Making the "Weave" power more accessible

[Aracknight]

Just now, Rudra said:

You mean this as a "they can't possibly agree to this" defense, but I can live with it. Easily. You should brace for the rest of the community though.

 

Don't infer or assume you know what I mean.  Given how vehemently you and your cadre of  banner waving balance and spirit of the devs cadre disapprove of every idea you dont like as if its your goddamn profession.  You all squat in this forum and impose your will, in the name of balance, on anything you dont collectively approve of, with insight you dont have, and then have the audacity to tell me that 2 powers giving more than 3 powers is fair and balanced and fine?  

 

Its funny, but i read somewhere that the boards are not the game, and most dont even read them.  I wonder how many people would just shrug, break out mids, and figure it the fuck out.

 

I'm not often drive away from things i enjoy.  I enjoy city of heroes.  Today, im privately grateful that it shutting down for a decade delayed its descent into the toxic land you, and people like you, who rise up to battle, like some fucking crusade, because some gamer doesnt know how wrong they are on the internet. 

 

You don't disagree with people, you try to fucking *correct* them.

 

 

 

[Ston]

14 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

So, two tiny powers that get defense bonuses in a nondefense based set provide more defense than three powers chosen from a pool that is also not focused on defense is balanced, is this your position?

 

Because people, despite your assertation, take these powers not only for defense, but for set bonuses that those powers take.

 

 

I'll tell ya what fam, make Travel powers only take Travel sets, and not allow them to take defense sets/procs anymore, since that isn't their focus anyway and i will shut the fuck up about the fighting pool forever.

 

My melee characters need boxing & kick to boost cross punch. They’re very valuable in those builds. The tohit/damage/recharge they give are really useful.

 

But I wouldn’t care if i couldn’t put LotG in CJ. I take it for the jump speed + jump control.

 

This change is never going to happen anyway. It’s been requested for years. 

[MoonSheep]

22 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

 

Really?

 

*Looks at allllllll my alts on multiple accounts without weave*

 

Wonder what I've been doing with those incarnated 50s, then.

 

a lot of people rely on softcap builds posted by experienced players on the forum, copy it line for line then facetank every mob they come across without thinking about strategy, positioning etc

 

 all the gear no idea is the FOTM lately

[honoroit]

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

I agree that individually,  boxing and kick are stinkers, but the pool as a whole is quite strong.  Taking a power that people consider a zero so they can get 2 powers that are 100s is the cost.  If they were immediately available then their buff would probably be reduced by about 1/3.  Even in this case it would be a buff boxing and kick situation,  not a make tough and weave free situation. 

 

Other pool powers did get requirement adjustments but it wasnt due to them being poor design choices.  Those requirements were put in place to make people log in more and level up more slowly so they would keep paying their monthly fees.  Monthly subscriptions are gone now and several of the systems put in place to milk them have been relaxed or removed.  Not everything can become free or instant though or there would be no sense to play the game. Characters gaining mastery over pool powers by first learning the easy stuff before getting the good stuff isnt likely to be changing.

 

 

i think another implementation, thunderspy, kept the level reqs, but removed the prereqs.

 

a fish is a fish, no matter how you skin it, but theres options in that.

Edited June 23, 2023 by honoroit

[Aracknight]

While politely put, it's still sort of "if you don't like it, leave.  And truthfully, I'm considering it.

[biostem]

Give the fighting pool a generic rock throw ranged attack that deals minor smashing damage, so those of us not wanting to enter melee range have that choice.  Otherwise, I am fine with the prerequisite...

[Ston]

21 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

While politely put, it's still sort of "if you don't like it, leave.  And truthfully, I'm considering it.

 

Honestly, I think your best bet is requesting a new power pool with t1/t2 powers that you find valuable.

 

It will probably be too much work to overhaul the Fighting pool because that would mean all the other pools would have to follow. It’s probably too specific to be made an inherent like Fitness.

 

I also think adding any kind of travel or defense bonuses to boxing/kick is a no-go since it’s a hard cottage rule violation. 

 

I can see why you’d want a new pool that has Resist & Defense powers available without needing “useless” power picks, so I would spend your effort requesting something like that (i think i’ve seen a few examples suggested already, i can link those here later.

 

The issue is that many builds put a lot of value on boxing & kick, so you won’t have an easy time overhauling the whole thing like this.

[Aracknight]

No one asked for an overhaul, at least I didn't.  I think all anyone wants is to ditch the pre requisite for the third power which has now already been done for all but four power pools.

[megaericzero]

5 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

No one asked for an overhaul, at least I didn't.  I think all anyone wants is to ditch the pre requisite for the third power which has now already been done for all but four power pools.

 

Would that be because the tier three powers are all travel powers except for those four?

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Aracknight said:

2 powers gives more def bonus than 3 from fighting to get Weave.

 

The net Defense is identical.  CJ and Hover grant 1.875% (scrapper) Defense (All), not 1.88%.

[Aracknight]

14 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

The net Defense is identical.  CJ and Hover grant 1.875% (scrapper) Defense (All), not 1.88%.

My mids rounded it I guess.

[Captain Fabulous]

2 hours ago, Aracknight said:

 

Don't infer or assume you know what I mean.  Given how vehemently you and your cadre of  banner waving balance and spirit of the devs cadre disapprove of every idea you dont like as if its your goddamn profession.  You all squat in this forum and impose your will, in the name of balance, on anything you dont collectively approve of, with insight you dont have, and then have the audacity to tell me that 2 powers giving more than 3 powers is fair and balanced and fine?  

 

Its funny, but i read somewhere that the boards are not the game, and most dont even read them.  I wonder how many people would just shrug, break out mids, and figure it the fuck out.

 

I'm not often drive away from things i enjoy.  I enjoy city of heroes.  Today, im privately grateful that it shutting down for a decade delayed its descent into the toxic land you, and people like you, who rise up to battle, like some fucking crusade, because some gamer doesnt know how wrong they are on the internet. 

 

You don't disagree with people, you try to fucking *correct* them.

 

 

 

PREACH!

[KaizenSoze]

I am fine with Boxing and Kick being removed as requirements to get to weave.

 

As for the power creep concerns. That horse done got out of the barn, run around the pasture for hours, then run around some more, and only returned to the barn for a nap, before the devs even considered fixing the barn door. Do you think the devs care that much about power creep with the power availability changes in page five?

[FupDup]

8 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

I am fine with Boxing and Kick being removed as requirements to get to weave.

 

As for the power creep concerns. That horse done got out of the barn, run around the pasture for hours, then run around some more, and only returned to the barn for a nap, before the devs even considered fixing the barn door. Do you think the devs care that much about power creep with the power availability changes in page five?

Two counterpoints: 

 

1. Previous power creep does not justify more of it. 

 

2. Yes the devs actually are pretty concerned about it, at least for most sets. It's at the point where they actually, legitimately, considered nerfing Archery when they fix the bug with its T9  (not all ticks register right now). But of course certain sets like Fire Blast and Invuln are allowed to have free buffs with no counter-nerfs for some odd reason. 

 

Like, I wouldn't be angry or quit if the T1 requirement was loosened and the game wouldn't be destroyed. But I don't think we need a global difficulty reduction right now (no matter how slight).  

[Aracknight]

Power creep was out the door on live when we learned how to solo giant monsters and task forces.  

[KaizenSoze]

13 minutes ago, FupDup said:

Two counterpoints: 

 

2. Yes the devs actually are pretty concerned about it, at least for most sets. It's at the point where they actually, legitimately, considered nerfing Archery when they fix the bug with its T9  (not all ticks register right now). But of course certain sets like Fire Blast and Invuln are allowed to have free buffs with no counter-nerfs for some odd reason. 

 

Like, I wouldn't be angry or quit if the T1 requirement was loosened and the game wouldn't be destroyed. But I don't think we need a global difficulty reduction right now (no matter how slight).  

  The devs get very concerned about powers not falling within formula ranges. Like your example, that's not power creep in my book, that's exploiting or suffering from a poorly tuned power.

 

  Being able get your nuke by 26, meaning it's available at 21 when exempted down, is serious power creep. I am all for that kind of power creep. 

[KaizenSoze]

19 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Power creep was out the door on live when we learned how to solo giant monsters and task forces.  

Though the devs might surprise us, the mother of all power creep, Incarnates, has not changed a bit since live.

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, KaizenSoze said:

 Being able get your nuke by 26, meaning it's available at 21 when exempted down, is serious power creep. I am all for that kind of power creep. 

In that case, the power level of a maxed out character isn't any higher just by getting their nuke earlier. Usually this just means switching around the order of powers in leveling rather than gaining more powers at the end. 

 

Removing the T1 requirement of Tough/Weave however would give almost everybody an extra power pick. It can be debated just how large or small of a buff that would be, but it is a flat buff to everybody at max level. 

[biostem]

With IOs, defense is thrown around way too liberally...

[Aracknight]

41 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Though the devs might surprise us, the mother of all power creep, Incarnates, has not changed a bit since live.

Incarnates are arguably easier to get, at least the Incarnate Experience is at least.  Theres also a few more power choices in incarnates than there were presunset.  But power creep a is not power creep b i guess.

[KaizenSoze]

38 minutes ago, FupDup said:

In that case, the power level of a maxed out character isn't any higher just by getting their nuke earlier. Usually this just means switching around the order of powers in leveling rather than gaining more powers at the end. 

 

Removing the T1 requirement of Tough/Weave however would give almost everybody an extra power pick. It can be debated just how large or small of a buff that would be, but it is a flat buff to everybody at max level. 

The game pre-level 30ish is much harder than 50. Yin TF are very different now, my default difficultly level +2. Because everyone has access to their T8/9s. I am enjoying this change, because running at a higher difficultly generally requires more from the players. Before page five, folks would never run +2 Yin because it was tedious. That IMO is power creep. 

 

Also, have easier access to power does not mean you can effectively use it. For instance, you might not have enough endurance to run the power or slots to make it worth running. Adding easier access to weave and another power doesn't mean that can be used effectively.

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Aracknight said:

 

Don't infer or assume you know what I mean.  Given how vehemently you and your cadre of  banner waving balance and spirit of the devs cadre disapprove of every idea you dont like as if its your goddamn profession.  You all squat in this forum and impose your will, in the name of balance, on anything you dont collectively approve of, with insight you dont have, and then have the audacity to tell me that 2 powers giving more than 3 powers is fair and balanced and fine?  

 

Its funny, but i read somewhere that the boards are not the game, and most dont even read them.  I wonder how many people would just shrug, break out mids, and figure it the fuck out.

 

I'm not often drive away from things i enjoy.  I enjoy city of heroes.  Today, im privately grateful that it shutting down for a decade delayed its descent into the toxic land you, and people like you, who rise up to battle, like some fucking crusade, because some gamer doesnt know how wrong they are on the internet. 

 

You don't disagree with people, you try to fucking *correct* them.

 

 

 

You know, trying to convince your audience to change their position from the current state to your new proposed state is Ill served with this type of tactic.

 

The onus rests with the person trying to persuade for a change, not on the audience to defend the current majority state. How have you syllogistically overcome objections? How have you proposed improvements with evidence? How have you innoculated against objection? How have you considered channel interference of your message?

 

If your entire argument is couched in unsupported opinion, personal preference and tactics that involve hyperbole, innuendo or straw man statements, you may not find a receptive audience.

 

Regardless, you have changed my no vote to...

 

HARD no vote.

 

So, you were successful, just not quite in the way you hoped; however, this does teach us a great lesson about how to change minds.

[honoroit]

hard? yes vote!

 

its about fun, options, and the fact that tough/weave are masked by a crappy brawl replace.

 

sorcery lets you at a combo teavel power. hasten. (full stop)

 

its legacy biting us and people decrying any change suggestion as power creep.

 

let vines grow over it, I say. its supposed to be fun.

 

what are you balancing for? what content needs kick in the way of tough/weave?

 

it doesnt, and all i hear is belligerent clinging to what is in place.

 

(popular marvel super hero)

 

-- honoroit, the power creeper

[Aracknight]

14 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

You know, trying to convince your audience to change their position from the current state to your new proposed state is Ill served with this type of tactic.

 

The onus rests with the person trying to persuade for a change, not on the audience to defend the current majority state. How have you syllogistically overcome objections? How have you proposed improvements with evidence? How have you innoculated against objection? How have you considered channel interference of your message?

 

If your entire argument is couched in unsupported opinion, personal preference and tactics that involve hyperbole, innuendo or straw man statements, you may not find a receptive audience.

 

Regardless, you have changed my no vote to...

 

HARD no vote.

 

So, you were successful, just not quite in the way you hoped; however, this does teach us a great lesson about how to change minds.

Huh.  You must be the horse they rode in on.

[Rudra]

Personal attacks do not help you. Please stop.