pack relatively inexpensively (5k inf for 30 minutes - once you have a lvl 50 character that is nothing)  Your a little slower getting to mission entrances but, otherwise, I would rather use the power slot elsewhere even for powers that I rarely use.  The only real problem is if you are doing incredibly high end challenges that turn off purchased powers.  Since I don't do that, I generally don't care.

 

With the removal of having to have Tier 1 and 2 powers, the requirement for taking either punch or kick should remain if you want tough and weave.

 

(If you want to talk power creep, the IO system is a main culprit.  Just look at dominators.  You can reliably get permadom in the 40s or earlier.  That guarantees 2x magnitude to all your hold, imm, confuse, stun, ect. and your essentially immune to the same.  Plus a full endurance bar recharge when the domination bar holds up.)

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Raikao said:

 

Then remove the Suggestions area from the forums.

 

This take is mental beyond belief. You don't speak for the devs either. Unless there is a dev post explaining a "this is never happening" stance, this is not some "over and done with" discussion. Just because a few people are so much against the idea they get emotional about it.

 

All in the pursuit of some nebulous concept of balance, which applies to some things, but not to others and is presented as this unchanging fact. Case in point: You claiming it'll never happen.

 

I can only second what some others have said: This is one good change I'd like to see on HC. I don't want to play on other servers who have implemented this, because most of their other changes are shit and have warped the game too much.

 

But this ain't it chief.

Wow, you're intent on making new friends, eh?

[Raikao]

4 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Wow, you're intent on making new friends, eh?

 

You're not trying to spin this on me are you? Have you read the threads about this? How much vitriol there is? What?

 

Have you read the rules that state things like "Assume good intent?" 

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 minutes ago, Raikao said:

Have you read the rules that state things like "Assume good intent?" 

Yes. We have read the rules.

 

Here's another post, by a moderator:
 

“Don’t leave your child unattended.” 

In short, any suggestion made in this forum will be thoroughly examined by all of us, changed, ripped up, and added-on to until it’s possible that the resulting idea doesn’t resemble what you suggested in the first place. You need to allow others to add more consideration to your idea. If you find yourself having a problem with this, a good idea may be running your initial idea by friends first for feedback before sharing it here.

 

Just FYI, we're allowed to disagree with your suggestion. We're allowed to say why we disagree. In short: PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOUR SUGGESTION!

[SwitchFade]

27 minutes ago, Raikao said:

 

You're not trying to spin this on me are you? Have you read the threads about this? How much vitriol there is? What?

 

Have you read the rules that state things like "Assume good intent?" 

There's no spin, you typed what you typed. In a couple threads.

 

If the carebears were here, they would be sad panda bears.

[Raikao]

35 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yes. We have read the rules.

 

Here's another post, by a moderator:
 

“Don’t leave your child unattended.” 

In short, any suggestion made in this forum will be thoroughly examined by all of us, changed, ripped up, and added-on to until it’s possible that the resulting idea doesn’t resemble what you suggested in the first place. You need to allow others to add more consideration to your idea. If you find yourself having a problem with this, a good idea may be running your initial idea by friends first for feedback before sharing it here.

 

Just FYI, we're allowed to disagree with your suggestion. We're allowed to say why we disagree. In short: PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOUR SUGGESTION!

Yes, so disagree and tell me why. I don't have a problem with that.

 

I have a problem with "lol never gonna happen, ratio'd, take the L, bye".